I wanna know a few things :D Please....

Now, I am a vaccinater, I feel for my parenting style that is what I feel comfortable doing... But I am all for freedom of choice and people making their own choices! If that is too choose not to vaccinate then that is their choice... I'm all about choices :D But after a discussion with some of my fellow nursing buddies yesterday, it seems that I am alone in this stance. So I want to hit them with some hard cold facts, some research...

So... Tell me about

- Delayed vaccinatation: most specifically the enzyme (can't think of the name) that is developed until the age of 2 (the reason that most medications are for 2yo or over)
- herd immunity and where it lies in the non-vaccinataton etc?
- research that shows that immunisation does harm
- and what's in the immunisations (particular mercury etc)

Thanks ladies/gents HIT ME :D

Ahem - Come on help a lady out! You know you want to !!!!

Are there anything in the articles on the Main site?? I don't know any of the answers hun I am pro vacc (but respectful of peoples decisions not too).

I believe there was an outbreak of whooping cough down here around the time DD was born so I guess herd immunity didn't work :dunno:

On phone so I will come back and elaborate but things to keep in mind...

Delayed vaccination- doesn't make sense to me because illnesses like whooping cough are deadly for babies so it is important vaccinate them asap. Also before 8 months babies have some passive immunity from the placenta as well (as breastfeeding) but from 8 ish months the placental antibodies recede and baby only has their own immunity. Breastfeeding is good but offers zero protection from bacterial infections like whooping cough.

Herd immunity only works if a certain majority of the population are vaccinated and it functions by stopping the spread of the illness, so that those more at risk such as babies elderly and pg women are protected.

Vaccines no longer use mercury as far as I know.

Bbl

It's all really complicated stuff unfortunately.

Research is complicated and the when researchers aren't really careful with their method data can be disputed or even twisted. Then there are political and industry biases but mostly it's just that it's difficult to test even slightly subjective health effects in large numbers of people.

If you want to know about subjective health effects ask a doctor about diagnosis of whooping cough

I'm interested in hearing about this too, from some anti- or delay- vaccers :)


Sent from my iPhone so forgive the speelung misstacks ;)

Thanks peeps ;) anyone else ?


Love MN ;-)

Myself all my kids are needled up....as i am myself.

We had an outbreak round my area with whooping cough so im glad my boys were safe.

Its alll complicated, one side says this and the other says well no its that.

I have to say. Since doing my last Prac I am kinda really glad I have vaccinated kids. I didn't really understand the extreme nastiness of the diseases we are vaccinating against. But reading and research has opened my eyes.


Love MN ;-)

MN, I just found this thread as I was about to head off to bed, so I'm responding now to subscribe so that hopefully I can come back with some info for you.

So far neither of my kids have had any vaccines (2yrs4mths and almost 9months), but they are in what I feel is a "high risk" group for unwanted side affects. If they weren't I would probably vaccinate, but for now I don't feel that the benefits outweigh the risk for my kids in particular. I'll come back to elaborate :)

Look forward to it lovely xoxox


Love MN ;-)

I tried to gather some info while the kids slept :) Unfortunately I've found that my access to the Uni's journal database is no longer active (I guess I should feel lucky it took them this long since being a student to remove my access, lol), so I've tried to put in sources as often as possible, but don't shoot me for the bits and pieces that don't have sources. I wish I could have put in more actual journal articles (I'm kicking myself for not saving them while I had access to them!).

I tried to give you a bit of info about all the vaccines in our National Vaccination Program. It would have been more but kidlets are now awake ;)



National Vaccination Program (from 0-4years) include:
5 x Hep B
4 x Diphtheria, Tetanus, Whooping Cough (acellular pertussis) (DTPa)
4 x Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)
4 x Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis IPV)
3 x Pneumococcal conjugate (7vPCV)
3 x Rotavirus
2 x Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR)
Meningococcal C (MenCCV)
Chickenpox (varicella) (VZV)

That's at least 27 vaccines by the time a child is 4.

Hep B
- Hep B is generally found amongst young adults who are sexually active or IV drug users.
- A survey of 600 doctors in the UK revealed that 50% of them refused the vaccine for themselves despite being in a high risk group. The cited reasons included a lack of trust in the vaccine and doubt of it's benefits. (Australian Vaccine Network. Vaccination Roulette: Experiences, Risks and Alternatives. Bangalow: Australia Vaccination Network; 1998).
- The French government stopped their school-based Heb B vaccination program due to multiple schlerosis and MS-like illnesses associated with the Hep B vaccines. (Herroelen L. et al. Central Nervous System Demylination after immunisation with Recumbent Hepatitis B vaccine. Lancet. 1991;338:1174-1175.) (Tourbal A. Gout O. et al. Encephalitis after Hapatitis B vaccination; Recurrent Disseminated Encephalitis or MS? Neuro. 1999;53:396-401).

