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Hi Ladies,
I was out recently and bub was unwell and someone recommended I give my baby adult panadol, cut into 1/8ths. I of course know the risks and would never do this but I'm concerned because this person often cares for my child and thought I was ridiculous for not taking the advice.
I can't seem to find any of the articles that were about recently on the dangers of giving a child the wrong dosage of paracetamol, liver damage etc.
Can you please help me out with this?
Thanks :)
Can't link you to anything, but I recently saw on the news a story about how 100's of children are admitted to hospital every year with paracetamol overdoses from parents not administering panadol properly. You definitely were not being ridiculous.
I know that paracetamol overdose causes liver failure.
Also, that unless stated, many pill/capsules shouldn't be halved and taken - due to the fact that other things are added to make it into that shape/form, and you cannot guarantee that 50% of the active drug is in 50% of the tablet, ITMS. cutting it by an eighth would be impossibly, and ridiculously risky.
the panadol is just the same in adult as it is in children. If you knew the amount of miligrams that you wanted to give and could accurately give that by breaking it in half then it isn't actually dangerous. For example the recommended dosage is 15 miligrams per kilogram. So when my DD was 14 kg I gave her 210mgs of panadol. so half of one adult tablet would be 250mg and then if you took a bit off that you would have close to the amount you want.
You are right that overdosing with panadol is very dangerous and can kill. However because of this dangerous fact, the dosage recommendations for panadol are actually much lower than what you can safely give. In some loading doses for PR panadol I have known emergency dr's to give a dose of 40mg/kg if the child has had no previous panadol for the past 24hrs. So you see there is quite a bit of leeway. I wouldn't freak out if I were you.
Having said all of that. If you don't want this person to give your baby adult panadol, then the carer should respect your parenting choices without question.
Good luck
xx Bella
you will notice on panadol tablets that they are scored across the top Lenny, and therefore can be cut in halves. Most nurses stations that I have ever worked at have pill cutters on them. It is only the enteric coated tablets that give a slow release of a drug that can't be cut.
I saw the same thing PZ, as easy as mum giving bub panadol and dad not realising and giving bub panadol. I read of an adult recently who died from organ failure due to taking cold and flu tablets + panadol + lemsip :( its not taken seriously by enough people as its 'just paracetamol'
I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking a risk with dosage, so I wouldn't do it.
ETA - I might feel differently if I was a nurse or Dr. but I am merely a 'lay' person, so wouldn't feel confident taking a 'risk'.
yeah being a nurse means I do feel comfortable and certainly if you don't know what you want to do you shouldn't muck about.:
That being said most of the panadol overdoses we saw in emergency were quite deliberate because ppl wanted attention and felt that panadol was a safe option..... little did they know. It is very treatable tho if you know it has happened, you can treat with another drug.
Sure you can half half of a paracetamol tablet but seriously who can accurately cut a paracetamol tablet into 8ths! Sorry but IMO this should never be done that's what baby paracetamol is designed for. I'd tell your friend to never ever give your child any form of medicine without ringing you first.
Just asked my dr hubby and he said that you would need to give an 8kg baby, 4 tablets before they would even think about treating.... So guys as worried as you all are you really don't need to be. they would need to be given 200mg/kg for treatment to be considered. I wouldn't expect you guys to know that kind of info. Just a reminder that when I was a kid mums used to crush up panadol with a bit of jam to give to kids. It isn't crazy what she suggested. It just isn't what Babyluv is happy with. that is enough for the carer not to do it, but nothing to panic about
Thanks ladies I saw it on the news recently and was wondering if there might be something online about it?
I asked my Dr today and she said never give a baby adult panadol, its not something you can accurately measure and it's important to stick to the guidelines for weight not age. I guess if you're a Dr and you know the weight to dose ratio it might be a bit different.
Hi girls, I was searching today to see if there was any info on here about adult panadol before I started a new thread so I'm glad I found this one. I first jumped on the panadol website to see if they had any powder type of panadol for babies/toddlers but they only have the horrible chemical smelling/tasting liquid and suppositories which I would not give to ds and the couple of times I gave the liquid to ds months ago he vomited it up. So I thought powder would be the perfect option to put into something that tastes good and ds would be able to take it no worries then. Because they don't sell a baby powder panadol I started wondering if an adult tablet crushed up and the amount given matches ds's weight then I couldn't see what the fuss would be about. I also read that article a while back about overdoes in babies. At the time I couldn't help but question the drug company because if bub is throwing it up and then you give more there is no way to know how much has been absorbed so why don't they sell a powder? My guess is that they are making loads and loads and even more loads of money of this yucky baby panadol.
