Do you do time out or the naughty spot?

DS is now 2.5 and we're beginning to see him challenging us more and more. We've always tried to avoid 'punishment' based discipline and instead use positive reinforcement/redirection or talk about why we don't do things etc.

But, this is increasingly becoming more and more challenging and we are beginning to see a little bit of hitting. The way we've always approached hitting etc has been 'we don't hit people because it can hurt them. when you get hurt you feel sad. it doesn't feel good to feel sad does it'. But that isn't resonating right now.

So, the topic of time out or the naughty spot has come up a few times now... I'm not 100% sure it's the right approach for us right now. I'm still not sure if he is old enough to comprehend it, or whether it will even be any more effective than the approach we're currently using.

But, I would love to hear you're experiences with these sort of techniques. Does it work with your child? How do you implement it? When did you start? Any tips or pointers?

And, of course if you have any other ideas as to how we can make discipline a little bit more effective in our house that would be great too.

TIA

ETA: I guess overall I feel like he is pushing the boundaries at the moment (which is perfectly normal at his age), but I'm just not sure if we are doing a good job of defining and maintaining them IYKWIM?

At that age I used to just hold my kids if they were acting up. I'd just calmly put them on my knee and hold them until they calmed down and were relaxed. I didn't speak to them or fight with them, we'd just sit quietly until they were calm then I'd put them down. At first it took them a while to relax but after a while they would relax quite quickly. As they got older we used to put them in their bedrooms for a few minutes or until they were calm, they could do whatever they wanted int heir room. Usually by the time I went back to get them they were playing nicely or asleep.

I think Tinks ideas are great :-)

for the most part, kids want your attention - so withdrawing your attention until they have calmed down is perhaps a good way of handling it (i.e. holding their hand and waiting, or turning your back until they calm down, or putting them in bedroom until calm). Assuming they are not endangering themselves, they will eventually calm themselves down.

As long as you catch him when he is hitting and make it quite clear that he needs to stop then you'll define the boundaries. the only other question is maybe to consider that it's not that bad to take away privilages - this is how society works - it is not always positive reinforcement, there are natural consequences for your behaviour - so using natural consequences, and planned ignoring may be strategies that will help.

check out 123 Magic as another parenting resource you may be intrested in as well.

we did time out at that age and it worked well. We used the bathroom as it was boring, their bedrooms were far too interesting. Using a room for time out was good as the doorway was a clear boundary as to where they had to stay. I did the Super Nanny thing and warned them, then put them in there and told them why they were going in. Only did it for one to two minutes then explained to them what they had done wrong and asked them to say sorry or to tell me why they were in there then gave them a cuddle and sent them on their way.

Time out doesnt work as well now they are older. DD2 just laughs at us if we put her in time out!!! We now take away toys/ cancel activities

When DD2 was trying to hit bite DD1 we let DD1 know it was okay to say no to her and she could push her away as DD1 would stand there and cry rather than protect herself

It's tough, isn't it?
My DS is a bit older, but I'm finding things a bit challenging at the moment too. It's good to remember that they do go through periods of change and adjustment and it takes time for us to adjust too, before things settle down again.
At this age you're probably at the inbetween stage where redirection/distraction doesn't work, but the language skills aren't quite good enough for the talking discipline. I do like talking things through, also, as they do understand a lot (though there's often a time before they can really act on it) which sets you in good stead for later on. But 'Feeling sad', for eg, might be a bit abstract for your DS at this stage - some more concrete consequences might help, like I can't play with you if you hit me. How's his language? Is he frustrated? Does he act out more when tired and/or hungry? Sometimes just dealing with the udnerlying issues will help a lot.


Generally speaking, I do not use timeout etc, as I don't believe withdrawing attention or presence is a good thing for young kids. I have, however, on a few occasions been so flummoxed by his behaviour that I have taken him to his room and shut the door. It did not help, but gave me a chance to regroup before trying again. When kids act out, there's always a reason. It's not just them being bad or defying you, you know? Even when it really seems like that. Sometimes it's simply they're tired, hungry,sick, or maybe bored or frustrated about something, or maybe they're needing a bit more time with you, or maybe something else has happened to throw them out of equilibrium - and sometimes they just feel like **** and need to yell :). Sometimes, rather than time out, time in is better - you get down at their level and hear them out. It's harder when they don't talk much, but sometimes just really being there helps. They know it's ok to express their emotions because mummy is still there even at their worst.

My son is a little younger but we find that withdrawing him from the situation to be the most effective. We always explain like you, but he just needs the circuit breaker. We don't leave him alone as he's wouldn't understand that yet.

Following this he always has to say sorry for his behaviour, even if I say it on his behalf.