Diphtheria, Tetanus, Whooping Cough (acellular pertussis) (DTPa)
- An Australian Doctor monitored infants before and after DPT shots in the 1980s and found that there was a significant change in both the depth and frequency of breathing. Some babies even required CPR after they stopped breathing. The respiratory changes would last for weeks, the subside, then return with subsequent DPT vaccines. (Scheibner V PhD. Vaccination; 100 years of Orthodox Medicine shows that vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System. Santa Fe: New Atlantean Press; 1994).
- Tetanus is extremely rare in infants and is a disease of adults. Wounds that may contain tetanus spores are generally well cleaned and tended in infants and children, and the majority of cases of tetanus are seen in males in their late teens and early 20's. This is possibly because at this age males like to seem "tough" and a wound may be left not properly cleaned and treated.
- Diphtheria is extremely rare.
- There is currently no way to get the whooping cough vaccine without getting the other vaccines along with it.
- Whilst there have been recent whooping cough outbreaks, many of the patients have been fully vaccinated. This is because the whooping cough vaccine does not cover all strains of whooping cough and one of the most common strains seen currently is not protected against by the vaccine.


Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)
- Nasty, but rare. This vaccine is icluded in the DTPa-hepB-IPV-Hib 6in1 and the so can't be omitted by choice if you want to give the rest of the vaccines in the 6in1.


Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis IPV)
- Polio is eradicated in Australia. While there is a small risk of someone in Australia getting Polio, it is statistically less than 0%.
- The majority of Polio cases today are caused by the vaccine itself.
EDIT: Just wanted to add a note here that the injection vaccine used in Australia in not live and can not cause polio. The live oral vaccine that is still used in other countries is the one that is still causing some cases of polio)


Pneumococcal conjugate (7vPCV)
- Has a higher than average rate of seizures and other standard side effects.


Rotavirus
- This is a pretty new vaccine and has had a pretty high rate of side effects.


Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR)
- Measles is extremely rare and in most cases relatively harmless.
- Mumps and rubella are both mild and rare.
- The main concern with this vaccine remains it's potential link to autism. Whilst it was believed that the link between the two had been disproven, two recent studies have once again potentially linked the two.


Meningococcal C (MenCCV)
- Meningitis is serious, but extremely rare.
- Overall risk for all meningococcal strain is about 1:30,000. For C strain, 1:135,000. Risk of death from C strain is under 1:1,000,000 based on 2002 Australian figures.
- Meningococcal C vaccine offers no protection from other strains. In Australia, serogroups B and C occur most frequently.
- There are 13 strains of Meningococcal C bacteria, but only 3 are contained in the vaccine. (Meningococcal C. Vaccination Information South Australia Newsletter. Cited in: Informed Choice: August; Vol 2(3) 2004.)
- Studies have shown that targeting C strain has led to an increase in B strain (of which there is no effective vaccine) and that while the prevalence of C strain may have decreased, the overall rate of bacterial meningitis has increased exponentially. (Meningococcal C. Vaccination Information South Australia Newsletter. Cited in: Informed Choice: August; Vol 2(3) 2004.)
- The meningococcal vaccine has had more reported adverse reactions than any other vaccine in 37 years based on 2003 figures. (South Australian Commission Disease Control Branch. Cited in: Informed Choice: August; Vol 2(3) 2004).


Chickenpox (varicella) (VZV)
- Chickenpox, whilst annoying, in children it is generally harmless.
- It's a good idea to vaccinate after 11 years of age in males (if a blood test shows no immunity) as it can cause sterility).
- The chickenpox vaccine has been shown to wear off, and while the incidence of chickenpox in children has declined, the incidence in adolescents and adults has increased. So the vaccine seems to be wearing off when the disease is most dangerous.
- Catching chickenpox naturally almost always gives lifelong protection.

Just wanted to add that all that info is not intended to try to convince anyone TO or NOT TO vaccinate. I've purposely mainly put the "bad" things in there because that's what the OP was basically asking for.

Like I've mentioned before, if my kids weren't in what I feel is a "high risk" group for adverse effects, then I would probably vaccinate them.

Ps. Yes I put this disclaimer for fear of being flamed, lol!

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Just wanted to add that all that info is not intended to try to convince anyone TO or NOT TO vaccinate. I've purposely mainly put the "bad" things in there because that's what the OP was basically asking for.

Like I've mentioned before, if my kids weren't in what I feel is a "high risk" group for adverse effects, then I would probably vaccinate them.

Ps. Yes I put this disclaimer for fear of being flamed, lol!