My DD once swallowed a panadiene tablet (panadol and codiene) i panicked and rang that nurse hotline and they asked me how old she is how much she weighs and how much she had and i think he said that she would have had to have more than 3 to have any effect but was told to watch her regardless.
I remember my mum giving us kids quarter of a tablet crushed on a spoon mixed with water, it was so gross but it was great pain relief. I do think we were older than 10.. we never had panadol as little kids in her opinion we didnt need it and if we did her GP gave it to us.
Cherished there is a way to safely crush an adult tablet and then workout how much to give. I'm sorry but I'm not going to tell you how. I don't feel like that's the right thing todo. But I don't see why a chemist wouldn't walk you thru how to do it.
My ds once ate 4 Panadol so 2000mgs that DH had left out. Again even being a nurse I freaked however the poisons hotline said that ds could have had double that. They said that their little livers can process that amount. It is in fact as we get older that our livers can't cope.
Thinking that thru the dangers of people giving the incorrect dose of Panadol must be going to have HUGE impact on their health later in life.
To the OP: hugs its a horrible feeling when you don't feel it's safe to leave you LO's with a carer as you don't feel they will follow your wishes. You are right to be shocked and upset!
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My chemist has showed me how to do it. Baby panadol has always made DD1 go spastic with all the added sugar, colours etc in it.
Thanks for that feedback girls. I was kind of expecting some back lash (like in some previous posts) about giving the wrong dosage etc. But I just think it's common sense really. I appreciate that many GP's may say not to do it but I believe like most things they are just covering their own buts. I trust my own intuition and as I said it wouldn't be the first time a drug company scared people into buying products.
I'm also feeling a bit rude not addressing the OP as I have hijacked your thread! I would be pretty horrified if I left ds witih someone and they gave his drugs without asking me. Unless I was uncontactable and ds was really distressed and it was definitely pain that was the problem.
Cherished, my DS vomits on contact with oral panadol and can't take ibuprofen due to renal issues. On the rare occasions her has required analgesia or an anti-pyretic I have use the PR Panadol (suppositories). They are fantastic, and work very quickly. I use a little bit of lube and wear a glove. My DS is now 6 and lies on his tummy if I need to insert one. As long as he relaxes his bottom there is no discomfort for him. If I have needed to use it, he has been unwell enough that the idea of a suppository doesn't bother him!
I have given adult panadol to my children, but again I am also a nurse so feel quite comfortable doing so. OP I don't like the fact that someone is possibly giving your child any medication without your say so. Maybe next time she looks after your child put a bottle of baby panadol in the nappy bag JIC so she is not tempted to use adult panadol. I would also tell her you want to be notified if medication is required before giving it
I wouldn't give her the bottle. If I have had to go out when I have a sick child I leave a note with the time they are allowed the medication and the medication already drawn up. Lol over controlling rn mum that I am ;)
I always put panadol/nurofen in DDs nappy bag if she is being babysat. I will also write a note saying what dosage to give her if she needs it, i dont care if its my mum, SIL or MIL i still do it because i want to ensure they do as i say. But i also write my numbers down so they can call before giving her any pain relief.
I would be absolutely livid if a family member or friend offered my DD any medicines/pain relief that i haven't specified is ok.
Being a nurse, the idea of giving adult panadol is a danerous practice. It is never ideal to break a tablet, esp if you can get the correct dosage, you cannot gaurentee that the does is correct.
Though paracetamol is a safe drug to use if used correctly, it is the drug that causes the most hospitilisations when accidental overdoses occur.
The article PZ refers to is that both parents are dosing a child for pain without realising the other parent has already administerd a dose.
A death from a paracetamol overdose takes several days and is not a pleasent way to go.