We have "the wall" its a specific spot at home but any wall works! Ds definitely understands and it works to break the problem at the time. I am within sight but usually turned away. He will cry and say sorry, he's only there for 30 secs or so. I don't use it much as a "warning" about "the wall" is enough iykwim

When DD was about that age we did time out b/c I couldn't reason with her (she was too young/immature to understand) only for a max of 2 mins. I used to put her next to our dining table with the oven timer on and I'd be around where she could see me. When the timer went off I'd explain to her what the negative behaviour was then we'd have a cuddle. She again was too young to get the whole apology thing. As she got older time out or time in didn't work, so now I try to tell reason with her to an extent. It's really tough and some kids won't respond to time out or reasoning etc... you really need to work out what your DD will respond to b/c each child is different.

they're definitely challenging!!

we haven't done any time out but i have removed him from a situation - we were at playgroup & he was getting too boisterous & pushing so i brought him to sit on my knee for a minute or two to calm down. he wasn't happy about it because it meant he was away from the other kids & didn't have access to the toys. i just explained why we don't push etc. i figure even if he doesn't understand 100% (although i'm sure he does), it doesn't hurt to go through the process of explaining why he's been taken away from a situation etc.

i haven't used time out or the naughty corner just because my gut feeling is that it's not necessarily the best approach for DS. he's an emotional little guy & if he gets truly upset he loses all sight of why he was upset or what he might have done 'wrong' in the first place.

sorry - not really helpful but wanted to let you know i understand :hug:

We use time out here, but it's not withdrawn, it is with us on a boring wall in the kitchen. They simply have to sit there to calm down with us still around, and then we chat. We have adapted Magic 1 2 3 with counting and staying calm (although I do need to re-read it) The key is to explain your expectations and if they are doing something inappropriate and you get to 3 that's it. Sometimes an apology is enough and we carry on but if we feel that they don't know why they might be in trouble or don't understand we sit and explain, then cuddle and carry on.

It's so hard - right now mine are sooking and whining over every little thing and I am finding it hard to find some patience.

Love time out here! It's a great calm way to show that the particular behaviour is unacceptable! No ranting yelling mummy just a calm hand held to the front door. Then and explanation at the end, an apology to whomever and then you are free. We start this at about 18 months old ;)

I have occasionally removed DD over the years to the laundry to quieten down. The only time this was used was when her behavior was potentially physically harmful (ie hitting - if you are going to hurt someone then you can't be around them). I can count on one hand the number of times I needed to use this with her (although the threat was used more often!). Like you, I prefer consequences, rather than punishments. I figure time alone to calm down and think about your behavior (even at 2) is a suitable consequence for lashing out at another person. And I never left her in there for very long, but before coming out, asked her to apologize and talked about it. The apology bit wasn't always forthcoming... ;)

I found counting to five was the most effective circuit breaker for her behavior (not when she'd lost it - that's just emotional development and I generally tried to be more understanding of how she was feeling then). It was always a very calm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and then the situation is resolved by me (task done, thing taken away, child removed, whatever, no discussion, no fuss). Gave her time to gather herself and ensured I stayed in control of myself too.

We use time out or even removing yourself to a calm place to settle down here.

It's definately something that needs to be adjusted to suit the age of the child and even the temprement but me personaly i feel there needs to be a point where some form of consequences are learnt.

With DS1 i don't know at what age i started using it but i remember the beginnings of 3 being a real challenge so it might have been around this stage. I would warn him about his behaviour and and that if he didn't stop he would be spending a few min in his room. If it got to that point i would put him in this room and when i went to bring him back out we'd have a little chat and a hug. I try to be firm and clearn in what is happening and why.

DS2 is 3 in March in this second part of the year there have been a few occasions where i have done it with him. He has learnt a lot earlier about pushing the boundries from his big brother. He too knows how to push his brothers 'buttons' and create issues to the point where i'm dealing with two children who just will not back down.

In the taking yourself off to a calm place option sometimes DS1 gets extemely frustrated at his little brother and if things don't go his way so i have tried to get him to learn to remove himself and go away to a quiet place until he calms down and feels better. He's got a really quick temper like his dad :lol:

Definately find what works for you and your child :)

We have just started time out as well following the 1-2-3 Magic theory. I tried the sitting down and explaining thing but it just goes right over DS's head and I feel like I'm on constant repeat! Very frustrating for me. Time out for us is anywhere - at home I send him to his room. It does not matter if he plays with his toys, sits on his bed or reads a book or whatever, it's just a time out from the situation. In public, it can be right there on the spot, on my lap, or I take them back to the car (really inconvenient but only had to do it once so far). I do the 3 count - that's 1, that's 2 and 3 is time out. For more serious actions like hitting his sister, it's an immediate 'that's 3 - timeout'. I find this works for us because it takes the emotion out of it (for me) and avoids the drama from escalating. So more of a time out for both of us than anything. Most of the time I only get to 1 or 2 before he stops whatever it is I've asked him to stop, so it seems really effective.

I don't know if this will help, but our LO has finally learnt what "gentle" means.

When he goes to hit, bite, or play too rough I calmly (took some time to get to calm) say: Robert, gentle. He stops what he's doing and will either pat or cuddle (depending if it's a book, toy or person) and say "gentle". Then it's praise-praise-praise.

With DS1 (when he was older, 3-5) I would count him down (using 1-2-3). One was a warning, 2 was a second warning - he knew that if I got to 3 he was in "serious trouble", ie, time-out; toys taken away, mummy being cross etc. The important thing was to follow through and be consistent. After he started to comprehend that his actions had consequences it was only the rare occasion that we got past 2 and three quarters.

Good luck!

