Is anyone else interested in/ following Occupy Melbourne/Wall St/ wherever else? Thoughts, discussions, articles/blogs links...post here :)
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Is anyone else interested in/ following Occupy Melbourne/Wall St/ wherever else? Thoughts, discussions, articles/blogs links...post here :)
I hafta say....I don't get it :confused: I understand what they're saying about the 1%, but what are they actually doing?
They are in Brisbane too. Some of their signs I really disagree with... there was one blaming Judeo-Christian American worship of capitalism or something similar. Seriously? I agree with a few of their points... especially the tax payer funded bail outs of big companies, but a lot of it is rather O.o.
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
That's the first declaration from Occupy Wall St.
To me, it's a sign that people have had enough. Of greed. Of unethical corporations. It's people being unified in a belief, and making a stand and having our voices heard on a mass, global scale.
Hmmm, how very interesting! Are they actually doing anything there, or just 'occupying'?
If this works, I wonder how long it would be before the same thing happened to governments - especially given the frequent payrises they give themselves....
Personally I dislike the whole "they" thing - who exactly are "they" - different groups of people different companies are responsible for the different statements above. I don't think broad brushed "corporations, multinationals are bad" statements are helpful - the whole us and them thing doesn't sit well with me and the lumping together of all sorts of different issues, issues that have been around forever. I prefer things that tell you the positive actions you can do to help drive change in particular areas - what exactly are we asking for in relation to those statements, what are the sensible solutions? It is easy to list all the things that are wrong - far harder to work out how to put them right (maybe there is info on this just I haven't see it in the media / it wasn't immediately easy to see on the web site).
To me is a bit like when you are having an argument with a friend of partner - you should stay on topic and not bring up other unrelated issues in order to make your point. That just dilutes the original point. You have an issue you deal with that issue not bring up every other thing that you dislike or have a problem with.
There are a lot of sentiments in that statement that I agree with but I have a major problem with them not articulating any solutions/policies - I just don't think that's constructive.
As for the Australian protests, I guess I see them as jumping on a bandwagon and I don't like bandwagons. I have not been following it ultra-closely but they don't seem to be putting forward any specific ideas, just a litany of things that they disagree with. I don't like the negativity. If you're bothered enough to protest, then be bothered enough to come up with some constructive ideas as to how we can make our society better/more equitable etc. etc.
Yes, I agree that the gap between rich and poor is widening. Yes, I agree that it stinks that governments have bailed out big companies yet they make welfare cutbacks to help fund that (in the UK/US, not here). As far as Aus goes, the lack of affordable housing is a huge issue as is the cycle of welfare dependency but I haven't heard them put forward ideas on how to address that.
So have sympathy with their malaise, no sympathy with the lack of ideas.
Interesting thought Keiks...I guess it's kind of an unknown quantity. Where do we draw the line?
As far as I'm aware of OM (but I assume Wall St is similar), they are occupying (new site is going to be the treasury gardens on Saturday, as protesters were forcefully removed from city square) as well as education, helping the homeless, handing out literature. There is a legal team, a soup kitchen, free clothes, first aid, an aboriginal tent for more education. I'm hesitant to go to certain events with DD but will be attending the general assembly tomorrow evening to learn more.
I hardly think there is a lack of ideas behind the movement, unless the only information you (collective) have is gleaned from the evening news.
The main solution people are proposing has been dubbed 'the Robin-Hood tax'...a 1% tax on all financial and currency transactions that would raise literally billions to help those in our world who are poverty stricken:
http://robinhoodtax.org.au/
Have already stuck up my hand to say that I haven't been following it closely other than listening to interviews on 774 with some of the protesters in which they did not, to my knowledge, put forward the idea you've just described - unless that's one coming from the American protest.
If they do have specific ideas, then they are not getting them across very well in the mainstream media and if they are to bring about change they do need to get their message through to the mainstream media.
I have also listened to some of the protesters on 774 and I agree with you, their points were vague. It was actually quite disappointing. Many people in Melb are now also protesting against the fact that people were brutally removed from city square, rather than the original cause. It's very hard to get the message through mainstream media though, because that's not the flavour of the current situation; 'unruly' protesters etc are what's gaining attention atm, which is unfortunate, as these protests should remain peaceful.
I think David Cameron has said that no government manager should be paid more than x times the average wage. Something like that is tangible and if the protesters said that they would like to see a cap on CEO salaries (which are far higher relatively than they were two decades ago), I think they would have a lot of people agree with them. Or advocate for the phasing out of negative gearing on investment properties. I'm not saying they are the best policies (I haven't spent enough time weighing those up) - just examples of what I'd like to see from them - simple, tangible ideas.
To be honest, this is what I find most disturbing about the whole situation. In my opinion it goes against our democratic right to protest.:
While the American's may have some sort of agenda, I have to be honest and say that I think the Australian (Melbournian's in particular) are really just taking a stand against capitalist ideas that they see as unjust and inequitable. Personally I agree with that stance. But at this point I think there is very little to be achieved by what they are doing...
