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another repulsive thing ive discovered in the history of vaccines..
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Just discovered? That's routinely taught in A-level biology now.
If the cells of the late Henriette Lacks can give us a cure for cancer, the only thing I will say against it is that her children and grandchildren should have been treated better than they have been. Which is what I already say, cure or not.
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Taught in biology since when? When I went through uni and did units in human biol, there was never any teaching on this.. so you mean to tell me they are now brainwashing children at school to think this sort of thing is ok?? each to their own i guess.. but this sort of thing in science imo just goes against all common sense and good reason and is totally unethical.. the other thing to say against it - perhaps she should have been asked for her consent before her cells were taken and used in such a manner... there's no justification really.
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Well, we did it in my biology degree many, many years ago, I know it has been taught for a couple of years at least as an A-level biology ethics thing... it is unethical but then so is most of the world, at least this may have a positive outcome.
I should have been asked for consent before being carved up, yet no-one thought to do that. Consent and doctors just don't happen, IME. That's the medical world and it won't change very soon.
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Haven't actually read the links but if you're interested in the Henrietta Lacks' life and the HeLa line there is a wonderful book about it. It's called The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.
Yes, it's a travesty that whilst many Doctors, scientists and pharmaceutical companies have profited from her cells her family can't afford medical insurance or basic health care. Interestingly enough the researcher who grew her cells (which was a massive, massive breakthrough in medical research) never profited from them - he gave them away for free (and the medium they grew in). He was given cells from many dead patients the HeLa cells were special because they grew and because of them we understand all sorts of things about cells we never would have known. FWIW there is still a question over the ownership of discarded body tissue.
IMO Tuskegee syphilis experiment was far more awful than removing cells from a dead woman without consent.
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Tinkerbelle, Lady Zaidie lives in the UK, so it would be a different course to what you would be familiar with :)
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Onyx - thanks for the info..
Not sure I needed to read this.. but I guess better to be informed. Ive always wondered about this exact thing -what happens to my blood when Ive had a blood test after they've done the tests. Especially with the whole technology of cloning these days.. and who knows what other technology they invent in the future, I want my tissues to remain mine and mine only!! This is the exact reason I decided to take my placenta home from the hospital - just a sneaking suspicion it wouldnt be disposed of properly by the hospital..
If this is happening in Australia, I want to know, and I want my tissues back!!! If I was aware of my tissues sitting in a lab somewhere, I would be absolutely furious and walk straight into that lab and retrieve them myself, and slap the researchers in the face in the process!! Makes me want to go and do a bit of research...
I dont agree with this sort of thing AT ALL. What peeves me off the most is that the medical field is so quick to shoot any researcher down whose study does not meet ethics requirements (as in the case of Wakefield), but then they do these diabolical unethical ridiculous disgusting apalling things in ""medicine"" and think its justified!!! Yes can you tell how angry I am at the thought of this.. and how little trust I have left in the medical field (which is why I started studying naturopathy). Having suffered a similar (very rare) illness to Henrietta Lacks myself, I would be devastated, appalled and feel absolutely sick if my cells were being used in a vaccine being injected to billions of people around the world every day.
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If that shocks you...you might also be interested in the fact those bits of cardboard they use when they take the heel ***** samples from your newborns aren't actually thrown out...they are archived and stored for twenty years for research purposes...they will only be destroyed if you specifically ask for it.....now I think THAT is a really scary prospect......
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Although Mel, they can come in useful... Jaidyn Leskie's body was identified using DNA markers from his heel ***** card...
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yeah true....but is all the potential for other less altruistic DNA stuff that bothers me somewhat......
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I hear you Melbel! Funnily enough I was just thinking of that before and wondering about that possibility.. I might just contact my hospital to enquire and ask for it to be destroyed.
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Well, they can keep my pap smear test. That's one package I DO NOT want in the mail. :p
So I'm not sure why it would bother you that your used samples may (but probably not) help in the advancement of disease research. It certainly doesn't bother me - but I'm a blood, bone marrow & organ donor. :D
(And the HeLa samples were taken in the 1950's, when it was ethical, even if it's not now. Your outrage appears to be about 60years belated)
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Tinkabelle, if you don't want your tissue used you should write that on your consent forms because legally your discarded tissue probably doesn't belong to you. I don't know of an Australian trial about it but if you google John Moore you will see that he tried to claim profits on research using his tissue and he lost the case.
Can I ask... hypothetically, if one of your loved ones or you was dying of cancer and they offered you a new treatment that was still in the trial stage would you refuse because it would mean that your tissue became theirs.
I understand that on a very basic level the thought of someone else patenting your blood cells and profiting from it is kind of discomforting but TBH if my unwanted tissue saved lives I would be ok with it. Should an artist who used something from your bin to make a sculpture have to share the profits/intellectual rights with you? To me tissue use is a similar issue - to me it's useless abut after some work it might be something else.