Haven't read all the replies, but we have always used time outs, but I really don't like them. I don't think they work.
I am reading a book at the minute called "Positive Discipline" and she has written a companion "Positive Timeouts" - some fabulous ideas in there and techniques for using positive time-outs to diffuse a situation without negativity or punishment.
I bought it at The Book Depository for about $20 I think with free post, so well worth it.

We've started looking after my nephews a lot (family issues), so in teh past few weeks we've needed to 'guide' J a couple of times. Mainly about screaming in the house - it affects Mum differently to others, as she has Multiple Sclerosis, so he needs to learn that he can't scream when he's here. The other thing he does is this grating, fake cry when he's unhappy about something. We're trying to encourage him to tell us what's wrong, so we can help with it, rather than just sit there getting progressively more hysterical at us.

We have a naughty chair, which is in full view of everyone, it's between the lounge/dining area. He can still see us, but he seems to realise that he needs to stay there, because we never have to keep him on it, he waits for us to get him. He's never on there for more than 3 mins, as he's only 3 yrs. Honestly though, Mum and I hate it with a passion. He sobs and sobs when he's on the chair, and when he comes off he's cringing - I don't know what's going on in his head, but I don't like the outward signs.

Last week when he lost it and wouldn't listen, I just picked him up and held onto him, so he needed to calm down. I stood for a bit, until he calmed down, and then I sat on the couch but kept holding him and rubbed his back, until his breathing was regular and he would talk to me. He finally told me what he needed, and then I was able to help him - I much prefer that method personally.

Thanks so much for all of your responses. I really value your sharing what works for you. I'm just feeling quite out of my depth right now. Many of the techniques such as holding them close, taking them away for a little quiet time, helping them to get control of their emotions etc are what I've always used, but are failing me big time at the moment. Now if I try these things he starts hitting and slapping me which just creates a whole other thing to address (which I am not doing well).

And the violence towards other kids is also getting out of control. Until this morning, I'd only ever seen him give a little push. But today we were at a cafe where they have a cubby and toys for the LO's and DS and another little boy were in the cubby. The other boy was in his way so DS shoved him and then slapped him across the face :o I couldn't believe it, it was so rough. I yelled stop straight away and went over and got him and told him that because he couldn't play nicely he would have to sit with mummy. Then explained the whole why we don't hit etc and said that I thought he should say sorry (I don't tell him to say sorry, because I don't think I should be forcing him to IYKWIM). He sat on my knee for about 30 seconds before trying to get off and I asked him if he wanted to say sorry and he said he did, so we went over but then he got a bit shy. Thankfully the other mum was very understanding. But I really feel like I didn't handle it particularly well. Or more so that he didn't learn anything from it.

I don't want to be a parent who yells and screams. I want to teach rather than dictate. But right now it feels like my teaching methods are failing miserably. His language is very good for his age and I know he understands what I'm saying (in terms of what hurt, happy, sad etc mean) - I'm just not sure he comprehends the meaning of it if that makes sense.

It's awful when his bad behavior is directed at other children, like today. While I believe in the approach we're taking to discipline him, it feels like everyone else is looking at me thinking I handled it terribly and that I should be yelling etc... I can't help but wonder if what we're doing just isn't working, if it is the age, or there are other factors at play. I don't know what i'm meant to do when I'm trying to calm him down or take him away from a situation and he starts hitting me. I can't let him continue, in some instances (like today) I can't just put him down and distance myself from him because he is hitting me... The carers at CC keep telling me his change in behavior is because I'm pregnant and they all do it at this stage, but I find that hard to believe. It just seems that we're going through a really difficult patch. I'm not sure if I should keep doing what we're doing or I need to employ some new techniques...

OK, this has definately turned into more of a vent. thanks for reading.

Everybody keeps mentioning the 123 Magic approach - it would be great if you could give me an overview of how it works.

well, i don't think you should give a stuff what the other people are thinking! but i do think you should do what feels right to you & what you think will benefit your DS in the long run. fwiw, i think lots of children at our LOs age do similar things - especially the boys. i know it doesn't help you feeling terrible - a friend who has a little girl that gets a bit boisterous said to me that she feels so bad it's like it was an extension of her own arm that pushed or hit another child. that summed it up perfectly for me - i feel terrible every time it happens esp when my DS is a loving, gentle little person for the most part.

i think it's tough until they can communicate a bit better to really know that they understand why what they did was wrong but i do think it's important to be consistent in your approach & staying calm & not yelling is a good example to your DS on how to handle a situation & stays focused on the issue rather than becoming an emotion-charged yelling match. i try to give DS alternative courses of action as well - if i can see that a push has resulted from frustration, then i try to explain how he could have just (for eg) said no or please move etc. i really hope it's sinking in!

:hug: i think it's even harder to deal with when you are filled with PG hormones as well.

I have read parts of 123 magic. it is about remaining calm and counting and then having consequences. but i will let someone who has gone through it explain it more eloquently!

for me, i have had diff approaches with DS1 and DS2, just due to their personalities. i didnt use timeout or anything like that with DS1 at that age but he was totaly emotional and v hardly did anything that may need it. he was pretty easy (in hindsight) and i used to remove him and tell him what he had done and why we dont do that etc

DS2, who is 2.5 as well is another case... he is much more testing and pushes lots of boundaries. he has also learned from ds1. I do take him to his room. i tell him what i want him to do and then count - if we get to 3 he goes to his room and tghen i get him and ask if he is ready for whatever we need him to do. he reacts well to being removed from the situation.if he does something totally unacceptable - he is removed straight away and i explain what he did and why it is wrong. this works well with him (would never have worked for DS1 though)

They have both been v advanced in speech and comprehension so i do a lot of explainming later - but i do think they need some space and time - rather than being 'talked at' when they are frsutrated, upset etc

Also positive reinforcement of what you do want is great - make a big song and dance over good sharing and nice behavior and ignore the bad (otr give morer attention to the person he hurt than to him). star charts/rewards/lots of praise - its more fun too.

