How bad does it have to be for DOC's to get involved?

So this might not be the right place to ask this, but I couldnt work out where else it could go. So please move if its wrong.

I heard a story today about a couple whose newborn baby has been removed from their care by DOCS. This bub was onlly born about a month ago, prem but not too prem, and the couples first born. From what I understand, the couple have been told that they wont be able to have their bub in their care for at least a year. (I also know that the grandfather is being investigated for doing bad things to kiddies.. and they live with this man, even though they are moving out asap)

I dont know too much about the story, but it has me wondering how bad it would have to be for bubs to be removed? I mean I know of some awful situatiions where DOCS were notified but nothing ever happened. So I assume there is more to the story than Ive heard, but surely it wouldnt just be the situation with the grandfather surely??

So Im just curious as to how bad things have to be for DOCS to get involved, and to remove a newborn from their parents? (I know Im asking for hypotheticals, but Im just curious is all. I know DOCS tries to keep families together as much as possible, and from experience things must be really bad for them to take a child away) (Oh and I dont like asking, but its got the better of me)

Defiantly more to the story, in my experience it takes a hell off a lot and needs alot more proof before docs does much at all.

For them to even come under DOCs notice with a newborn there had to be multiple contacts with a mandatory reporter. Police, hospital staff, teachers, doctors...there are many. There is an at risk notification when a woman is pregnant.
No I highly doubt it would be just the grandfather. You never really know what other people's true lives entail.

Thats what I was thinking. I have heard of some shocking stories where docs have been notified, by friends/family/schools and have not been able to do anything. It just seems strange to take a bub so young?

If the parents were unable or unwilling to protect the child from the grandfather (and there were serious concerns about him) this would be enough to remove a young baby.

Young babies are so vulnerable, and unfortunately sometimes are removed from parents at birth or before they even leave hospital if the parents are unable to care for or protect them from harm.

Every state in Australia has different legislation and processes etc. I know that in QLD there can just be one notification for action to be taken, but I believe in NSW there needs to be several reports before the matter is investigated. I know that it seems horrible to remove a newborn baby from his/ her parents, but on the other hand they are the most vulnerable and rely soley on their caregivers to ensure their care and protective needs. If the parents arent able to demonstrate an understanding of the concerns regarding the GF and cannot demonstrate their ability to prioritise their little one's safety by continuing to live with the GF, they are unlikely to be able to protect that child from harm...

Its hard to say without knowing all the facts!

Thanks HotI, that does make sense. I would assume though that docs would work with the parents to help them get care re-established with the child asap?

Normally that is what DOCs (or similar) also want to see happen- for bub to be back with family. If the parents are willing to work with them and do the things required to show that they can protect the bub, the process should go quicker.

thanks HotI :)

Removal of newborns is more common than you would think. I've had dealings with several foster carers in the past month who have had bubs from hospital discharge. I hadn't noticed how frequent it was coming up until just recently...

Oh really BG? I find that to be so sad (because I dont like the idea of babies been taken away from families, but also the need to have them taken away). Im thinking the nurses must notice something wrong, especially if its a first born then?

In my experience there needs to be alot of evidence. I have reported (mandatory in my work) a number of times over the years, and have been told many times that they gather reports from a variety of sources. The more reports from a variety of sources, the faster the case is acted on. That's why, even if you feel something you have observed isn't THAT bad, when put into consideration with something several others may have reported, a clearer picture is built - and it's very important to actually tell someone.

That said though, if there is only one piece of evidence, but it's a big piece (like obvious bruising or something) the wheels will move much faster - usually within hours.

Thanks Ausgirl.
That makes sense.

It is sad, but I think, in the grander scheme if thing, a living environment is far mie important than biology. One lady I was speaking with had a seven year old in her care that had been there from four days old. He knew his bio mum but the courts granted perm care of him to the foster carers until adulthood so there must have been overwhelming evidence that it was safer for him. I only noticed cos the two boys shared the same first name do I asked!

Familial care orders are also very common, even for new new birds. I am assuming there is string evidence as to why the parents are unable/unfit to care for the babies in these cases. I have a huge amount if admiration for foster carers who take on a new born, knowing they will bond, but the child may be removed from their care in a week, month, years...

Totally agree BG, I always figured it must be bad for them to take a newborn.
Growing up, I always wanted to be a foster carer. DH and I have talked about it and have said we will look into it in the future when our babies are older. But Im not sure if I am strong enough to handle the uncertainty of it all.

