Struggling, and not struggling, all at once!

Firstly, omg I have a baby! :lol: :dance:

Now that I've got that out of the way...breastfeeding isn't going exactly how I'd hoped yet. I know it's still early days, but I do find it hard that I'm not a 'natural'. I had a totally empowering and natural birth (aside from some gas in the ambulance and a touch more when I got to the hospital), and discharged the same day. DD was attaching okay during our feeds at the hospital and was getting heaps of wet nappies etc. Since she was born though, her attachment pretty much declined every day, from getting on okay and sucking well, to just nipple sucking and nipple kissing/licking, to the point where simply won't get any part of me in her mouth, and cries when placed at the breast and gets really worked up :( She doesn't have any tongue tie, and she has a nice strong suck otherwise. It seems like maybe her mouth is a little small...I have big boobs and big nipples, which are a bit flat as well I guess. She also seems to have a bit of an issue with her neck that my mum and my midwives all noticed too, so we're taking her to a chiro on Thursday, so hopefully that might give us some answers.

We started with hand expressing into a spoon and spoon feeding her, but her appetite got too great for that. Then I moved to hand expressing into a little medicine cup, and we've been cup feeding her ever since. A few nights ago a lovely friend leant me a breast pump, and since then I've been pumping away. So I guess at this stage we're exclusively expressing :( Not what I had imagined, but I know it's certainly not the worst thing ever. On one hand I'm sad that she isn't getting food on my breast, on the other, I'm happy that I'm producing loads of milk. Im expressing every 2 hours or there abouts, and each session gives me more and more. Started with an average of maybe 40-50ml, then it hovered around 70ml per session...today I got 140ml in one sitting :) So I know I have milk...DD knows it's there, she roots at the breast, but once I try to put her on (regardless of position atm) she just lies there. At least she's not screaming anymore I guess, because now I try her on the breast before and after each session of expressing, so she'll mainly just doze at the breast.

Ugh, this post doesn't even have a point :doh: Just feels good to get out I guess. I just want her to feed from my boobs, not a little plastic cup :(

Firstly, congratulations on your beautiful girl!!

My God it's tricky trying to breastfeed with your first baby! I had a tough time. But you are doing great. Well done on feeding her from a cup instead of going to a bottle, you must have done some reading to prepare, awesome :) That will prevent any nipple confusion issues.

The most important thing is to see a LC ASAP!!!!! Please!! They will help and tell you what you need to do and get her to attach properly. So make an appointment asap. Maybe ask barb for a good reccomendation.

For now, have you tried different holds like the football hold, lying down, having her vertical on your tummy, doing baby-led attachment, etc. Have you tried feeding in the bath when she's nice and relaxed? Or feed her when she's just waking up and all sleepy and relaxed?

I think going to the chiro is a great idea because maybe she's sore from birth and it hurts her to lie the way she needs to when feeding.

For now, try not to worry. You are making lots of milk for her and feeding her the good stuff. You WILL be able to breastfeed. You can sort it out and you'll be BFing her in no time. It's just a bit hard at the start and you will work it all out soon :hug:

Hi,

You will go on to breastfeed her fine - but you need help. You need to see an LC who will be able to help the two of you get back together. My guess is she got a little lethargic there for a while when she wasn't getting enough milk - she was just on her Lplates. Now she is getting plenty of milk, she will be a lot more alert and organised. Let me know where you live (by PM if you want) and I will try to help you out with an LC

I probably don't have much more to add than to say some babies need LOTS of help to get their act together with attachment in the early days. I didn't realise this til my third child was born (she had perfect attachment from birth, unlike her brothers). An LC will definitely help you help her :)

DS was the same. I used to "tease" (as instructed by a midwife) him by running my nipple over his top lip down to his chin til he opened his mouth, then whacked it in XD
Definitely see an LC NOW and don't wait. Breastfeeding is hard and I don't think anyone is a natural, so please don't worry about that part!