I also think at this age it can be about control for them - so sometimes setting expectations. e.g. someone is coming over and they will want toplay with your toys. they wont take them home, they are still yours but they will use them while they are here. lets get some out that you are happy for them to play with. (then go over that a bit when theya re there)

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I have read parts of 123 magic. it is about remaining calm and counting and then having consequences. but i will let someone who has gone through it explain it more eloquently!

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Yep that is it in a nutshell - I know that there is a DVD series as well. I have the book but as mentioned earlier I need to re-read it! One thing that he mentions in it is that not every behaviour needs a long drawn out discussion and in depth D&M!! Sometimes they are naughty, know they have done something wrong, need to sit in time out away from whatever else is going on for a few minutes and then carry on again without needing the meaning of life/sharing/fighting explained!! :rofl: Something along those lines anyway but it struck me because I overanalyse sometimes and need to realise that keeping it simple is the best case sometimes!

I think you're handling this well! Truly. I agree yelling will not get you anywhere - you'll only be teaching another bad habit.
The CC ladies are probably right about this being a phase. And don't forget - there's a lag between comprehension and being able to act on things (or restrain themselves for that matter). Just because they understand, doesn't mean they can or will do as you ask.
The hitting is really hard one and I totally understand your frustration and anxiety about it! Here's a blog post that might give you a few ideas (and also validate your response so far).

Talking thigns through and leading by example takes time. You do have to do it over and over. And you will often get to the point where you think this is not working, my kid will never get it... and then they do. And they really, really get it. It's not a conditioned response to fear of punishment or striving to get a reward, it's actually them regulating themselves. So it's worth it. It just takes time. Be kind to yourself though - you're not a superhero so some days it might all be too much and that's ok. It doesn't mean you've failed or anything.

With regards to the hitting also, maybe consider diet too. Sometimes there's more than one thing going on.

ETA - I also think that when kids are worked up, talking to them right then can often just make it worse. And, even more important than letting them know something is wrong, is figuring out why they are acting out. There is always a reason. :hug:

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Yep that is it in a nutshell - I know that there is a DVD series as well. I have the book but as mentioned earlier I need to re-read it! One thing that he mentions in it is that not every behaviour needs a long drawn out discussion and in depth D&M!! Sometimes they are naughty, know they have done something wrong, need to sit in time out away from whatever else is going on for a few minutes and then carry on again without needing the meaning of life/sharing/fighting explained!! :rofl: Something along those lines anyway but it struck me because I overanalyse sometimes and need to realise that keeping it simple is the best case sometimes!

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Yep exactly that. The whole idea of it is to avoid the talk-persuade-argue-yell-smack syndrome. The idea is to use counting on the behaviours you want your child to stop (such as arguing, fighting, yelling, teasing, etc) and using praise and encouragement for start behaviours (brushing teeth, picking up toys, going to bed, etc). With the counting, the idea is to give the child a warning (that's 1), give him/her a chance to stop (that's 2) and if the child doesn't stop (that's 3) you give time out or a time out alternative (removal of favourite toy, earlier bedtime, etc). And the time out length is 1 minute for every year of age. So a 3 year old would get a 3 minute time out.

At the end of the day when they are so young, explanations get lost on them. They are after all just kids and sometimes trying to explain things to them, it's like I'm trying to explain something to an adult which is just frustrating for me and annoying for them. For example, DS knows it's good to share his toys with his sister so I don't really need to give him an explanation each time he takes toys off her, it's time out. It's enough to give everyone a chance to refocus.

TBH I've never really got the time out or naughty corner thing. When DD was being naughty there is just no way she would stand in a naughty corner and where would we do time out other than in another room that she could get out of. Never made sense to me. I have an ongoing joke with a friend that the kids who will stand in a naughty corner ain't really naughty to start with.

I probably did/do a mixture of the 1-2-3 (without realising) and the consequences. She's a bit older than your DS but she's had it drummed into her that a) you say sorry if you do the wrong thing and b) you don't hit even if someone hits you first.

I say sorry to her if I've yelled at her and I explain why - "mummy was tired but it was still the wrong thing to do etc. etc."

In hindsight, at 2.5 she was still so little and her behaviour (eg. tantrums when she wasn't getting her own way) has changed a lot just because she's a little older.

I think as long as there's progress and if most of the time they're a 'nice' kid, then don't stress too much (I know it's really hard not to).

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TBH I've never really got the time out or naughty corner thing. When DD was being naughty there is just no way she would stand in a naughty corner and where would we do time out other than in another room that she could get out of. Never made sense to me. I have an ongoing joke with a friend that the kids who will stand in a naughty corner ain't really naughty to start with.

