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Things in the sleep department are not flash ATM.
DS 4 months is not sleeping well during the day and waking several times at night. Night is ok but I know he needs more sleep in the day. He then wakes DD 2.5 up and she also needs more sleep.
They are both cranky and need more sleep. Has any one used a sleep school? I'm thinking we may need some help. I'm not doing it for my sleep but I know they need more.
I'm def NOT doing CIO - that's not an option.
Any info would be appreciated!
Kate xo
Hey Kate,
We did sleep school when DS was 17 months old - nearly a year ago now.
I'm not sure what state you're in but I am pretty sure the different 'schools' all follow the same basic principles/philosophy/strategies/approach.
We didn't do/refused the CIO and controlled crying regime but there was a lot of subtle pressure to follow that process while there. I was very adamant though and in the end the staff respected (or maybe just accepted?) our stance. In terms of what we did, I responded each time DS cried or called out for me. I didn't respond to 'lesser' noise ITMS? I did hands on comforting in the cot and we usually ended up sitting next to the cot and then later, at the door. We used the time away from home to cease a variety of other strategies we had been using (all of which worked some of the time, none of which worked all of the time :rolleyes:). The most significant being that we stopped giving him milk overnight (I weaned him overnight at 12 months and still regret that today :( ).
There was some mild improvement with DS in the 4 nights we were there. The staff told me: "He'll be perfect in 6 weeks" as we left. I am still waiting for consistent sleep at night. We stuck with the new range of strategies, in that we didn't go back to giving milk, co-sleeping etc etc. It is just DS.
FWIW, I don't regret trying sleep school. BUT, I also found it a very traumatic environment to be in. The crying at bed time and during the day (extra noise) was messing with DS's day sleeps and going down at night which hadn't previously been issues. So I know it affected him on that level. For me, I found it terribly upsetting to hear upwards of 10-15 babies and toddlers crying (at evening bedtime they were all going down together) and to watch other parents doing a timed CC routine with staff telling them when they could respond, hearing them speak very harshly to their toddlers etc. I am not judging those parents. I want to be clear about that because I heard some absolute horror stories about how often they were waking etc and saw how tired the parents were but I found it very difficult to be around and was so relieved to leave.
Also the food was cr@p LOL!!! One step above hospital food ;)
If I were you, I would call the sleep school or the associated parenting line and discuss their program and what they can offer you with the two kids. I would also talk to your child and family health nurse if he/she is any good. I don't think it can hurt to try (you can always leave early and the school I went to offered an additional 2 nights to everyone, even me, even when they were claiming to see great improvement in DS).
:hug: hun. It's a difficult place to be in.
ETA: I found it was a massive process of information giving to get in and start at the school and I was clear the whole way through that I wanted an opinion from the 'experts' )as they implied they were) about why DS was waking overnight and staying awake for such lengthy periods at a time (up to 2 hours a go back then). He even saw a paed (to claim his stay under medicare all the kids were seen by a paed). No one could or would give me an opinion beyond saying he was bright and alert and probably had trouble switching off. That didn't fit for me because he was going down for day and evening sleeps no worries but could not stay asleep. Anyway I'm getting off track but just wanted you to expect that you will do an interview/questionnaire with your MCHN, you fill out forms and a sleep diary for at least a week, a lengthy phone interview (mine was about an hour I think) then when we got there they interviewed me another 2.5 hours :o I gave them way more than they gave me in the end.
I had someone come to my home when dd was a similar age. It did help improve her settling off for sleeps but she didnt sleep through the night until I night weaned her while pg (heck she still wakes and comes into our bed).
4 months is known for sleep regression...have you looked that up? Even do a search here on bb.
I think they learn sleep associations around this time, so if the feed to sleep for eg they need a feed to resettle after the first cycle.
My ds has started having a dummy for day sleeps which has helped a bit, but he wakes four plus times a night and using my bed for pure survival reasons for me.
Good luck! I hope you find something that works.
Have a look at the queen Elizabeth centre website.
They have podcasts you can download and listen to, and see if that's the kind of approach you're after
Well I've had a more positive experience, so I'll share that one...
I went to sleep school twice, once with each bub. DD refused to sleep consistently day or night and we did a day stay programme, as in just there for one day. DS we were having the troubles over night and I really felt I needed some help as I as so exhausted so we did a residential stay, in for just two nights. The centre also offered a four night programme.