Some great advice already, hun. Go with it, and my suggestion is practice, practice, practice! Emily would do the same thing as a baby, 'refusing' the boob, and I just gave up and bottle-fed her - Hayley was a little champ when it came to the boob but there were some tricky days when I'd have to stick to my guns and refuse her bottles in order to make her realise the boob was where it was at ;) You're doing fantastically, it's so awesome that you have so much milk already (woohoo!!), Isla just needs a little help working out how to get it from you. Babies can be 'lazy' at times and go with what works for them as far as putting in as little effort as possible, especially when they're sleepy or hungry - she may be finding cup-feeding 'easier' for her as she doesn't have to try, kwim? Helle's 'teasing' tip was one that worked for me and Hayley, the biggest thing I found was just CONSTANT boob - keep it out, keep it there in front of her and keep trying. She will kick up a fuss for a while, but will soon learn that suckling at your breast is the way to get fed, itms. Good luck hun, keep up the great work! Congrats again :)

I will second what everyone else said - see an LC, and keep trying!!

I was EE pretty much from day 3. My one biggest regret with Pie is that I gave up too easily. I didn't know any success stories - and I really needed them, to know that it would be ok. And I canned it after a few weeks, but I have since read so many stories of babies who went back to the breast even months later.

Umm, so my point is :lol: - keep trying - it's worth it. Not saying it will take months, she might just need a few days.
I was told to do lots of skin to skin, if you can take a few days to lie around with her. You will both get there :hug:

Keep at it and don't be hard on yourself!!! I found BF took a concerted effort for both girls over the first few months - simply a matter of both of us working it out together the only difference was the second time I knew that. Well done PZ and congrats on the arrival of your gorgeous girl. xxx

When things started to go a bit haywire with DS (another baby with totally perfect attachment at birth then a few days later - pfft) I'd go back to skin on skin and put him between my breasts, he'd work his way across and attach and suck away. I also just let him work it out himself, he'd attach and come off and re-attach, he got grumpy when I interfered, so unless it was hurting I just let him go for it. I actually tried it a few days ago to see if he remembered, he gave me a look like ''do I look like a newborn to you?'' but then he attached and was grinning away.

Oh another thing I used to do was express some milk onto my nipple, so even if he licked that off it was still associated with the breast?

It does get loads easier, you can do it :)

Hi PZ, just wanted to lend you some support and encouragement with BFing ... in my experience the initial stage of learning to BF was the most stressful part of having a new baby.
My DS1 was born at 2.9kg and it took us about 4-5 weeks to establish BFing. He was so little and a tad jaundiced, so he got tired very quickly and just didn't really want to BF. I kept trying him on the boob at each feed, but ultimately I ended up giving him EBM in a bottle. This went on for a while - some feeds he attached ok, other feeds were terrible. Then one day, prob four weeks after he was born, voila ... we "both" got the jist of it and never looked back. I BFd him over 13 months. It is something you both have to learn to do - it's not easy but it's worthwhile if you can.
Good luck!

Congrats babe! Sounds like you are doing a fab job!!!!!

I'm also going to say see a LC asap! But in the meantime, maybe try a nipple shield. If your nipples are flat it might be just what she needs to get going while you wait to see the LC.

I found that by hand expressing a few drops around the edge of the shield and into it before I tried to attach DS was the best way to get get him interested in those early days. HTH

Tried to PM but it's all full!!

Hey mate,

Jenny is the LC at Maribyrnong Council. She's lovely. She came over on Monday and shes back again on Wed. She was very good with my crappy attachment.

I think you need a referral from the MCHN but give her a call direct.

Jenny Climo - 0403 603 644

Keep up the good work.

Fiona


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congrats again!

and i think everyone else has pretty much covered it but i also wanted to say that what i think is that BF may be natural but that doesn't necessarily equate to easy. which is something i made the mistake of thinking. i have read so many stories on here & have my own - shaky starts that go on to be wonderful BFing relationships in some form :hug:

Congratulations again!!! Glad to hear you are enjoying your baby girl so much!