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This has always been my view also. I never really understood why a kid who was being 'naughty' would be happy enough to stand in a corner, or sit in a room quietly.

Its really interesting reading the responses here, DD has started acting out and has been demonstrating rough play with me and the baby but I figured this is her way of processing feelings she doesn't understand - jealousy, resentment etc.

I guess I grew up with parents who did the 1-2-3magic type style of parenting ...... and from MY experience as the "naughty child" it was completely ineffective. I copped so many wooden spoons broken over me that it wasn't funny. If your going to teach a child consequences to actions it needs to be done immediately not 2 warnings then strike. Sorry for the reference but you don't say to a naughty puppy 1-2-3NO, there is the "naughty" behaviour then correction straight away.

You can be firm and still be kind about it but whatever you choose to do it needs to be consistant. Good Luck hun I hope you find the right method for you.

Miss E, I've never done naughty corners or time out and don't intend to. Pinky McKay is a great read for alternative and compassionate responses to a child's brain fizzle :) Also, Alfie Kohn has a very useful website with informative articles that are backed up by empirical research. As does Robin Grille's work.
They are absorbing so much every day in their development at this time, that adding shame and isolation to the mix makes this time of learning so much harder to navigate for them.
When we clash with them it's like any other relationship - needs aren't being met and communication isn't effective. In a child's case it's because their communication skills are undeveloped for speech and they are telling us in other ways that something is up. The biggest thing I remember at this age in my kids is that they really want to be understood (don't we all?), even if we can't get what we want, so finding out what's wrong first, acknowledging it next, then coming to a resolution that suits both parties worked far better for our continuing relationship than any punitive measure would have.
I've never set up any 'consequences', either - DS learns from consequences such as having me be hurt or sad, or his sister hurt. Those are huge consequences for little people, especially when they really don't set out to cause unhappiness.
My DD is just over 2yo and I find I can give her explanations of things and she picks up the gist to understand me. When she's not receptive to explanations it's because whatever is going on is big enough in her head to override everything else and then it's my job to figure that out and give her the time and effort to help her regulate.
We're not born to emotionally self-regulate, it's something we learn, and we don't learn to acknowledge our feelings and work on solutions by being put in naughty corners or left in isolation as small people. We learn it from those around us and bigger than us. Naughty corners, time outs and any other punishments encourage kids to think about themselves and their own hurt feelings, rather than how they have affected anyone else. Even if they do have some notion of how they have affected someone else they are not being taught how to work through it, other than being taught how to avoid the real issue. The real issue is usually to do with how they have done something that has made things harder for the other person, hurt them, made them scared etc. If we want them to avoid that happening again then it needs to be addressed then and there, and the appropriate responses modelled. For ages now my DD will do something to DS, see his sad reaction and then go and hug him saying "So So" (i.e. sorry), and not because I've told her to do it, but because that's what she sees happen between DS and I, DS and dad and me and her if I've done something to her without thinking.
Most of it is modelling. It takes longer and lasts longer. Punitive responses may 'work' in the short term, and create other problems that affect their future human interactions. Yes, they'll still love you, they'll still trust you, but not because of naughty corners and time outs - just because kids are so forgiving and have generous spirits. Until we erode them enough that by the time they are teenagers they see no need to believe that our way of dealing with them is useful or respectful of them, so they take their chances with the outside world with the tools we have taught them.
The people I know who have teenagers either tell me that I have to smack, use naughty corners, use time outs (yes, some do! There are plenty of those well-meaning people around!!), or they say that they love what I'm doing with my kids and that they did the same kinds of things. The former example then always follows that up with "then they are teenagers and they become awful", and the latter don't have to say anything at all because I know the kinds of mutually respectful and genuinely beautiful relationships they have with their current teenagers.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Go with your gut and disregard the attitudes and words of people who tell you things that don't sit right with YOU and how you want to set up relationships with YOUR kids.
From what you have written I don't think the 'conventional wisdom' will honour you or your intentions for your kids.
Go with logic and love :hug:

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I guess I grew up with parents who did the 1-2-3magic type style of parenting ...... and from MY experience as the "naughty child" it was completely ineffective. I copped so many wooden spoons broken over me that it wasn't funny. If your going to teach a child consequences to actions it needs to be done immediately not 2 warnings then strike. Sorry for the reference but you don't say to a naughty puppy 1-2-3NO, there is the "naughty" behaviour then correction straight away.

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FYI 1-2-3 Magic doesn't actually advocate hitting or smacking, it's idea is to not use hitting and smacking (which are essentially adult temper tantrums).

Also, you don't have to count to 3 every time. For example, if DS pushes DD I will say 'That's 3 - time out'. No warning, but an immediate consequence that he has to have a break from playing with whatever they were playing with/doing. He goes to his room and he may not be quiet, he may not sit still, he doesn't have to, it's just a time out from the situation.

I guess I've use a 'time out' of sorts - I have taken both my child AND I out of the situation, in order to have a talk about what's happened. I never send my child away to be on their own to process the situation, because I don't think it's developmentally appropriate or fair. HTH

Yeah that's how I see it Mayaness, using 1,2,3 time out as a warning and break from the situation for everyone to have a breather (including me sometimes! ;) ).