I am going through this at the moment. Not me obviously but our nieces and nephew may be coming into our care. I can not speak for other states but i can for WA and i can say now that i really want to slap anyone who said that their child was removed for no reason ect. There is A LOT involved in removing a child from the care of their parents. I am seeing it first hand. My nephew was only 2 weeks old and close to starvation, they have had multiple reports form family, friends, complete strangers and health professionals. there are also violence reports and the police have rang DCP and asked why on earth these kids are still in their mothers care. But DCP maintain as much as they want to take the children they cant cause there is not enough evidence that they can use in court.
Any way long story but i guess what im trying to say id that i would bet money that there is more to the story than you have been told.
I really hope that they are able to sort them self out so their child can have a happy, stable , safe family life!

From my experience (professional, not personal), there is far too much that has to be done before DCP gets involved.

We had clients many years ago (the downside to doing a portion of legal aid work!), who had 3 children all of whom were in and out of care. When their fourth baby was born she was seized by DCP from the maternity ward within hours of her birth. TBH all I can think is that that little baby had it lucky. Her brothers and sister weren't anywhere near as fortunate. 15 odd years later I still have a little cry at times thinking of what those children were subjected to.

Oh Mummabear, it does sound like a saga. i suppose that the upside is that the dcp is doing everything it can to make sure they are making the right decision for the children?
I have no doubt that they dont remove children without good cause, with this case I suppose I was in shock because the newborn, is that a newborn. She was born less than a month ago. She was prem (think 34wks ish gestation) because mum was experiencing pregnancy related issues. As you said I do hope its sorted out with the bubs best interests taken care of.
I also hope that your nieces and nephew's situation is resolved soon for you too. It must be heartbreaking to go through such a situation

That must be the hardest part for children being in out of care, not knowing where their permanent safe home is, or what it is.

It really sounds like there is a very fine line between what is going on and what needs to be proved before a child can be taken. LuluHB, I kind of have the same opinion that too much goes on before they will do something about it.

So then does anyone know how common it would be for a first born bub to be taken so early on? I understand that there would be a difference if there was a history with other children in the family, but first born and basically fom hospital would be different?

I know of a family who were well known to DOCS, both parents had mental issues due to drug use, etc. They went on to have a 3rd child and that baby was not taken from their care at birth. So my point is that if a family well known to DOCS wouldn't have a bub taken, it must be quite serious indeed for the removal of a 1st baby....how common? I don't know of anyone myself (thankfully) but I don't have that much contact with DOCS- well not on a regular basis.
Sometimes I suppose they can pre-determine that the parents don't have the mental capacity to safely care for a child (though in the case I just mentioned in my opinion it was obvious the parents we incapible - but they kept the child -until it was about 6 mths old anyway).

It's all so bl***y sad really. I remember my first time I had to report - I was a fresh director, I knew it was the right thing, didn't stop the tears when the children were seized that day, from my service.....just awful. And the worst part, we don't get follow up info on those children, they disappear into the system and you never hear of them again alot of the time.

in my street, a drug using couple had a baby. The baby was born addicted, so was prescribed methadone. The mother chose to sell the methadone, and use it herself, so the baby was in a very bad way. It took our local equiv of DOCS two years, before they took away the child. WHo had lived thru two years of NEEDING methadone, but not being GIVEN methadone. THey live a few doors down from me. (The boyfriend had interfered with the teenage DD, who only a few months ago, was charged by police, for stabbing the step-dad with a knife. Not hearsay, in our daily newspaper). I see kids being used as "cover" by dealers, they deal, with their child in the pram. The basket of the pram, holds the drug deals. Police patrol around here constantly, but still all this goes on. THose poor kids.

Babies born drug addicted are often fostered out from birth. Especially if both parents are users.

My ex foster sister's baby was to be taken at birth had she not been stillborn. The mum was/is a meth addict.

Thanks ladies,
Hadnt even thought about that. I know the grandfather is an addict (I think speed of something similar); but obviously Im not sure about them

I think it is good that Docs is there to protect the vunerable but so sad that it is needed ITMS.
I saw a premmie bub put into care while in the nursery, the parents where not allowed in...I think that was meth.
It does sound like there is a little more to the story then what they are saying.