I remember having half a tablet of aspirin when I was a kid (showing my age here) from about the age of 7. If I knew the dose was correct I would half a tablet, but not quarter it without a pill cutter and I would only do that if there was no alternative. It's too easy to mistake the dosage when you start chopping pills in half and luckily my kids respond fine to children's paracetamol so I have no issues giving it to them.
Cherished, my kids vomit panadol but not other brands of paracetamol such as chemists own. Have you tried them?
I wouldn't do the adult tablets but if a gp or chemist did it, or showed me how then I might consider it. I certainly woldn't let a carer do it though.
Hmm. Both your posts concern me. Paracetamol is one of the most dangerous drugs. Its effects on the liver is significant and can be fatal in the event of overdose. It is expected that health professionals would encourage parents to be VERY careful with paracetamol dosages for this reason so your comment of "don't worry' is alittle misinformed being that based on what you have said regarding dosages- a parent would only need to give the wrong dose 2-3 times to cause an overdose! Thats easy to do across the day!! This is not to mention the effects on a babies liver and kidneys from repeated high dosages.:
And, yep- back then adult paracetamol was crushed and given to babies- thats probably why paracetamol is now recommended to be given as an oral suspension to kids so the dose is right for their weight rather than just 'oh yeah- 1/8th of a tab will do'. And I would be interested in knowing the overdose stats from back then to.
Anyway- I would be VERY concerned an angry at anyone being so complacent as to not bother checking correct dosages before giving ANY medication to my child.
To me, just because the dose may not be enough to warrant treatment or admission, doesn't mean it isn't still overloading the liver, and over time scarring it or damaging it.
Thanks for your post Delphmoon.
I always wonder about the actual statistics when someone says when we were kids....
Just because it didn't harm 1 person doesn't mean many weren't harmed. I believe we have these warnings for the best interests of our kids, not to scare us or make life difficult for us.
Absolutely.:
I think so to. Children are soo precious and its not worth risking their health on a guess.:
I think most health professionals would prefer parent be over cautious than under caution when it comes to medication administration and babies/toddlers/children.
I know I have instilled this in my husband who is a stay at home dad. When we first started using panadol I explained to him the importance of getting the dosage right and encouraged him to stop and look at the dosage in the syringe before giving it to her- basically to double check each time and not be complacent. Maybe this comes from being a nurse, but once you become complacent or habitual about giving out medication- the room for error increases IYGWIM.
Working in the community- you would be surprised to know there are alot of parents out there who actually think its ok to give their child one panadol tablet and rationalize it by saying 'well adults have 2 tablets, so a child must only need one' :o I nearly die when I hear this. Then they think because its normal for an adult to have panadol every 4-6 hrs, they can give it to their children every 4 hrs and boom- by 8pm you have an overdose on your hands. Not pretty :shakehead:
Anywho- the way I see it- if they have a safer option (being the baby/children panadol) why not use it? Better to be safe than sorry.
i don't know the article but a paramedic & baby first aid trainer told me that if you think a baby is sick enough to need paracetomol, then they should be going to the doctor anyway. i'm not sure if that's a little extreme but i do believe on erring on the side of caution.
my biggest issue, like others, would be with someone potentially giving your child medication without you knowing or telling you afterwards. i'd be seriously unimpressed with their attitude as well!
Delph the point I was trying to make was that because Panadol can be a fatal drug, the dosages that are recommended are well welll, well below what is safe. which is why my it would take 4 full 500mg tablets before treatment would even be considered, so that is 2000mgs of panadol when the dose for that baby is 120mgs. So you see it is more than 15 times the regular dose before treatment is considered likely. So if you did twice the dose and incidentally that is often theraputic for a first dose, you are in no way going to harm your child. Even if you did that for 2 days
I guess I reject this concept of us being more stupid than our parents, who all gave panadol the way that is described above. Sure information is given based on the lowest common denominator ie the most stupid person in the room. I however know that I am not the most stupid person in the room and am happy to do a bit of maths... I am also willing to say to someone else, "here is the information, if you are comfortable making a decision do so." With making our own decisions we take our own responsibility. I personally am happy to take responsibility for my health and the health of my children.
also Delphi there is a difference between telling people to be careful and telling them to be neurotic. yes you need to be careful with panadol. that wasn't disputed in my post, but no you don't need to panic or worry about small miscalculations when you need to give more than 15 times the dose. Each person reading here has to decide what they are comfortable with. If they aren't comfortable, then don't do it. I believe I said that too... But I don't believe that we should give no information as health professionals just in case.... people simply need to be responsible for themselves.