Although, I've eased off on the explanations because at age 3, they just go over DS's head. I started off using a 'time-out' corner (don't like using the term 'naughty corner' bit too negative for me) but just ended up getting frustrated when he wouldn't stay there. Sending him to his room where he can read a book, play with some lego or another toy, etc seems to be quite effective. Or instead of time out I do an alternative like no lego for one day or we won't be going to the park this afternoon, kinda like removal of priveleges.

If it's something serious like fighting, hitting, etc then I give the explanation. But if it's something like climbing up the kitchen drawers for example, he's been told many times not to do it so I don't give any explanation, just a warning. The extent of my explanations come with the initial "that's 1". For example, "Stop running through the house it's dangerous if you bump into someone or something - that's 1". If he doesn't stop, I just say "that's 2", and then if he still doesn't stop "That's 3 - time out". DS gets 3 minutes (one minute for each year of age), which seems to be ample time for him.

And for every negative action I give (like every time out) I try and make sure I give at least 5 positive reinforcements like praising, etc. Some days it just seems like you're saying no to them all day long and it can become quite depressing constantly saying no and stop so making sure we have lots of praise and fun and thank you's and showing appreciation makes for happier days and (hopefully) a good relationship with each other.

I give explanations still, and my eldest is 5yo. I give him less repetitions and I realise that he'll still need repetition for a while. Making an arbitrary time marker for when I stop giving repetitions doesn't make sense to me - if he needs it he needs it, and I accepted a long time ago that I'd be getting repetitive! I don't give 'warnings' in that sense, though I will let DS know how I'm starting to feel and the options open to him for changing that outcome or staying on that tack of action, without it sounding threatening. If I say we're going to leave somewhere as a result of him not listening to people so that everyone feels happy and safe then that's what I do once I realise he's just beyond making peace-making decisions. He deserves my explanations, he's still learning so much about the world and how to negotiate.
I rarely just say 'no' and expect them to understand exactly what I mean by that, because 'no' is not enough, though I was brought up to believe it was. It isn't respectful, IMO - I'd hate it if I was doing something and another person told me 'no' with nothing else in it. In fact, some people HAVE done this and it's ended badly - on a fireground I can accept that, because it's going to be in context and under extreme pressure, but I've had officers try that punitive crap with me and I lost so much respect for them. As an aside, since I left that brigade I have heard stories of treatment of members becoming more and more power-based and I think it's disgusting because they are now doing it to the Juniors...not exactly teaching them effective leadership! It all ties in with how I feel about teaching co-operation.
And, as I said, if DS is being taken out of a situation I go with him. It happens so rarely that I think I may have done it once this year. I've done yelling and so want to dispense with it, and I'm glad I haven't resorted to sending him off alone.
I don't do praise. For reasons Alfie Kohn articulates far better than I can, and he has an article on it specifically. It always sat ill with me and when I read his work it hit the nail on the head, made me cry and put words to feelings I had when I remembered my mum, in particular, using praise. Really, my genuine appreciation of DS's actions are reward enough, because he can see how his actions have helped and how that ends up with a happier mama. I don't threaten that I'll be angry or unhappy and I don't praise him in order to manipulate him into doing the action again. I don't want him to do things for my approval, but for the bigger picture of harmony, easier life and more time to have fun and enjoy each other. This is why doing it 'my' way (and plenty of others'!) takes longer and has more benefit over a life span, because it teaches the kids about intrinsic rewards - those that can't be revoked or bargained for, or induced by the promise of praise :)
I've had a long time to think about this, and I do get accused of 'over-thinking' it. I figured that it was best to 'over-think' it when DS was very little and have it come more easily to me when the going got tough and it has served me well. I still fall by the wayside (like I said, my vice is yelling, which snuck up on me and into the toolbox :( ) and the stuff I really thought about just doesn't happen because I trained brain out of it early on. It's challenging, that's for sure. The kids are worth the effort.
This is all stuff you learn in Parent Effectiveness Training that I'd love to get more formal education on (just finished my degree, it can wait a little longer!), and Alfie Kohn and Robin Grille borrow heavily from him in their writing.
Parenting doesn't have to be the minefield others make it out to be. Keeping the kids happy is also important, much to the disgust of those raised in the 50s when kids really weren't respected or considered important enough to tell parents that their actions affected their children into adulthood. The quintessential "but I turned out OK" generation who perpetuate war, punitive justice systems and inequality in legislation :rolleyes: "OK" by what standard? Not by mine, anyway!
I know lots of people steadfastly stick to the praise and reward way of doing things, because it's what they know, or it's better than the abuse they copped as children. There's no rule that says you can't change your approach at any time and revise it in accordance with something that serves everyone better and respects the growing and absorbent spirits :)

We do time-ins together to talk about what happened. what DS did, and what happened next and what might he do differently next time. it takes time. a lot of time. but even at 3 he was getting this.it's jut small building blocks we stack up over time to work toward our goal of consideration and respect of others, etc.

And basically what Mayaness said :) I haven't actually read Kohn or others, but read the PET book when DS was little. Very, very helpful. And I also kind of agree that overthinking is good sometimes. It helps to unlearn 'crap' before actually learning to tune in with my kids and myself.