BTW - as far as I know the more important cell line in vaccinations comes from a fetus that was aborted in the 60's. Feel free to correct me because I'm not 100% sure....
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I am confused about why it would bother you if it's to help save a life
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I am confused about why it would bother you if it's to help save a life
Exactly!!!! I am quite happy to give up anything I don't need if it could save someone's life. That's why I am an organ donor. As soon as I have popped this baby out I am putting myself on the bone marrow registry. I think there are way more improtant things to worry about than what happens to a bit of our blood or tissue.
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I am confused about why it would bother you if it's to help save a life
It's not so simple as that. In the years after taking tissue form Henrietta Lacks they also took tissue from her family and conducted tests on them without informing them about why. Her family only found out the truth by accident.
The research that they did in the Nazi death camps is still used today. It has saved lives but you know what it still bothers me.
Informed consent is one of the cornerstones of modern medicine. IMO informed consent should also cover what will happen to any tissue that is collected/discarded.
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And THAT onyx, is the crux of it for me, I have no problem being an organ/tissue donor, bacause that is MY CHOICE. the problem here is an ethical one in that some/most are given no choice.
I certainly had no idea about any of this before reading this thread!
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The research that they did in the Nazi death camps is still used today. It has saved lives but you know what it still bothers me.
Informed consent is one of the cornerstones of modern medicine. IMO informed consent should also cover what will happen to any tissue that is collected/discarded.
No body can deny that what the Nazi's did was horrific and wrong in every sense of the word. But again - over 60 years ago. The standard has quite obviously changed! In addition to that: the HeLa samples weren't forced, they were taken in the process of treatment. Just consent was not given for their purpose. I guess one could argue that is a kind of force-by-ignorance. Definitely very different to the Nazis.
I still don't know why it's an issue to recycle something that would otherwise be thrown in the bin?
So if there was an option on the form to agree to use your tissues for research, should it then be broken down into catagories? "I agree for my tissues to be used in research to help kittens, but not puppies?" Or cancer, but not genetic diseases. or austism but not muscular dystrophy? Where does the line get drawn?
Isn't it simpler to just not chuck it in the bin, but to just use it?
In addition to that - how do you think they 'destroy' your samples. I'll give you the tip: it's not usually by incineration, but more likely just going to the dump. I'd rather my cast offs be used for something than rot in a hole.
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And you are FREE to make that choice entreat, but just because you feel that way doesn't mean everyone else should. And I disagree, it's not completely different to the Nazi's at the very crux of the issue, which is a sense of entitlement justified under the banner of the "greater good", as the greater good is a subjective perspective.
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The issue here is one of consent, as STARRYSKY has mentioned...
I am confused about why it would bother you if it's to help save a life
I still don't know why it's an issue to recycle something that would otherwise be thrown in the bin?
Onyx has raised some important points, however for some people there are spiritual considerations... Not everyone views the world like Descartes.
Not only that.. if you are happy with your cancer cells being collected and having them contaminate vaccines that are then injected into people all around the world and you think thats helping save lives, then that's your perogative (one of the articles I posted previously talks about that contamination). IMO however, I can't really see how such practices can lead to good health, its illogical.
BTW - as far as I know the more important cell line in vaccinations comes from a fetus that was aborted in the 60's. Feel free to correct me because I'm not 100% sure....
Yes this is correct from what Ive read, and they are used to make the MMR and chickenpox vaccines. I think some of the codes for them are WI-38, PER-6, HEK-293, MRC-5 and IMR-90 cells. You can get info direct from the manufacturer websites. On the package inserts that come with the vaccines, I think, from memory, they are called 'human diploid cell lines.'
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What about the spritiual considerations of leaving your tissues samples at the dump next to a rotting banana? Gross. Or burned alive in an incinerator? or all those stray hairs that fall off your head & get emptied out with the other dander in the vacuum cleaner? Lost & lonely (but have a courageous & heart-felt reunion with your tissues samples next to the rotting Banana, if the fates have their way).
So you advocate that your tissues should be thown out & not used. If you disgarded some trash in a bin & I collected that trash before it went to the dump, you don't get any say in whether I should use it for good or evil. It's my trash now.
Same same, but different?
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Some people are comfortable with donating organs and or tissue some people aren't. Not being comfortable with donating your discarded tissue is just as valid as being comfortable with it. Arguing that people who for religious, ethical or other reason aren't comfortable should just suck it up is just a shade too dictatorial for my tastes. Personally, if a person is happy for tissue to be used in cancer research but not in ART research, then I beleive that should be respected.
The disposal of medical waste is fairly tightly regulated in Australia. If a hospital is dumping medical waste with bananas it is violating state laws in every state of Australia. Me, I have no issues with my body or any of its tissues composting next to a banana.
FWIW there are options for secure garbage disposal for those people who care about such things.