Perhaps capitalism is reaching the end of its line... I don't know. But I do know that real change is unlikely to be born out of the Wall Street occupation and the other occupations that are going on around the world. Especially when the protestors don't have clear voice or a clear agenda. For them to be successful in bringing about real ideolistic change they will need to work within the system, form their own political parties, have a clear agenda and a singular voice. Provide the people with a vision and an ideal to pursue. Right now, they're a long, long, long way from gaining the support of the people, even though I suspect most agree with their underlying ideal.
The Robin Hood tax won't work. Here's why.
The big corporation bosses want a certain amount of money in their bank account at the end of the year. If you tax them an additional 1%, they will just raise their own salaries enough to cover the cost. The expense will be passed back to us in two ways... either the price of goods/services will increase, or they will employ less people. It doesn't make economic sense to pass a Robin Hood tax.
It's not taxing salaries, it's taxing the finacial sector for transactions. So loosely, about 5 cents out of every $1000 traded.
Same deal... that will be passed back on to the consumers, with higher item prices and lower employment.
:/ Yeah, I guess, but on a fractional scale. I'm no economist, but I cannot see this tax VASTLY changing the price you pay for shampoo, for example. I see the tax factoring into general inflation. Personally the billions that could be raised to save lives from this tax far outweight the few cents/dollars more that I might pay extra on goods or services. Inflation is going to occur with or without this tax.
It's not the most efficient way to do it though. For every dollar you get out of a CEO, they are paying a dollar tax so they would have to pay themselves an additional $2 to cover it. It's much better to give them an incentive to give of their own violition pre-tax than in that format.
Some of the things OWS in the states is doing is just ridiculous. They are encouraging people to mass default on mortgages because if they do it in big enough quantities, the banks wont have the manpower to kick them out for about a year and they will save money while the banks loose. That is just stupid. It's one thing to want to protest against large scale corporate greed, another thing all together to actively work towards bringing down whole economies, and when you look at some of their writing, that is what they want to do. Topple Wall Street.
what they are protesting for in the USA is valid, what they are protesting about here in Australia is not an issue
Annoying the crap out of people isn't the way to get your voice heard, and they annoyed the crap out of me on Friday when they disrupted not only my work, they discrupted the distribution of confidential documentation around the city and stopped me getting home by my normal route (which is to walk but they were all converging on the main way I walk home)
It's a financial transactions tax, not an income tax.:
While i understand that causes such as this need a voice and i understand the right and need for people to be able to protest i think there are better ways to get this message across.
As someone who knows very little about it and doesn't get to see a lot of media during the day there is no actual understanding of their 'solutions' to the issues they are protesting about.
My heart broke the other day when i saw a mother clutching at her son who was in tears while police were trying to remove her, no offence ladies but who does that to a child, was she using him as an excuse for police NOT to drag her away.
I think there should be peaceful protests but these should not be taken to the extreme of blocking off public areas for days at a time with a tent city, upon being asked by police to vacate and then crying fowl when your forcibly removed, i also don't agree with taking and keeping young children at these events, no matter your beliefs your child should not have to be involved and witness such things.
PZ - i'm not referring to you taking Isla, i see no issue with going to a peaceful demonstration with a little one in a sling (unless you plan on being dragged off by the police) but there's a fine line.
ZF, I wouldn't take DD, even to the assembly. Mayve i would have before, but not after the police forcefully removed people the way they did.
The protesters also lost a LOT of credibility with me because apparently the police and/or the City of Melbourne had been in discussions with them for quite some time and they had said that if they were asked to leave they would do so peacefully. They were given plenty of notice and asked to leave at 9am on Friday. That time came and they didn't keep their word. Can't say one thing and do another IMO.
Yeah, but you can't also drag people by their hair and legs because they refuse to stop standing in a public place. If the police wanted to dismantle their tents etc, fine. Barging into a group of solitary people and dragging them across the ground one by one isn't right.
I think people have lost the concept of "protesting". As the years go by it becomes more about acting like fools instead of getting your point across in an intelligent way. I think its interesting that the homebirth rallies and protests barely rate a mention in the 'crazy protester' stakes but when you get something like this it gets out of control pretty quickly. Are these protests doing anything but closing people's ears to the cause because of how theyve been handled? No. I dont even bother watching news stories of it, my immediate thought is "Yeah yeah blah blah blah dont care to watch people acting silly" and switch over.
From what you've all said the root cause is something that definately needs to be addressed, its just unfortunate that bad behaviour overshadows the reason for protesting in the first place.
I hear what you're saying PZ but if people won't leave voluntarily, as they said they would do, then by definition, some sort of force has to be used. I'm not sure that dismantling tents would have made the protesters leave. I've been on protests myself for lots of things but this doesn't seem like a protest, it seems like a talkfest. Talkfests are also fine but have meetings somewhere like political parties do.