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I rarely just say 'no' and expect them to understand exactly what I mean by that, because 'no' is not enough, though I was brought up to believe it was. It isn't respectful, IMO - I'd hate it if I was doing something and another person told me 'no' with nothing else in it.

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I agree but there are times when it wouldn't need the over thinking/explaining. Here are a few example of what I meant with the over explainin/thinking.

Can I have ice-cream? It's nearly dinner time so no not until after dinner. Continue to ask for it and it get's counted - no further explanation needed - get to 3 and it's time out (or in for us with us)
Hit your brother/sister other serious behaviours are 3 straight away with time out/in.
Iz can you clean up your toys please? Doesn't get done for whatever reason - get's counted, so she gets a few chances to do it before time out.... It's not about giving them time to keep doing the bad behaviour - it actually reiterates that we have asked reasonably for something to be done and if it doesn't get done there will be a consequence. For DD being 4.5 - there is no need to over explain WHY we need her toys picked up, she knows it's messy, needs to be done prior to dinner. Not sure if that makes sense.

Naenae - Not sure if that make sense but as for the 123 - it gives them time to correct the behaviour or whining, but if the behaviour is serious then it's 3 right away.

I think though the thing that's missing here is understanding your child's motivation in behaving this way, or other contributing factors.

This morning DD was sitting on one of those fold out kiddy couches when DS came along and pushed her over. Her head got a good thunking. I was sorely tempted to yell at him and send him to his room :)
Instead I took him aside and talked to him about this. He wasn't too happy to be taken away from his game and got quite upset - a sure sign he needed food and/or water. So I decided i'd better sort that out before he did anything else to his sister.
Once he was calmed down, he was able to tell me why he did this. He wasn't actually trying to be rough with her, just oblivious. He wanted to put something under the couch she was sitting on and she was simply in the way. Consideration for others is something we are currently working on teaching DS... it's a tough one!

Been through the ice-cream/chockies/lollies/sweet things before dinner here! I explain that he needs to eat the food that helps his body work properly first, then the nice stuff that only makes his tongue feel nice after, if there's still room for it (and wouldn'tchya know it, there always is!). If he asks again I say "Can you tell me what I just told you about eating x before dinner?", and if he gets it mixed up we talk about it again. If he keeps asking after that I say "I already told you why you can't eat it before dinner so if you ask any more I'm not going to answer because you already know". It usually doesn't get to that final stage, and if it does he resigns himself. I mean, WE know why ice cream before dinner is no good after a lifetime of knowing (though not when we were little, we put it together when we were a lot older, I bet), and kids need to be told what the reasons are and have it reiterated from time to time. Kids learn their world by repetition, not by 1-2-3's. That only teaches them blind obedience. Obedience is not my ultimate aim, understanding and cooperation is.
MadB - it's so often like that, isn't it? In horseriding we say "back to basics", and in human terms we say KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid)! It's always something really basic that's going on when others are getting hurt! Of course their aim isn't to hurt someone else, that's always a side-effect. DS now refers to it as 'being horrified' when DD accidentally hurts him, ever since the time his pony kicked him in the belly and I explained that she would have been worried about something, not known just where he was and that if she knew that she had hurt her boy she'd be horrified. So, when he explained to DP what happened, he told him that his pony kicked him and was horrified!
It is so worth the time to find the motivations behind behaviours, because 'behaviour' is a symptom of what's going on, it's not an end in itself. When you take the time to communicate with them about what's driven them to do something you take your relationship to a rich new level between the two of you :)

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Been through the ice-cream/chockies/lollies/sweet things before dinner here! I explain that he needs to eat the food that helps his body work properly first, then the nice stuff that only makes his tongue feel nice after, if there's still room for it (and wouldn'tchya know it, there always is!). If he asks again I say "Can you tell me what I just told you about eating x before dinner?", and if he gets it mixed up we talk about it again. If he keeps asking after that I say "I already told you why you can't eat it before dinner so if you ask any more I'm not going to answer because you already know". It usually doesn't get to that final stage, and if it does he resigns himself. I mean, WE know why ice cream before dinner is no good after a lifetime of knowing (though not when we were little, we put it together when we were a lot older, I bet), and kids need to be told what the reasons are and have it reiterated from time to time.

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same :)

It is funny the things I say to DD though - guess I'm already in this habit. I'll have to make it a bit simpler for her, though, I think.

Tanstar - agree, that's how I see the 1,2,3 work. Long winded explanations are sometimes just too much for my 3 year old, straight to the point. You can explain something in a short sentence and I think the message is clearer and doesn't get lost in all the talk. Straight to the point. Sometimes us adults talk too much ;)

MadB - see when DS pushes DD over he gets a 'that's 3' and time out in another room while I tend to DD. If I was to go straight to him and sit down with him to talk about what happened, then he clicks on to getting the attention from me when he does something like that. More often than not he will come out of time out and tell me what he wanted without any prompting from me. And then we have a quick chat about it all and be on our merry way :)

so you reckon the end result is the same?

I used to do 1,23 - it seemed to work with DS. until he started daring us to get to 3. then it kind of felli n a heap because if he didn't want to do something (or did) then that was that (found the same thing with rewards, which I never wanted to do anyway). so we had to start talking about it and explain why we need to do something (or not do it). we do still use the countdown thing, though, maybe it' sa bit different. gives him warning that something or other is coming up or going to change. he negotiates about how much time is left though. Me: 3 minutes to go! Him: No, I want 4 minutes!