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So flaming going to happen hun. Your answering a specific question with your own facts ;D

I would like to point out tho, in a random sort of way, just from what I know, and not backing it up with references :P that I find the reason that we no longer have these diseases in Australia, or the fact that we have rare cases, is because of the increased rate of vaccinations and immunisation providing that herd immunity. There was a Diptheria case where a 22yo woman died just int he recent years, she was unvacciniated, herd immunity can only work for so long, this woman had a friend who was vaccinated he went overseas, and became a diptheria carrier and brought it back to australia and gave it to her, very sad story. The Autism studies were actually false and made up, the articles were pulled and since then the 'founder' has admitted that these studies were false.

Rotavirus vaccine has had some side effects of diarrhea for about a week. but these are far less then getting the disease itself and have decreased dramatically the amount of number of hospital admissions.

I have a heap of more resources at work. But that is the few things that spring to mind.

Mylitta do you mind me asking why are they "high risk"

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Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis IPV)
- Polio is eradicated in Australia. While there is a small risk of someone in Australia getting Polio, it is statistically less than 0%.
- The majority of Polio cases today are caused by the vaccine itself.



Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR)
- Measles is extremely rare and in most cases relatively harmless.
- Mumps and rubella are both mild and rare.
- The main concern with this vaccine remains it's potential link to autism. Whilst it was believed that the link between the two had been disproven, two recent studies have once again potentially linked the two.

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PLease correct me if I am wrong (happy to be corrected ;) ) But wasn't the MMR and the "potenital link to autism" debunked fairly recently?? I have this vague recollection on seeing something like this in the 6-12 months?

My brother had the measles and I had the mumps when we were kids is it less common therefore more rare these days?? Wouldn't the vax have helped if that was actually the case ?? Same with the polio ?? I have no idea about the diseases so I am just asking :D

I was also under the impression that the chickenpox vax was like an "original strain" so it does differ slightly to the one that is passed from human to human (which is why if the vax causes spots, the spots are NOT contagious) therefore would lessen the severity of the disease if it were caught H 2 H if that makes sense??

I also wonder about the stats regarding "side affects" they are not really differentialing between a little bump and a slight temp irritablilty etc and the full blown side affects ITMS??

Not wanting to start anything I am just really curious is all and happy to be corrected if my understand is WAY off :rofl:

Nae x x

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So flaming going to happen hun. Your answering a specific question with your own facts ;D

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I wasn't answering with my own facts. That's why I've tried to put as many references as I could. Nothing I've written there has come out of my own head ;)

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The Autism studies were actually false and made up, the articles were pulled and since then the 'founder' has admitted that these studies were false.

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The autism study by Dr Wakefield was the study that was full of inaccuracies and basically had so many problems with it's "study" (I can't even fathom calling it a real study), that I can't believe it was ever published in the first place. While it's definitely been found that his study was full of holes, that doesn't mean that his theory was actually wrong, it just means that he didn't prove or disprove it.

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Mylitta do you mind me asking why are they "high risk"

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We have a couple of reasons for being extra cautious. Both my sister and I had pretty severe reactions to the whooping cough vaccine as babies. I almost died when I went into respiratory distress, and my sister has a rare lifelong form of eczema that has been potentially attributed to an immune response brought on by the vaccine. Whilst the vaccine has been changed since back when we had it, we've been told there is no way to know if the reactions were definitely to the constituents in the vaccine carrier, to the vaccine itself, or to the specific immune response. And as it's been proven that vaccination reactions are more likely if a family member has also had a reaction we are being cautious.

The main reason though is due to the potential link to autism. Both sides of our family has an extremely strong history of children on the autistic spectrum, especially in boys (probably around 80% of male siblings and cousins affected to some degree). After seeing a geneticist and a psychiatrist that specialises in children on the autistic spectrum and vaccinations, we have decided that the potential risk is too great for us to feel comfortable given the vaccines at this stage. Most of the studies surrounding vaccination and autism focus on the MMR vaccine, yet a more recent study has pointed to link more generally toward vaccines in general. It basically possible causes of autism and included autism caused by encephalitis, that was initially caused by a vaccine reaction (not specifically the MMR). (Helen V. Ratajcza. Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review. Journal of Immunotoxicology, 2011; 8(1): 68–79)

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PLease correct me if I am wrong (happy to be corrected ;) ) But wasn't the MMR and the "potenital link to autism" debunked fairly recently?? I have this vague recollection on seeing something like this in the 6-12 months?

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The two journal studies I've read still potentially linking vaccines and autism were both published in 2011, so are both very new. I also have a 3rd article on my computer (that I am still reading as it's 52 pages long, lol) was also written this year and is basically an analysis in which they review and critique the analytical epidemiology studies most commonly cited as evidence against the autism-vaccine hypothesis.
I really do wish that the potential link would either be confirmed or debunked because it would certainly make the decision of whether to vaccinate or not a lot easier!