There is more money to be made in having different formulations, so if it was felt that powder baby panadol was a good idea they would be doing it I am sure (just look at all the different formulations adults have normal tablets, gel caps, quick release tablets, chewy tablets etc) - being able to sell the same drug in a different formulation is what drugs companies love - reduced amount of expensive research and discovery and clinical trials required and another product to make money from. Parents would probably by both types, one kid loves the liquid the other doesn't, pre-solids they need the liquid, post they don't. A different formulation would only make them money am sure. Babies spit out food and throw it on the floor etc etc so ensuring dosage is correct is likely to be more difficult in a powder form. There is more than one type of baby paracetamol so it isn't in their interests to make something babies don't like - sure some babies won't, but that is the same with everything.:
I disagree. Once a drug steps out of that theraputic threshold and becomes toxic in the body- thats when it an overdose- not because of some standardized number that does not consider renal and liver function and weight. For instance- I I know I can safetly take 1gram of paracetamol. Someone of the same age, weight etc may 'overdose' on the same dose because they are at end stage renal failure or take medication that speeds up or slows down the metabolism of the paracetamol. But Im getting too far into it yes:
I'm not disputing that its peoples choice on what they give- but, as someone who has seen the effects of overdose- I feel there is some responsibility to re-educate people and say "well there are safety issues- maybe try it this way" rather than "nah dont worry about it, it would take 15 doses before you did any damage" IYGWIM :)
I don't take more than the recommended dose. I don't recommend other people do either. But if you can't quite get a tablet in exact quarters, then it simply isn't a big deal at all because the margin for error is massive! That is the point of what I am trying to say. People need to not be freaked out by scary stories. I have never seen a baby brought in to emergency in 7 years as an emergency nurse due to a parental error(other than them leaving panadol where the child can get to it). I have seen huge amounts of teenagers come in because they deliberately do it. I have seen kids come in for lots of other things that parents give them, but not panadol overdoses, even if 2 care givers give a dose of panadol each, whilst not brilliant is no cause for alarm. In the Royal childrens hospital in brisbane they used to give a loading dose of 40mg/kg PR instead of the regular 15mg/kg......
I'm not disputing what are 'acceptable dosages' are- anyone can look those up online without being a consulting emergency room doctor etc. My post and my opinion was based on how we educate people and as far as I'm concerned, encouraging people to do the right thing and be safe when giving their children ANY medication is important. I would rather promote caution than complacency and I don't think I am creating panic, or freaking people out like you have suggested.
I don't like stepping in when things get heated but I have to when it comes to medical people handing out advice re medications. I too am an ed trained rn. I understand where you are both coming from but I have to agree with delph. We should not be encouraging parents to not be concerned with incorrect drug doses
Do you know what I think we will just have to agree to disagree what the "right thing" is Delphi. I think it is fine for ppl to use their brains. You think it is safer if they just do what is easiest ie read the bottle and give a specific ml of liquid panadol. Whatever. It is fine for us to have different opinions. There will always be that in the world. I hope that the mums who google or search for this thread can see that there are different ways of doing things, and feel good about their choices, regardless of what they are.
I shouldn't have gotten into a debate with you, because I am very pregnant and a bit irritable and probably not able to respond to you in my most cordial way, so if I have been flippant or given offense I apologise. I won't be continuing the discussion cos I don't think it will lead anywhere that is good for my head right now.
So good luck to all the mums out there trying to decide what they think. I am sure if you use common sense, you will come up with a good answer that suits you and your child.
XX Bella
Thats ok Bella- there is no issue with having differing opinions and I was in no way offended or upset :)
I personally feel any opinions given on BB should not replace advice given by a medical practitioner you know and trust. Please follow the guidelines when administering medication to your children.
Babyluv, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It's really important to always seek advice from a medical professional who knows your personal situation and can give tailored advice. Especially when it comes to things like drug dosages.
Don't ever give adult formulations of medication to children unless under the strict advice of a medical professional, guys.
It's just common sense.