Something I've noticed here in Brisbane (I walk past them every day) is that they ARE calling for higher income taxes on the rich. There seems to be a different flavour to the protests depending on what country and city you are in... they aren't as cohesive as it seems.
Today I saw a sign that said that the poor will eventually get so poor that all they will be able to eat is the rich. That's a rather vague and uninformative statement and smacks of envy. I think their ire is good, their energy is good, but their policies leave a lot to be desired.
I'd consider dropping the level of income tax / company tax so that it stimulates more jobs and helps people up that way, rather than a Robin Hood tax. But we already heard that from me so I'll shut up now :D.
I know for Melbourne at least they have general assemblies where meetings are conducted and minutes are taken etc, as well as rallies and the actual occupying. I'm going to the 8th general assembly tomorrow, so maybe I can report back and fill you all in on what is actually happening vs what is making it into the mainstream media.:
That would be great PZ.
I'd be interested too PZ, mostly because I think the media is enjoying painting them like fringe radicals and I think that distorts their message.
I agree completely. Unfortunately there are radicals like that in almost every movement, no matter what the cause, and that tends to tar everyone with the same brush. From my own reading and understand of OWS and OM, most of it is balanced and non-menacing.:
OK I went again today.
They are growing, and they are becoming more organised and more clear with their stated aims and goals. It is all emerging rather fast. I must say, I do like SOME of their ideas, still very sceptical on others. I don't have much faith in their fiscal policy but I understand a little more now what they are against.
why is not an issue here in Australia?:
Australia is part of the world economy, our companies and our government engage in the market economy. I am not sure how your statement makes sense?
I think that people will find that once they actually attend a general assembly and engage with the movement on a even footing (ie stepping away from radio and television) that what you will find is a really diverse group of people attempting to create change. Not only change in the way liberal economic markets are handled, but also change in the way in which publics engage with and help determine those policies and actions.
Maybe we are foolish for wanting and demanding change. But I will never lose hope, and whenever there is an opportunity for collective outpouring I will be there.
I bring my girls. Why? Because it is safe. What happened on Friday morning was horrific and unprecedented. We were the only country other than Bahrain to use such violent dispersal. Thankfully, there was the chance for people to leave before it got ugly and our family decided to not attend as I am not interested in my girls witnessing such repression of freedom of expression and the right to protest (and not to mention the unexpected violence). But we were there a few hours later and crossed the police line to attend. And it was safe. Because the Occupy movement is a PEACEFUL one.
I have NO IDEA where people are getting the idea that the protesters are being 'silly' or 'fools'?? I have attended Occupy Melbourne and I have not seen this behaviour? What have I seen? I have the militarisation of the city of Melbourne by the police. A militarisation of a city and the violent dispersal of people who have the constitutional right to protest in a public space. I am with PZ on this one, dismantle the tents, but do not disallow people from protesting. That is unconstitutional. And the world WAS watching and there has been widespread condemnation of the violent actions undertaken by the police force that day (and no, not just by radical, uni hippies lol!).
A little insight into just who is attending the assemblies and the debates and discusssion sessions (the marches and the protests are only a small component of the Occupy movements BTW): we have families, uni students, nurses, midwives, construction workers, lawyers, academics, hippies, union representatives, BB members (:lol:), NGOs, homeless representatives. This is what makes the movement unique. It is for everybody because it concerns everyone.
Really? Did you know in the UK it is illegal to protest within a mile of parliament now - just in case the politicians are upset that they aren't representing the people they claim to.:
Did you know that peaceful student protests were greeted with the riot police - they didn't stay peaceful for long. Then we wonder why we have riots and blame the schools (which were on summer holidays).
I'm actually for the cost of living going down, bank managers having their pay cut in half and no bonuses (they still earn more than DH and I combined even with that) and other bank workers salary to match - after all, I bailed out the banks with my tax money, I expect to see some regulation. That's the main thing I want to see - banks not profiting from the trouble they put the financial world in.
Don't know of any system that actually works better than capitalism in practice though. Others sound better in theory but never seem to work out that way and end up worse than capitalism. Reined in capitalism would be good.
Out of curiosity and bearing in mind that a) I am not in Melbourne and therefore am unable to attend and b) I can only judge by what I read in the media so therefore my view is obviously tainted...can someone please tell me what the purpose was last night of singling out and targeting a police officer by printing his details on a flyer and handing them out? Yes I know that the flyer said that he is a "violent" person but at the end of the day was he not just doing his job?
The purpose? A bunch of idiots who are angry. Wasn't an OM sanctioned move. Although the police were unnecessarily violent, it's a pretty stupid idea to retaliate like that. As for doing his job...hmm, as Cassius said, only Melbourne and Bahrain have been dispersed violently...:
Wow that WAS a stupid move by whoever did it and it will tarnish OWS-M. They really need to publicly announce that they did not support that action, and quickly, before the mud sticks.
They already have. Doesn't mean the media will report that ;)