Definately has to be rainbowbrite, Ive told my friend Im there for her if she needs to chat. And she said she'll take me up on it. I dont want to know for gossip, but I want to be there for my friend. it has me concerned that a newborn could be taken, the parents told they will not have custody for 12 months or more, the grandfather in court over child abuse claims etc. It has me concerned that my friend has 3 little kids of her own.

And I agree, Im glad there is an agency that is there to protect the vulnerable, but find it so sad that it is needed and needed so widely in the population.

I did want to ask, is required to follow a series of steps or is it up to the individual case worker for what happens to a family?

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All I can say, working in the area, is that there is a helluva lot more to that story than what you're being told. Absolutely.

To remove a first time newborn at that age = unusual but does happen. Something's going on that you're not told. I doubt it would be the grandfather - that's just not enough. The case worker determines what to do, in conjunction with a team leader. Occasionally it's run by the legal team too.

Best wishes.

Thanks Divvy!

Im actually starting to wonder how deep in the story I want to go. My friend is my friend and Im there for her if/when she needs me, but Im now starting to wonder how complicated and vulnerable this babby must be for it to be taken away under such long term circumstances.

My heart goes out to the case workers and all involved in such heartbreaking roles.

It would be unusual for a 6w old baby to be taken away for 12 months. Extremely unusual. It may be that she's getting confused - DOCS may be APPLYING for a 12 month order, rather than already HAVE a 12 month order - see the difference?

Which is why I'm saying there must be an awful lot more that you're NOT being told.

Thanks Divvy, I get ya! :)

what you've said (and others) has made sense. And now Im starting to realise just how bad of a situation Im lending my ear to. Im hoping its as you have said and docs are applying for a 12 month order and not the other.

All sound so sad.

Where I used to live there was a boy of 7 at the time (teen now) who used to turn up at our house at 6am and ask for breakfast and to play with our then 2 year old son. We heard the mother scream at the top of her lungs with all doors and windows shut. They lived on the other side of the road two doors down and we were in a very wide court. This boy always had brusing and just to top it off was ADHD (I have an ADHD child and it is hard work but this was real off) all my bells rang about this poor boy so I reported everything to the Police several times then one afternoon the boy turned up at our door with a cast on his arm it was broken badly in two places. I reported again. The school was aware as was half the neighbourhood. The school demanded the boy was medicated for his ADHD and the mother was taking his meds not the boy. Still the boy remained at the house with his mother, stepfather and half sister.
Eventually they moved and after several months mother rang to ask if I knew any dealers in the area. "Ah NO!" by this stage I was ropable but didn't know where they lived. The stepdad was a nice guy and was the only responsable adult in that house but worked long hours and didn't know about her drug taking but did find her behaviour odd. I don't know how he didn't know.
Long story short the parents broke up the kids were finally taken away but only after she did major damage to the little man and he ended up in hospital. The stepfather fought for both the kids for months and I'm happy to say that although the boy is scared by what his mother did to him he loves his stepfather to bits, is happy and healthy and on last report is now doing very well at school.
I wonder why nothing was done earlier, why did he have to endure such torture (so much I have not said) before he finally got to be with the only person who thought the world of him, his stepdad.

Oh fromscratch that is hearwrenching to read. Im glad the boy is now happy, but so sad he had to endure so much before someone stepped in.

So, the whole situation seems to be getting weird (IMO anyhow). So baby 1 was taken as I said in my op, but last week a second baby has been taken. Baby 2 is the first born (again) for my friend's sil (another one but from the same familly.
But now Im getting worried. This time round my friend says its because the parents arent mentally fit to care for bub. Then my friend said that the parents of baby 1 have got their case reports and apparently it has all those named in the reports and what they have said (which according to the docs website, they do not give out unless to a court??), and those who have been named in the report is the parents of baby 2. According to my friend its because they wanted to get priority on public housing and made up lies?

I just dont get it, something major is going on. And Im mainly worried that my friend is going to end up under docs watch (which apparently they have been before), and her lo's will be taken. Im worried that she doesnt get how serious things must be for 2 newborns to be taken from their parents (from hospital both times). Im just so sad and worried for her.

The reason I don't have my youngest with me is because of PND&A but my eldest has been taken into care because he was having contact with my great grandmother whos late husband was a pedo and people have reported that to DCP.

Thanks damprye, :hug:

Found out a little more, the mum of one of the babies taken ended up in hospital after 'one of their usual fights' . So I think there is definately more to the story than she ever told, but Im sure the pedo charges are part of it, including now what sounds like domestic and emotional abuse. Im sure theres more too..