I was also going to suggest the LC. I saw one and she kept me feeding for a lot longer than I would have otherwise ... but take someone with you who is supportive. I found it all too much to take in at the time and DH came with me. He saw what the LC suggested and was able to remember things I had forgotten from the visit. She was really good because she taught me how to hold my breast and position it for my babies mouth. I also have big breasts, big and slightly flat nipples ... it did all work eventually. I have always had a few issues feeding my newborns for that reason, though my first was certainly the hardest. As they grow it gets so much easier :)

Good luck. It sounds like everything is going really well though :)

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Tried to PM but it's all full!!

Hey mate,

Jenny is the LC at Maribyrnong Council. She's lovely. She came over on Monday and shes back again on Wed. She was very good with my crappy attachment.

I think you need a referral from the MCHN but give her a call direct.

Jenny Climo - 0403 603 644

Keep up the good work.

Fiona


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:hug: Thank you! I'll definitely give her a call.

Big :grouphug: to everyone. Love the support here. Definitely going to get onto a LC! We've been having the midwives visit every day since we left hospital, so they've been helping lots with any questions we have and showing me lots, and we have our doula helping us. Our midwives are really hoping that the chiro will be able to help lots, and the plan is after the appointment to spend the entire day in bed doing skin to skin, and one of our midwives will pop around in the arvo to see how things are going.

Barb, we're currently in Footscray :)

Can someone please explain what exactly a nipple shield is/does? Where can I get one?

ETA Also, DH is being the most amazing support, encouraging me on, getting the pump ready for me, labelling all the milk etc.

They have a heap of different Medela nipple shields at Baby Bunting near Highpoint. Not sure about other brands.

We can start a crap attachment support group! I'm sure we will both get there.


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Can someone please explain what exactly a nipple shield is/does? Where can I get one?.

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They're basically a silicon thing that goes over your nipple and around the aereola to protect it when you're feeding. Bubs suction draws the nipple out into the nipple part (really technical here hey!) and allows them to feed and attach easily. I also found having inverted nipples, that over time using the nipple shield allowed DS to correct my nipples.

You can get them at the chemist and baby shops. I found the medella one (which they gave me in hossy) the best because it had the biggest part for the nipple to go in so more was being sucked through and bubs was stimulating more of the aereola (sp) as he fed. But, I found them really hard to find. The chemists generally seemed to stock Avent (which were ok) and Pigeon (too small IMO) brands. But some of the big baby stores had the medella ones.

My LC gave me some great tips on using them, which were to express milk around the outside (so that when you put it on it will stick in place a bit) and a little into the nipple part too. This way bubs can smell and taste the milk and is more inclined to give it a shot.

HTH. For me they were the difference between being able to BF and not. But you might find that with a chiro and LC visit you get everything sorted quickly. If not, don't rule out the shields, because like I said they were difference between feeding and expressing for us.

I was about to suggest same as FabFiona get council LC she is great and free of charge!!!

Otherwise you can get appt at breastfeeding centre at RWH or speak to your mws re an LC from hospital!

Congrats again PZ. You're doing a great job and it's good to hear (read?) you're still thinking positively despite tackling a few very normal obstacles :)

I had flat nipples too and a very sleep baby (who was useless at attaching, grew tired sucking as she was so little - 2.9kg - and constantly fell asleep while on the job :rolleyes:) so I understand what you're experiencing. I found that expressing really helped to bring my nipples out so I never ended up using a nipple shield (although I have several friends who have had a lot of luck with them and I agree, Medela seem to be the best from what I hear) and once DD got bigger and stronger from all her BF and top ups (we did EBM in a bottle from about 2.5-3 weeks), my nipples stayed 'perky' (for want of a better word!) and attachment improved dramatically.