They don't do CIO or CC at all. If the baby cries, you go and settle/soothe. They work with you to establish what, if any, settling techniques have worked for you and then a plan of attack to help the baby settle. If you're out of ideas, they give you some new options. DS was 10mths when I went and was either fed to sleep or he'd be awake but would go to sleep fairly easily. My troubles were when he woke, he just refused to go back to sleep without a feed and then once I fed him he'd still be awake and screaming for hours. So that's what I wanted to work on.
When I said that I fed to sleep some nights, but I didn't have a problem with it (as in I didn't see it as a sleep association that I wanted to change), they didn't push it. They didn't tell me I had to stop feeding to sleep, which I was relieved about. The first night he fed to sleep, then woke around midnight. The MW was there outside his room before I even stumbled out of bed and she helped me try and settle him for an hour or so - he would settle and get drowsy, I'd leave, he'd wake back up and cry again, I'd go back in. After half an hour or so I said I wanted to pick him up and she said "He's your baby. If that feels right to you, you do it. Trust your instincts." Which I found really encouraging. (Said in a nice supportive way, not a nasty "what do I care, he's YOUR baby!!" sort of way) So then I cuddled him for a bit and he still wouldn't settle entirely.
At this point the MW suggested giving him a feed. She said that it had been six hours (bout 1am) since he'd had a feed and it might just settle him down and make him warm and full and send him off to sleep. I agreed, fed him and he zonked out til 7.45am :o
We talked about it the next morning - I was confused as I'd thought that by 10mths, he shouldn't need to feed overnight? And they actually told me that every baby is different and that maybe he just needs an extra feed overnight and that I shouldn't feel bad for feeding him. So the new strategy became try and settle without feeding for as long as I felt able, then I could feed if I wanted. And that's still what I do today - but now that feed overnight has become some time between 5am and 6am and sometimes he still goes back to sleep after, sometimes til 9am!
Also - there were only 5 other babies there and the layout was such that I didn't hear the other babies overnight, unless I really tried, which was great. The frustrating thing for me was DS was mobile, crawling and taking steps, and wanted to be on the go the whole time. He was having two day sleeps but the other, much younger babies, were having like 3 or more, so I spent most of my days chasing him away from rooms where babies were sleeping!
The process for us to get in was a bit less intensive than Kaz's experience - I got a referral from my GP, who basically said "What's his story?" and I said "Frequent night waking, being awake for 3+ hours overnight, not settling" and that was what she wrote in the referral. I then had a 20 minute phone consult where the MW asked about his sleep, I said the same as to the GP and then elaborated that my usual settling techniques weren't working and that I just needed some extra support and assistance overnight. She booked me in, then when I got there, I sat down with one of the MWs on duty that day and we had a brief chat - maybe half an hour? - where we discussed the issues, what I'd tried, what I wanted to fix, and organised our plan of attack. And that was it. We also didn't need to see a paed but it was still covered under Medicare.
TBH the nicest thing about being there was not cooking and cleaning and running around after DD. I missed her and DH terribly though and that was the hardest thing for me being there - I felt very lonely. The staff were lovely and the other parents were nice enough but they were all dealing with their own kids, obviously. So when we had time to chat that was nice, but for the majority of it, I was on my own and I found that really tough, after having two children and DH on me, around me, basically 24/7.
So I'd suggest, if you want to go down this path, do your research carefully and find one that fits, or closely melds with, your parenting philosophies. I found that I felt encouraged by them telling me it was ok to feed him overnight and to work with that, rather than against it. They also support bf beyond 12mths, which I think is good. Pretty much the only gentle parenting thing they don't support is co-sleeping, which is ok for me as that doesn't work for us anyway. They even knew what BLS was when they asked about DS's diet and I explained he'd had purees for about 2 weeks, at which he decided whatever his sister ate would be good enough for him thank you very much, and she said "Oh so you're doing BLS?" and then they gave him BLS appropriate food.
Oh and on that, the food wasn't fine dining but it was healthy, plentiful and best of all, cooked by someone else :D
If you're in Melb I can recommend it to you...
Good luck hun. As Kaz says, it is a difficult place to be in. I hope this has helped!