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My brother had the measles and I had the mumps when we were kids is it less common therefore more rare these days?? Wouldn't the vax have helped if that was actually the case ?? Same with the polio ?? I have no idea about the diseases so I am just asking :D

I was also under the impression that the chickenpox vax was like an "original strain" so it does differ slightly to the one that is passed from human to human (which is why if the vax causes spots, the spots are NOT contagious) therefore would lessen the severity of the disease if it were caught H 2 H if that makes sense??

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It's often cited that once you have a vaccination against something, that if you still manage to catch the disease it can be a milder form of the disease. This can certainly be true. What is less often mentioned is that someone who has been vaccinated against a disease and then catches the disease is more likely to have an "atypical" form of the disease than someone who was never vaccinated against it. It's still rare to have that sort of reaction, but they can be much more devastating than the "normal" course of the disease.
With Polio, Australia has zero cases of polio since it was declared "polio-free" by the world health organisation in 2000. The risk of one of my kids getting polio is statistically 0%, whereas the risk of a reaction to the vaccine is higher than 0%. It makes more sense to me to get the polio vaccine later in life if you are ever planning on visiting a country that still has polio, rather than giving it repeatedly to a baby with an immature immune system.

I hope I'm making sense. Vaccination is such a complex subject.

And again I want to point out that I'm not actually against vaccinations, lol. I DO wish that there were stricter studies done on vaccines before they are used on the public, and I definitely think that the efficacy and safety of vaccines should be greatly improved, AND I think that there should be more options when it comes to being able to choose which vaccines to give and not to give (rather than limiting it to a 5in1 or 6in1), but in general the theory behind a vaccine is certainly a good one and I don't doubt that they do a lot of good.

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I also wonder about the stats regarding "side affects" they are not really differentialing between a little bump and a slight temp irritablilty etc and the full blown side affects ITMS??

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Oops, missed this bit :) That's definitely something that I wonder about too! It's very difficult to find numbers on what rate certain reactions have with particular vaccines. The reason it was so hard for us to make a decision on whether to vaccinate the kids or not was because we couldn't find anyone that could give us hard facts as to whether the risk of vaccinating was or was not outweighed by the risks of not-vaccinating for our kids in particular. And the two "specialists" we saw both recommended caution with vaccines, and one outright said he did not recommend the MMR for our kids. Once my kids reach the age past which regressive-autism is a risk, then we will re-evaluate what vaccines to give. It's a lose-lose situation though. We would hate ourselves is either of the kids caught something really bad that we could have vaccinated against, but by the same token, we would hate ourselves if we vaccinated and then the kids developed regressive autism. With one son already pretty severely effected on the autistic spectrum (my eldest stepson) we have first hand experience at the devastation it can cause :(

Omg I am so sorry. That was meant to say "there was NO flaming going to happen" as in I wanted just a nice discussion! So sorry!!!!


Love MN ;-)

LOL!!!! I thought it seemed strange that you said that. What an unfortunate typo, hehehe

I agree mylitta, my biggest problem with vaccinations is the hard facts for the pros and cons. I really wish the 'real' stats, pros and cons were put forward to the world honestly. And until thats done, I find that I am unable to trust the available data whole-heartedly.

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With Polio, Australia has zero cases of polio since it was declared "polio-free" by the world health organisation in 2000. The risk of one of my kids getting polio is statistically 0%, whereas the risk of a reaction to the vaccine is higher than 0%. It makes more sense to me to get the polio vaccine later in life if you are ever planning on visiting a country that still has polio, rather than giving it repeatedly to a baby with an immature immune system..

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With this, not entirely true. Polio still exisit in other parts of the world, so if your friend *bob* went to a polio infected area and became a carrier, when he would come home and visit, your children can become infected (yes rare, but more then 0%)

There are high risk vaccination centers open that might be an option for when your ready later incase you didn't know ;)



Love MN ;-)

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I agree mylitta, my biggest problem with vaccinations is the hard facts for the pros and cons. I really wish the 'real' stats, pros and cons were put forward to the world honestly. And until thats done, I find that I am unable to trust the available data whole-heartedly.

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That's never going to happen. There are pro/con to everything. And Not everyone is going to agree.

I don't even agree to all the vaccine's available.

Mylitta - so sorry again! Ah, need to proof read more!


Love MN ;-)

[QUOTE=MummeNurse;2946064]That's never going to happen. There are pro/con to everything. And Not everyone is going to agree. QUOTE]

I know it will never happen (but I live in hope that it will happen), but it would surely help with the debate. And until then it surely isnt helping making the decision any easier.

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With this, not entirely true. Polio still exisit in other parts of the world, so if your friend *bob* went to a polio infected area and became a carrier, when he would come home and visit, your children can become infected (yes rare, but more then 0%)

There are high risk vaccination centers open that might be an option for when your ready later incase you didn't know ;)



Love MN ;-)

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I should have been more clear. While the risk isn't actually 0%, it's higher than that, it's such a small number like 0.000something% that it's classed at "statistically" 0%.