I too saw a LC when we first realised we had issues and she was a god send! That will really help you out. Your milk supply sounds great so at least that's something you don't have to worry about. Remember that your DD is getting all that goodness to help her grow bigger which will definitely aid her sucking technique. Keep trying her at the breast though despite the fussing. It sounds like she may have already worked out the 'easy' way to get her milk so you need to remind her where it's coming from. Skin on skin really works a treat and a day in bed with lots of breast snuggles will do you both the world of good. I noticed a huge difference with our feeding after a solid day in bed together :)

Although BF is natural it's often difficult for a lot of women and it can be very stressful but know you're not alone and what you're experiencing is common. Also know that many women, despite issues in the early days, go on to have a wonderful BF relationship. DD and I went to hell and back with a whole array of BF related issues but things finally fell into place around the 10-12 week mark and I'm pleased to say I BF her until she was 2 weeks shy of 1 year :D

You will get there hon :hug:

This may sound weird, but have you tried changing the direction you're coming at her mouth from? I tried the running-nipple-up-and-down thing, and it worked a little... Until I discovered Amelia usually prefers it to slide in from the side of her mouth :-/

Everything else I wanted to say has already been said, so I'll just say this:

YOU CAN DO THIS! We all know how determined you are to do the best thing for Isla. Even when you feel like giving up, keep that in mind. We're all behind you 100%.


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you've been given lot's of great advice so I will keep this brief

• try and focus on one feed at a time... even if the next feed is in an hour :D
• a day in bed after the chiro sounds really helpful. I found this newborn stage the hardest part of breastfeeding
• while breastfeeding is natural it is still a skill that has to be learned by both of you, just like walking.

:hug: rest when you can

Hey Pumpkin,

Firstly congratulations on the arrival of your DD :cheer:

Sorry to hear that you are struggling with BF. The good news is that most people get it sorted. I'm glad you got the breast pump as that will be key to keeping up your supply so you are in with a rocking chance. I know the disappointment you must be feeling as I was there too.

One mistake I made in setting up BF was moving to the bottle when we got home (but I'm not sure about the other options, perhaps a supply line??). My DS developed a really strong preference for sucking at the bottle, that along with a few other issues were too hard to shift. We tried for 9 weeks, until the reality hit (after a trip to the ED for poor fluid intake) he needs to be fed in a positive way. Then we became EE, not my preferred option by any means but I preferred to give him BM over formula whilst my milk was still flowing. It's fantastic that you are giving DD breast milk, not ideal I know but take some heart that you are doing the best you can with your circumstances.

Crossing my fingers that you get it sorted and you'll be on your merry BF way really soon.

Just checking up on you PZ. How's it going?

Congratz PZ!

Your BFing journey so far sounds the same as mine word for word!

Just to give you some hope we are fine now. It took us 3 months to fully establish BFing.
We went from hand expressing, to pumping, to a nipple sheild then finally to the nipple!

It will happen! But I know it's sooo frustrating when you just want it to work!

You defo need to find a good LC and see them often, they are so reassuring even if they can't 'fix' the problem for you :D

Re nipple shields... I used them with DS2 and had great success, after a few weeks we moved to exclusive BF. When things went pearshaped with DD2, I asked for shields & was told very firmly that the LCs don't recommend them anymore, that she would actually get in trouble for giving them to me... in hindsight I wish I had just got them anyway!
So, not sure what kind of advice you might get about them... but, as in everything else, do what YOU think is best ;)

We're feeding at the breast via a nipple shield!! Omg, it's beautiful, rewarding...and so much easier than from a cup! Today DD has fed exclusively from my boob...lots of wet nappies, and she's been so happy and contented all day. We've still got a way to go, I can only feed via the shield lying down, but we're working in sitting up, and eventually without the shield! Woohoo!

Oh yay!! Glad to hear it's all coming together beautifully for you :)

woohoo!!

Oh, that is just the best news PZ!!!! :hooray:

That's wonderful news!

Question for all of you wonderful ladies in the know!

