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Just wondering. And this is pretty religion non specific. Do you believe that you will be held accountable for your actions after you have gone?
If so how? Karma in the next life? Hell?
Just curious, I know so many religions have so many different beliefs on this matter and I've always found it interesting.
I (we) don't - 'The wages sin pays is death' Romans 6:23. Then you have Acts 24:15 which says, in part, 'there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.'
So we believe in a resurrection that takes place after Armaggeddon, not an afterlife that happens as soon as someone dies. This comes from Ecclesiastes 9:5 - 'For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, for the rememberance of them has been forgotten.'
Enough scriptures for you? :) That's it in a nutshell, happy to discuss further though, as always!
Oh you have intrigued me again Keike! So, no afterlife at all?
As for me, I don't believe in retribution after death. I believe that your rebirth is on to a path where you have lessons still to be learned. So, your behaviour in this life reflects the lessons you have not learnt, or still need to learn, and thus you are destined to follow a path to learn them. It isn't about retribution, it is a learning curve, and some of us have learned different things to others. So if you are a jackass in this life, your next will be to teach you how not to be. How those lessons are taught, though, is another point entirely. ;)
My thoughts are the same as Lime you are reborn to learn the lessons you do not yet know
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I'd love to meet up with you one day Lime, I think we'd have a fascinating discussion :)
Nope, no afterlife for the majority of us. After Armaggeddon, there is the Resurrection. That is straight back to here on earth, not to Heaven or another planet or Hell or anything, just here. Only, here won't be as it is now, because after Armaggeddon the earth will be returned to its original, perfect state. So for the meantime, those dead are simply dead. Once they are resurrected, they have the chance to live forever as perfect humans on a perfect earth, serving Jehovah.
Having said that, if you wanna get deeper in, we do believe that some go to Heaven. That's from Revelation 14:1-3, again in part, 'And I saw, and look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty four thousand having his name ad the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.' So there are 144,000 who go to Heaven as soon as they die, to serve with Jesus as kings and priests.
As I said, that's getting pretty deep though, deeper than I think Rouge wanted to go in this thread :)
thats a really nice belief kieke, it would be nice to see the earth in its perfect state
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I'm looking forward to it :) That's how I imagine seeing my babies again, all these chubby little people running up to me in a beautiful paradise, and I never have to worry about them getting hurt or sick. When I'm at my lowest, I try and picture what it will be like, and it brings so much peace.
I love that idea certainly given me something to think about
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Thanks guys.
Limey, I think it's more about the lessons for me. I think they are very important. Especially for those that obviously can't learn in this life. I personally do not believe in hell as such, although sometimes I wish I did lol. But I do strongly believe the choices you make in this life lead to learning new lessons in the next. Possibly even hard lessons. I also like to think there is a spiritual plain that exists only to those who have learnt all their lessons and you won't make it there till then.
Keike, thank you for sharing. Is there a limit on numbers? I once read there was? If so how are you chosen?
No, I don't believe in afterlife, rebirth etc. You die, you're dead. I believe you reap what you sow, you will get the repercussions of your actions in this life and your choices will affect your family and those close to you when you are gone. They need to learn from your mistakes.
I believe when we die we either go to heaven or hell and where we go is not necesarilly how much we have sinned (although while alive I belive what you sew is what you reap) but based on your relationship with christ on earth and turning from your sins, in heaven we will be different positions based on your life and we will reunite worth family and friends lost on earth that made it to heaven and be praising God, then eventually the end of the world and we will be on new earth
Hell is a punishment but one of or own choosing, God doesn't want it anymore than we do so I'm wouldn't call it retribution but we have been given free will ti choose on earth
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Not for the ones resurrected to earth, 'After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands.' Revelation 7:9:
As for the 144,000 that go to heaven, Jehovah chooses them :)
The Quran says that hell does exist (which TBH cheers me up because I like the thought that Hitler gets a taste of his own medicine) but it also says that Allah's mercy is such that it will eventually be empty.
Does that mean that people can work their way out of hell, Onyx? Or that eventually Allah will take mercy on them, kinda like a prison sentence type thing?
No. You can't work your way out of hell but eventually Allah will take mercy on you. Even if you're Hitler and you murdered 10'000'000 innocent people.
I like the idea of the lessons thing.. I beleive we are held accountable.. but are given the chance to constantly learn and move forward. And also are given some leeway for not being too accountable, as we are kind of kept in the dark about things, and are kind of blindly fudging our way through life.. so there is some give and take.
I beleive in reincarnation, that we go through cycles and come back and forth (from where.. not sure on that yet...) between lives. I like to think that there can be some "time" spent between lives (in this place that I dont know what is called) to maybe learn things too... so you may die, and you may not have quite learned your lesson (coz if we all learned our lessons there wouldnt be horrible people out there and not everyone has dramatic life changing moments on their death bed where they confess all their mistakes and are suddenly a wonderful person) so there is some time in the "other place that I dont know what it is called" to have some redemption, some learning, some guidence before we enter again and take form in a life on earth. Sadly with no immediate memory of the "other place I dont know what is called" or excactly what happened there, but an essence is remembered.. and that is the path that we are set to follow for this life.. and so it goes. (Hence the blindly fudging our way.. if we could just remember and know exactly what our goals are.. it would be so much easier.. but maybe not as interesting!!!!)