Great post OP!!
Wow :o I think the place I went to had something like 20 or 22 rooms. All next to each other in a gentle arc type layout and some of the rooms had both baby and toddler in them. The noise was full on at times.:
Definitely research the floor plan and bed numbers Kate.
ETA - forgot to mention that the place I went to was a minimum 4 night stay with extra 2 offered to pretty much everyone on the third day. On the first night, they gave the parent(s) the night off i.e. go sleep in another room away from your babies to sleep through and let the staff follow the plan you had worked out with them. I was not comfortable with this and even though there was lots of pressure and even some amusement (I thought) at my decision I didn't take this up. The second night was an evening off to spend by yourself or with your partner - kind of a date night. DP and I saw a movie and went to dinner. We were gone about 5 hours but I kind of regretted it later because aside from the brief notes I have no idea how they treated DS - I think he slept a lot of the time but there was one or two wake ups. So the third night (by their programme) was the first evening that the parents were actually doing the settling. I didn't realise this 'program' until we were there and it seemed silly to be to take the first 1 and a half nights off. I get that tired parents need sleep but I felt for DS, leaving him with strange people in a strange environment at his age (when separation anxiety was ramping up again) was really counter-productive. I know some of the other parents there really enjoyed that time out though so each to their own.
Oh goodness me Kaz - no wonder you hated the place! Ok maybe you didn't say hated it but anyway... sounds rough :hug:
Yeah we definitely had a good thing with the rooms and the number of kids. It was even better for us in that DS and I had rooms off the main eating area but there was a door I could close and we were shut off from everything. That was a bonus. (ETA - I also had my own bathroom, score! Everyone else had to share... two families per bathroom I think) Otherwise there were rooms that were in closer proximity to other families and babies, but I think only one person commented that she'd been woken up by one of the unsettled bubs crying overnight.
I find it really odd that they send you away for the first two nights. I agree that it would be a bit counter-productive... who knows :dunno:
I pretty much did hate it OP, while also appreciating it as another of lifes experiences and I was also in a hopeful frame of mind that they would be able to help.
For our entire stay there was a mum and her toddler daughter next door. She was around three give or take a few months and she was not sleeping and the mum was beyond exhausted. She had two older kids and I think the lack of sleep had stopped her returning to the workforce it was so bad. This kid would scream for literally HOURS at a time "mummy, mummy, mummy", while mum and the staff member were outside the room giving it longer and longer between contacts. The yelling from the toddler went on and off all night for the first 3 nights with some improvement on the last night we were there (IMO). They were timing her and the staff member was saying, "Ok you can tell her again" (about it being bedtime etc). This regime must have been what the mum wanted to do. The staff were coaching the mum to be tougher and tougher on the little girl. They were spying on her through the window when she didn't realise and at times laughing at the stuff she was doing in her bed, possibly out of boredom (we all checked through the door windows periodically to see when our bubs went off to sleep, write down the time and then creep past them to our own beds)*. The little girl did start to sleep more over the stay and they were taking up the extra 2 days when we left just to practice the new routine a bit more. I look back now and think the little girl may have only been sleeping more through sheer tiredness, rather than 'learning' anything ITMS. I would have been desperate in that mum's shoes and I don't blame her for trying anything but it was really hard to listen to and there were times she woke DS up :( I often think of them and wonder if she is sleeping any better now..........
Sorry Kate, that's probably not what you want to hear and may well be at the extremer end of 'distressing' or 'disruptive' for sleep schools. Definitely use any phone interview you have with them to interview them right back about these types of issues and anything at all that you think may be important or that would be a deal breaker for you. If I'd known in advance what the environment was like, I probably wouldn't have bothered going because it wasn't a good fit for my style (even though I was so tired I was stopping at green traffic lights with DS in the car, I would have investigated other options or made lifestyle changes or something). But obviously there are different approaches and different physical layouts - OP's experience sounds like the total opposite of mine!