Since yesterday my supply has increased even more than it was. I think it was due to being in hospital and not being able to express for 5-6 hours, because since my boobs got so engorged then, they keep getting SO full and hard and sore. Feeding currently only just takes the edge of, but they'll still be hard and sore. When I was pumping I didn't get enforcement, maybe I'd be a bit uncomfy if left for ages, but now it's all the time! So my question is (may seem silly) is it okay to just let DD feed from my boobs and not pump the rest out? I don't want my supply to keep increasing, so I'd rather not pump the rest of my milk, but is it safe to just leave them to settle themselves and their supply, and just let Isla drink what she needs? I had ante-natal mastitis and it was not nice, so I don't want that happening! But I assume people who don't bf just let their boobs do their own thing and their milk will just go away without any problems? So do I need to be pumping after I feed or is it safe to just let my boobs sort themselves out? (And will they?)

i have issues sometimes from being away from jazz during the day when i work but it sorts itself out in the next day id say you milk is still sorting itself out and from wat i remember the first 6 or so weks you body just makes milk without the supply nd demand as such so it should sort itself out good luck and yay to feeding from the boob

Just leave them or just hand express to take the edge off if they are sore or lumpy. If you keep pumping then you will make more milk than what she needs because it's all about supply and demand now.

They will settle down with time either way. I used to feel like I had water balloons in my top!

hand express a little in the shower if you're getting sore or lumpy, but you otherwise should be ok with just letting little Isla feeding ... your boobies should normalise themselves in not too long :)

that being said, I chose to continue expressing as well, to make a stockpile for DS for when I went back to work.

I just read in the latest Essence magazine (ABA quarterly...in which you will find a photo with Yours Truly in it this time!!) a little story about an Aboriginal woman (I'm pretty sure she was Aboriginal) who had problems BFing and the next time she saw a caregiver they asked her how she was going with attachment. She said it was going great and was no longer using nipple shields! The 'fix'? The baby suckled from another woman's breast (another, experienced breastfeeder) and when she went back to mum it was all sorted :)
I am sure that if you were willing to give that a go, there'd be some trusted BB'ers who could help you out there, including me :)
You can also call 1800mum2mum ANY time, day or night, to talk about any issues you're having, even if you have enlisted the help of a LC.
AND, if you get along to your local ABA group meeting next, you'll find at least one person who has had similar issues. I just love my Booby Club - my old one, and the one in my new area (which is an unofficial one, while we wait for a trainee to finish her training).
When DS was born I was subscribed to ABA and had my Breastfeeding Naturally book that became our bible, we used the council LC and within 2 weeks I was at my local meetings. Changed my life and brought people into it who are still here that I just love so much.
As some gorgeous women who were close to me at the time DS was born said, "It just clicks" (tongue tie for 4 weeks, settling into new tongue for about 6 more weeks!). It will fall into place, and hopefully it clicks without you even noticing, so that all of a sudden you realise "Hey, how long has THAT been working?" :hug:

PZ I think it's fine to just leave them if you like unless they get sore and very lumpy or hot and red or something. Then express and try and massage the lumps out. But you can express for comfort if you want to. When I asked the same question barb told me that in these early days your BM production is dictated by hormones not supply and demand yet so if you pump it won't increase your supply :) HTH xx

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PZ I think it's fine to just leave them if you like unless they get sore and very lumpy or hot and red or something. Then express and try and massage the lumps out. But you can express for comfort if you want to.

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Yeah I tend to agree, just do what you need to do to stay comfortable, and if that means expressing a little after each feed then it should be ok. On the plus side it's also great to have a stock of EBM put away in the freezer in case you need it down the track.

So glad to hear the nipple shields are working well for you and Isla. A tip my LC gave me was to hand express a few drops around the edges of the shield to help them stick to your skin, it made life so much easier. I used the shields full time until about 8 weeks when I decided to have another shot at getting DS to attach direct to the breast. I would try after he had had a feed from the first side and wasn't really hungry and easily frustrated. After 3 or 4 goes we got the hang of it. From there we started out doing just one feed on each side directly from the nipple each day and gradually did more and more until about 12 weeks when we were able to drop the shields altogether. For me they made the difference between being able to BF and not, and we went on to feed until 22 months. So I guess what I am trying to say is don't get disheartened, it's wonderful that the two of you are able to establish the breastfeeding relationship and over time you might be able to wean from the shields, but if not that's ok too, I know plenty of women who have gone on to feed with shields for a very long time. HTH

or (depending on where you are) you can express and donate it.