There are a few flaws in my theory... the place that I dont know where it is or what it is or if it exsists is a big one.. lol and the idea that while people are learning all their lessons, why are people even now still awful people who surely havent learned anything (besides the whole no memory of the other place that i dont know what its called).. and why do really good people who seem to not have to learn anything have really horrible things happen to them???? I understand they may have to learn some things.. but it seems a bit uneven.. and I would like to think that some people out there who are horrible and in my opinion "deserve" some kind of "punishment" for the way they treat people get something, and on the same token, I like to think that the "good" people will in turn get some kind of reward. But I dont really know who desides who gets what, and when....
Off to ponder some more.....
i believe in the lessons to be learnt and if we dont learn them in this life we will be back again.
i also think that we are not always here for ourselves to learn things, but for others lessons instead. i believe we choose this before coming back each time.
As I was pondering more.... I was thinking just that.. sometimes what we do or see or face in life has repercussions for others to see and learn from. And strangely I started thinking of Hitler too... the idea that yes, what he did was wrong and horrible, but what if he isnt in a "hell" for someone to later have mercy on him.. what if he was being used a tool for others to learn from... a great big lesson for mankind to learn what NOT to do..... ????? Hmmmmmm... pondering......:
This is one of my favourite topics. I believe in reincarnation. Apparently early versions of the Bible included reincarnation, but they were edited out by Charlemagne. Obviously, I am not a Bible expert though, having never read anything other than a Children's Bible.
I've read a couple of great books, including Life between Lives by Michael Newton, and Many Masters, Many Lives by Brian Weiss. These two are both psychiatrist/psychotherapists who separately have used hypnosis to investigate life in the Afterlife. I read both books thinking oh yeah. A lot of it reconfirmed my own beliefs. A lot was new. The hypothesis is that all souls are reborn many times. The Creator or God creates us to incarnate on this or other worlds. We choose the life ahead of time, based on lessons we need to learn. We are then born but lose our memory of the Before life, in order to be able to express free will. The lessons we learn in our life help us to evolve as souls. Over many thousand of lifetimes, we evolve in to perfect souls until we no longer need to be reborn and merge with the Godhead.
Life between lives is like a community and school for souls. We evolve in groups of like souls. Our soul group is at a similar level of evolution. We have soulmates who we meet over and over in our lives. Some souls act as our guides in life. In some lives, as we evolve, we become guides to others. So your grandma, uncle or fabourite techer may not be part if your soul group, but they may be your soul teachers. After we die, we go through different levels depending on our soul evolution. Older souls go through fewer steps than new souls. We debrief with our guides and then meet with our soul group to go over the lessons in life.
Eventually, after a period of rest, we choose our next life with guidance from others. We are then born to parents we choose and the next life brings us opportunities to further evolve.
All this reinforced things I already believed on some level. I always knew or hoped I'd meet my soulmate. I was certain he would come from overseas, which he did. My biggest struggle with this is, did we choose to have two babies die? If so, what lesson are we supposed to learn and have we learnt it? It's something I've been talking with someone who is schooled in Buddhism about. Something about having agency in our choices. Obviously we didnt choose for our babies to die. I just need to understand it more on a spiritual level.
I suppose one reason I've always felt so sad about people who commit suicide. Not only is it a complete waste, with a whole heap of pain and suffering left for friends and family to live with, but also because I believe by taking a shortcut like that, it means that person will have to cone back and do it all over again next time and that next time it may be more difficult. It's that thought that has sustained me at times.
I don't see that the 2 things are mutually exclusive. In my reality we can learn and he can go to hell. I believe in a merciful God and I also believe that he is non-interventionalist so I find it very difficult to conceive of a reality in which millions of innocent people are killed in the most horrific ways just to help us learn a lesson. I can't reconcile that much cruelty with my view of a merciful God.:
I believe we have free will. Hitler made his choices through his free will. Those who followed him had free will. The only people without free will are the mentally incapacitated including the insane. One of the best books I've ever read was written by Victor Frankl, a psychotherapist who survived Auswitz, called Man's Search for Meaning. One of the most profound passages are about how, when a person is naked and starving, when all their friends and family have been murdered, no matter what happens to them, in the end they have free will. Whatever happens in life, the meaning that a person subscibes to that event is what matters.
Nelson Mandela was incarcerated for 27 years. He was tortured and abused. Yet he choose the meaning of that suffering for him.
As to retribution. I believe a soul who commits evil in a life will review that life in the Afterlife. They may need time apart for cleansing or something. Then, at some stage, they will choose to be reborn into a life or lives where they will balance out their actions. Not as punishment but as a lesson, as part of their evolution. This will involve suffering until they learn to ivercome suffering. Maybe this is part of God's mercy. Not hell, but a chance to pay back for previous mistakes.
I resonate with Lime and Lions and bears on this... I don't believe in God as such but a higher energy, group conciousness, source, what have you...we are all like little Gods (I will use the term as its probably easiest to get) who will eventually evolve into a higher state and re join the main GOd (does that even make sense?) lol
So no retribution in the afterlife as there is no "after life " as such, we are all on a "journey" (I hate that term but it fits here) of personal enlightenment...