ETA - * this didn't work so well with DS as he realised during the first day sleep what I was doing and he would sit quietly in his cot waiting for the cover to move and then he'd start calling out/crying :wall:
Glad you asked the question cos I was wanting to know the same thing. But am also concerned that the answer will be CIO or controlled crying which I don't want to do. Can understand your desperation to find something. At the moment DD will sleep an hour max all day if that! And wake frequently overnight some nights every 20mins. Other nights I'm that tired I feed her to sleep and not even know I'm doing it. And leave the house so tired that I'll leave the back door wide open without shutting or locking it. And other stupid tired things. Just wish DD would sleep but not even cuddling to sleep works with her. Hope you get some good recommendations cos I'm after some to.
We did a 'sleep school' through a local hospital (Sth East Subs Melbourne) for a 4 night stay when DD was approx. 10 mths old. We were referred via our GP and covered under our private hospital cover (just had to pay the excess fee). All meals were included as well as some adult activities such as relaxation/meditation and talking to a psychologist as well as additional follow up appts - if needed.
We did a method of CIO but if at any times we were not comfortable, we did not have to continue. They took all mine & DH family background as well as information on DD & what methods we used to settle her back to sleep/how she was born/due date vs birthdate/method of feeding etc...) One key thing they introduced to us was sleep associations - we really had none except for a sleeping bag & her dummy. So we introduced a toy, music and a 'rollover' feed. We ended up ditching the music just prior to leaving the 'sleep school' as we didn't want to continue that at home. My DD responded within 2 nights. Every night we were required to put her to bed. The first 2/3 nights the mws got up to DD to resettle her & we (DH & I) were able to take a sleeping tablet if we wanted to get a good rest/sleep. We were required to do the rollover feed from memory (DD is 4yo now) and on the 4th & 5th night we were required to resettle DD if she re-woke, which she never did. She does co-sleep with us from time to time (quite frequently atm due to the cold weather) but she goes to sleep straight away most times.
You night want to do some investigating prior to going to a sleep school. My gf used one starting with T and ended up leaving the next day - too rigid for her liking.
I have a program called 'sleep sense' if you want me to e-mail it to you - just PM me your addy.
Thanks ladies! Been out for tea with DH kid free! So I havnt responded till now.
Maybe sleep school isn't entirely what I need? I don't mind DS waking over night to feed - he is only little and goes back to sleep easily. It's his day sleeps. Today he slept in 2 x 45 min blocks and that's it! I know he is tired and gets to tired that he gets beside himself! I just want Sind techniques to help him sleep beter and then feel better.
I'm also finding if difficult once he is asleep yo keep him that way, esecially with a 2.5 yo making noise as kids do!
DD is also being woken when he wakes at night some times and can then rake another 1-1.5 hrs to get her back to sleep and I know she needs more sleep to!
As much as I could do with more sleep I will go without if it means they sleep better and thus feel better.
Thanks so much for all your imput, I'll talk more tomorrow when I'm not on my phone. Xo
I should add that the one I went to has two wings - one for 12mths and under, one for older kids. They keep them apart as their sleep needs are so different, as we'd all now, when they are little compared to as toddlers.
Kaz - that 3yo next door would have been quite traumatic!!
Kate - maybe a day stay would be enough for you, something to consider anyway. It's also relatively easy to get in for day stay, you just need a referral from your MCHN. There is also generally not much of a wait either.
Just want to second OP's suggestion of day stay. Sounds like you might get the info/help you're looking for with that? Much less paperwork too :)
My school also started with T!! :rolleyes: Living in the country I didn't have huge choice without much more travel but if you find one with a philosophy/approach you like it would be worth the extra time in the car.
Just seen this Kate.
How is he doing during the day now?
A is not sleeping well either and the day times are more of a worry for me... Yesterday she had only 12 hours for the whole day and night, 1 x 45 min sleep and the rest were naps either when feeding 5-10 min blocks or tiny sleeps after feeds, only to be woken by MJ each time :wall:
I remember that sleep creates sleep and the lack of sleep during the day is making worse the night times...
I'm not keen for a sleep school, but I am not sure what to do about the days.
Sorry, not helpful at all...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Only just seen this.
We went to the QEC (though not an overnight stay) when DD was 6 months old. It was fantastic and we have never looked back :) She has been a perfect sleeper ever since :)
I used Sleep School when my child was 19 months old. The sleep school was part of a public hospital system. No-one told me before i got there, and no-one expressed told me once i was there, but all the sleep school seemed to do (i saw them do it to every other mother there) was
- put every mother on meds immed
- enforce/bully every mother into using CIO, but called it Controlled Comforting (same result).