I do wonder how we'll have to do things differently wiht DD. We can see she's a different character - wonder to what extent we'll need to modify our approach. You know I was really surprised today to see that she understood when I told her mummy was sore because she bit my finger. She showed such empathy - something I never noticed in DS at this age. I had thought little kids were really self-absorbed and wrapped up in their own stuff, but I suppose it must actually vary a fair bit.

anyway, time out for me is just a last-resort circuit breaker if things get out of hand. It doesn't work for me as a means of teaching.

No-one said anything about long-winded - just an explanation, so as not to underestimate their understanding :) My kids deserve a considered and intelligent explanation that fosters positive and constructive thinking. My 2yo understands so much more than I often think she will, and I only know this because I will explain something that I want and she goes off to do it. I could so easily underestimate her and end up with tantrums and frustration. We don't have them, unless it's a safety issue (like wanting to ride my horse or wanting to go in the car when she's not supposed to be coming with me!), because our kids feel understood - not always catered to, but understood, which helps us all heaps. No-one wants to feel fobbed off.
One thing I learned from a very wise mama was to 'tend to the injured'. I model for the 'offending' child how to check for injuries, and to soothe the other party, by genuinely caring for the injured party and saying "I'm so sorry that this happened to you". When the height of the injury is passed, the offender can come over and I'll show them and talk to them about how their actions caused the situation, without inducing shame. DS now hates me apologising on his behalf, so he comes over and apologises on his own behalf, with a kiss - which is sometimes rejected and I tell him that he'll have to wait until DD is feeling safe enough to take his kiss and snuggle. The offender gets to see the fallout in all its glory - no time outs so that they can't experience a real consequence. DS feels terrible when he's hurt his sister (always by accident, or as a side-effect of another goal of his), because he knows what her face looks like when it's sad, he knows how many snuggles she needs etc.
I find something else of very useful value - telling my kids what I want them to do, instead of what I don't want them to do. Being specific helps them so much. Telling them the thing you don't want them to do only focuses on what you don't want...which takes their minds back to that thing and even in an adult brain negatives like this don't get processed well at all and the brain just hears "x", instead of "don't do x". Giving real options, again may take more initial brain effort, gives kids opportunities to learn about how the world works. It doesn't sell them short.
Then again, it seems clear that my parenting isn't about needing to be 'boss'. I'm not interested in being 'the boss', I just carry the moral, social and legal responsibility for the kids. If I stop making sense to them they are allowed to question that and pull me up on it. I've been taught to do that to any senior officer in charge on the fireground if I feel my safety is being compromised - blind obedience is dangerous. For kids it's risky, and teaches them to override their instincts. I'm not interested in training my kids to be obedient adults, so why would I train them to be obedient kids?
I know, all my descriptions here sound like hard work and unachievable. When I first started reading about more effective, compassionate and conscious parenting I thought I wouldn't be able to get anywhere close. I prioritised it and have a really great dynamic with my kids. And I have a son who blew his kinder teacher away with his level of articulation for explaining concepts and situations. No kidding - she said she could never forget DS because of this, and because of how much he knew and could tell her about. He wasn't a teacher's pet, he was just easier to get along with because he went into kinder knowing he could share with the kids and teachers, and really cooperate for mutually agreeable outcomes. He's not 'gifted', I just have rarely underestimated him and his comprehension - and when I have it hasn't lasted long ;)
Try it - next time you catch yourself thinking "x won't understand, how do I give a kids' explanation?", try explaining some of the concepts behind the situation. If you don't know the answer, admit it and look it up - kids LOVE that because they learn something WITH you! I explained to DS, when he was nearly 3, what the Elvis Skycrane does and what it was doing the day there was a fire in Belgrave - he still rattles it off to all and sundry.
Explaining things to kids can also be confronting. You may be trying to explain why people do certain things, or why a certain rule exists and find that it makes very little sense and has very little relevance. You realise that if you explained it to an alien new to the planet they'd laugh at us. I admit these things to my kids. Like when DS asks me why I epilate my underarms and legs. I say that lots of people feel better when they don't have to look at someone else's underarm hair because that's how we've been trained to think about looking nice. I tell him that the hair grows there and is ok to be there and sometimes I get rid of it because it's expected of me, even though it's really a silly idea. It's fun helping him see through conventions and to question custom! It was even fun explaining Christmas, and why a lot of the songs he'd hear over Christmas would have words about a character called Jesus, also called Christ or the Messiah. I said some people believe he would save the world because they believe he is the one in an ancient prophecy. He said "Prophecy...like in the Dark Crystal?" - bingo! These kinds of connections don't just start happening - I've been teaching his brain to wrap around ideas since I knew he could understand more than he could speak.
Underestimate your children at your own, and their risk, is all I'm saying. They WILL surprise you :)

If underestimating my kids, being a "boss", blind obedience and long winded explanations is what coming across then I am bowing out as I'm not doing a very good job of explaining 123. People are always going to vary on how they parent, 123 works for us most of the time with our kids amazingly still having empathy, understanding why they are in time out and realising that just as in life there are consequences if your break basic rules. Peace out mamas.