- bullied women into weaning, as their hospital policy said weaning happened at 3 months (!!!!). and no, none of the midwives had ever heard of the WHO recc. of "feed until two and beyond".
My child was very traumatised by the two days of enforced weaning they put us through. Her screaming for milk and me bullied into not feeding her. That was heartbreaking.
i had a toddler, in an environment that was not babyproofed, there were no baby gates, and plenty of things she could reach, get into that weren't safe. I had complained about a halogen lamp, on a 2ft high desk, not being safe around walking babies. A day later, she touched it and burnt herself. Pretty light, attractive to a toddler, at her height, of course she's going to touch it one day. The midwives thought i was overreacting and refused to move the lamp, or install a babygate. So many things like this happened. Often when i was told i had to go to a group, and we'll look after your baby. I would come back, and no-one would know where she was. the rabbit warren layout of the place meant you could not see the entire place at one glance, i found it so stressful.
After the two weeks was up, it took a long time for my DD to get over the trauma of being in the sleep school.
The midwives were there 24/7, (on different shifts), so no matter what time of day or night it was, i was consistently harassed about my parenting, as my style of parenting was (and is) Attachment Parenting. They didn't recognise that as such, but all the ways i was parenting my child, i was told, were wrong and had to be changed immed. There was no discussion about this, more of a front of "do it our way or else". I really expected there to be a collaboration of "so your baby won't sleep, here are a range of ways to tackle that" but no.
I was bullied to put my child in a nursery at night, where allegedly, the midwives in their office, would monitor her cries, with the baby monitors. After a few nights, i discovered, the VOLUME of the baby monitors was more often than not, turned down to zero. So no-one was actually monitoring her. I was put in a room more than 50metres away from my child, i couldn't hear her.
During our two week stay, my child was experiencing "teething acid poos". They had happened to her before, so i knew what to do, and i was actively stopped from attending to her. So she got burn marks on her bottom, from sitting in the poo too long. Screaming her head off, me outside her door, being stared down by two midwives, who yelled at me when i went against their orders, and went in there to change her, rescue her from the acid poo. Even when i showed them her skin, they still thought i was wrong to have gone in there. According to them, i was stopping the program working, and wasn't co-operating, because i went in there, before 7am the next morning. I broke their routine.
There was zero acknowledgement that i did anything right as a mother, only condemnation of my parenting (using Attachment and Conscious Parenting). I look pretty conservative, but my bf-ing a 19month old, using cloth nappies, no dummy, co-sleeping, comfort sucking instead of Panadol when she fell over - all these things were written up on my file, discussed at meetings, as things they were working on to stop me doing. And the fact i didn't want to take meds (because it would affect my child thru the breastmilk), was another mark against me. I was in a daze, baffled by so much negativity, every day went by, i doubted myself and my parenting more and more.
But i met a women who took her baby to the sleep school (also run by same public hospy) for babies UNDER 12 months. She had a totally different experience. Her parenting style was respected. The staff collaborated with her, to come up with solutions. She was treated respectfully.
I would have loved to have had a similar experience, to her. My experience, felt like a nightmare i could not wake up out of. I kept thinking, it will get better tomorrow, i must give this a chance. But it didn't. I gave up at two weeks. Could not take anymore.
Jakabella
at the four month mark, in retrospect, i wish i had had a baby hammock (for put down sleeps) and a baby sling (for sleeping on me, hands free) to help with my child's sleeping.
have you tried "white noise" in the baby's room? (a radio, on low, not quite on a station)
bath before nap time?
swaddling for naps? (so baby can't biff themselves and wake themselves up)
(i don't know what you HAVE tried, so could be well suggesting things you already do/have done.)
If you have the night sleep sorted (young babies have tiny tums, so will wake for feeds), the suggestion to have a "day session" at a sleep school, sounds a good idea. I did a day session at a MCHN, their suggestions were the white noise, really tight swaddling, tight sheets in cot. I coudln't replicate it at home, as they had a really good practical cot (sides very easy to use), and mine was awkward for me to use, i think i roused my bub each time i tried to raise the sides, and being short, i coudln't just put in her over the sides.
if i had my time over, i would have bought a recliner for the baby's room, cos i spent so much time in there, if i had somewhere comfy to feed her and cuddle, maybe she would have slept on me, i would have slept and we BOTH would have gotten sleep. (i'm talking over one here. For the first year, we used bassinet next to my bed and co-sleeping, then cot in my room, then cot in her room, mixed with co-sleeping.
OMG Gigi, what you experienced was beyond horrendous! I am so sorry you and your DD went through that. Makes my experience look like a literal walk in the park on a sunny day.
:hug:
Jakabella,
We went to a sleep school in Kooweerup just for a day visit. It was fairly gentle and more about teaching settling techniques than anything else. My dd has silent reflux and because she was held constantly as a newborn, even when she was sleeping because if we laid her down she would wake screaming in pain she struggled to fall asleep on her own in a cot. So we went to sleep school and they first took bubs into a dark room with soft music and did some settling. She went off to sleep with their techniques but only slept for 1/2hr and they had a raised cot so her reflux didn't worry her. We were basically taught however we settle her in our arms do the same in the cot, rock, pat, shhh etc and then gradually decrease it. I was happy with what they taught us but it didn't help her sleep. she could go to sleep but wouldn't stay asleep and wouldn't resettle once she had woken. She sleeps only one sleep cycle during the day even still now. It has pretty much just taken months of patience, consistency and gentle parenting to get her to the point she is at now. She is 7months old and will now put herself to sleep, if she wakes in the night she will usually put herself back to sleep if she's not hungry but she won't sleep longer than 1 sleep cycle during the day. I did the gradual process of slowly decreasing the patting, then would just sit with her with my hand on her chest gently rocking her in the cot. Now I put her in and she goes to sleep. I'm proud that we have never done cry it out, never has bedtime been a distressing time for her except for when she couldn't sleep because of the reflux.
Sorry that was of no help whatsoever because you want bub to sleep more during the day, I don't have any answers for that. And my daughter went through a period around 4 months where she woke hrly through the night, this lasted 6 weeks. Once we started solids she was alot better. She now sleeps through. All i can say is hang in there it will get better and no matter what don't let anyone convince you that you need to do something you're not comfortable doing, health professionals don't know your bub like you do.
Sorry I couldn't help but it will get better :)
Wow sounds like some awful experiences!
Mine was a good one. We went with Caden when he was just 11 weeks old and it saved our lives (literally I expect, we were both pretty depressed by then). DS#1 just screamed almost constantly when he was awake, and was murder to get to sleep. I suffered this from around 5 weeks, and it didn't stop until we went to sleep school. With doctors prescribing medications that I just wasn't comfortable with, I felt it was the best option.
It was a gentle approach, and maybe easier given that DS was just so unsettled that if he cried in bed versus crying in my arms, what difference? Given I was near exhaustion, and borderline PND, I was willing to take more of their advice.
So we put him in bed, and let him cry for a minute or so. Then I would go in and either pick him up or comfort him in his cot. If he got too out of control (you know that cry) then I would just pick him up. They taught me the difference between a pain cry and an insistent cry as DS would cry as if you were hacking off his arm, but would stop the instant I picked him up. Pain would not switch off so suddenly.
It wasn't easy, and was emotionally draining, but after day three, at home in his cot, he fell asleep by himself WITHOUT CRYING for the first time, and after that was a dream to put down. The kid just wanted space to sleep, and really needed me to back off and give that to him.
So for us the experience was a turning point, and even now DS is an awesome sleeper. I noticed other mums from my mothers group had difficulty later on because they had to go through the same thing with older bubs. It was hard to do it at the start, but easier in the long run.
Make up your own mind of course. I have recommended sleep school to lots of mums with problems. I even went back myself this time as I wanted some tips on letting DS#2 get to sleep. They were very considerate of my desire not to let him cry, and I pretty much did what I did at home, but with him in the cot instead of in my arms (music, rocking the cot, picking him up for a cuddle if things got too intense, etc). So far so good as even that has shown DS that it is ok to fall asleep in the car or pram. That on its own is great because he would shriek like a banshee in the car.
Ok, now I am rambling, but for my two cents, it was a great experience and I thank them for my sanity!
wow, dragonbub, i wish i had scored a sleep school like yours.
OP can i ask which sleep school you attened? Thank you :):