At what point would you intervene, if at all.

Hey guys

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question. I don't want a debate. I witnessed some extreme, um, 'disciplining' on the weekend. I didn't say anything to the parents as frankly it's none of my business. But after discussing with DH and a friend, we all thought when do you say something and how do you say it? We came to the conclusion that you leave it a few days, ring the parents up and gently ask if everythings ok, are they stressed out, do they need someone to babysit so they can have a day alone etc. Approaching someone in the midst of it is just going to insult them and they'll probably lash out in defense. But then on the other hand when a kid's been practically beaten... what the hell do you do?!

I was at church and sat in a row with a young family, with 2 seats between the dad and myself. The 2 children aged about 2 & half and 8 months were quietly playing on a rug at their feet. They were not bothering me at all (only other person in the row) and I personally thought they were really well behaved, they weren't making any noise. Of course they started encroaching some extra space and ended up at my feet with the baby cooing at me, but they're kids. As long as they're not kicking me or whatever I don't care what they do.

Everytime they so as much moved their fingers off the rug they were on, the dad would pick up a heavy book and smash it over their heads :o of course they started screaming and he would then put his hand on their head and push them so they were laying down. Then he'd take them out to stop the cyring, and when he brought them back in they'd climb onto their mothers lap, latch onto her and give the dad scared looks. This went on for an hour. Both kids had red marks up their arms from where he'd grab them and yank them into place.

It didn't look as though as he was at his wits end and stressed out or anything, he was calm when he did it as though he done it everyday. Yes, I was judging. I don't know them or their circumstances, but it seemed extreme - the kids weren't even misbehaving.

Sounds well over the top to me and from your description it sounds like they were being pretty well behaved little munchkins. I think there are tons of times where you can see parents perhaps being harsher than you think necessary but you don't know what's come before it - little Johnny could have been an utter toad all day and that one final act pushed mum/dad's patience over the edge. But hitting what are effectively babies and physically dragging them around is never acceptable. I would have said something there and then, but then I frequently open my mouth before my brain engages. If it was at church, could you maybe raise it with the priest/pastor?

I'd have said something to them, even if it was a simple "it's okay, I don't mind them coming near me" - and if it continued, I would eventually say some incredibly not-nice things to them :angry:

Based on your description I do think hitting kids over the head with a book is taking it too far. In this case, if I knew the mother I would talk to her and definitely mention it to the father/pastor. Maybe the pastor/father (whoever is head of the church) might be able to reassure the dad that the kids aren't doing any harm as long as they stay in their row :dunno:


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I would bring it up with the Pastor of the church, you did so well not to say anything, I would have been biting my tongue.

Regards,
Dianne

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I think there are tons of times where you can see parents perhaps being harsher than you think necessary but you don't know what's come before it - little Johnny could have been an utter toad all day and that one final act pushed mum/dad's patience over the edge.

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This is exactly why I didn't say anything. But I was still :o

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I'd have said something to them, even if it was a simple "it's okay, I don't mind them coming near me"

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Did this, several times. I was smiling at the kids, half playing with them, told the parents they're really well behaved kids.

I think I might bring it up with someone else. I know they have a play room for kids that are noisier, but for the most part the congregation are a pretty clucky bunch and happy with the kids just playing on the rugs. The only announcement they've made about babies/kids is that if they're crying/screaming to please take them out.

Um ... hitting them over the heads with books? And you didn't say anything? Not sure I would say that was "well done".
Damn right I would say something. I would have taken that book off him so quick it would make your head spin, and he would have been damn lucky if I didn't call the police.

er. wow. hitting kids over the head with a book is not cool.

I think hitting the children on the head with books etc is not acceptable, regardless of what they were/weren't doing. Poor kids. The fact that dad felt it was totally acceptable to do this in front of strangers and at Church suggests that he sees no wrong in doing so. What's scarier to wonder is what would he do at home behind closed doors?
Did the mum tell dad off at all?
I think a comment to let him know that he didn't need to hit the kids would have been warranted. If the dad hears from other people that they don't think his behaviour is socially acceptable, then he may be forced to think about it. If everybody just turns a blind eye, then he's getting the message that what he's doing is ok. It's a hard one, b/c you obviously don't want to get involved in conflict (or get hit over the head with a book, yourself!).

I don't think that even if the babies had been toads all day that that is any excuse for the father to be hitting them over the head with hard books and for dragging them around. If he will do that to his babies with people around I shudder to imagine what he would do in private. I would have said something and I would have gone to the church head afterwards as well.

Sure, I agree with that if you're in the supermarket and Mum speaks too harshly or maybe grabs her LO and dumps him/her in the trolley because he/she won't stop grabbing things, but what I was trying to say is that even though that can sometimes be the situation, there is no way what was going on was acceptable - (A) because of the age of the children involved and (B) because hitting a child with something is just never acceptable IMO.

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not for a second condoning what happened at all - no previous behaviour from the kids would have made his actions acceptable and I most definitely would have said something to him. A parent at my DD's kindy last year "picked up" his maybe 2 year old son by the upper arm and walked across the room with him like that. I said something - much to the amazement of everyone around me and the I'm sure disgust of his little group of chatty parents - but geez, that's child abuse as far as I'm concerned.

I can't say I think the actions of this man in any way reflect a christian attitude towards his own children. I can only wonder at people who are essentially violent but feel they are christians because they attend a room called a church.
Did anyone else in the congregation see any of this happening? I would have felt it was my christian duty to talk to these parents and help them do a better job with their children.
This is child abuse. It should be reported. If you saw this happening in a child care setting or regularly in a play group or another parents home you would report it. Why is it OK because it happened in church?

Omg that is disgusting, I don't think I would have been able to hold my tongue. This seems very different to say, seeing a mum or dad at the end of their patience for the day and giving the kid a smack or something.....seems like its his choice of discipline. Was he hitting the baby too? Mind u when it comes to discipline a 2 year old is like a baby too :(

Defintely no reason at all to hit a child over the head, especially with an object! I would have said something. I understand why you didn't but IMO no matter how badly behaved a child has been there is NO excuse to ever hit a child on the head.

A simple calm "no, no back on the rug" would have more appropriate but the way you described they were well behaved so the way the father reacted was very uncalled for. So what if before church they were acting up, children don't remember what they've done previously and wouldn't understand why daddy hit them.

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Did anyone else in the congregation see any of this happening? I would have felt it was my christian duty to talk to these parents and help them do a better job with their children.
This is child abuse. It should be reported. If you saw this happening in a child care setting or regularly in a play group or another parents home you would report it. Why is it OK because it happened in church?

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Some others possibly saw, but I was right next to it. It's not ok because it happened in a church, it's not ok at all. I don't think I'd report it but given I don't have children of my own I feel awkward and out of place saying something. I know my dad has given firm talking to's to other people who have done similar. But given he is a 50+ year old man who's raised kids he probably has a lot more constructive things to say other than my awkward stutters.

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Omg that is disgusting, I don't think I would have been able to hold my tongue. This seems very different to say, seeing a mum or dad at the end of their patience for the day and giving the kid a smack or something.....seems like its his choice of discipline. Was he hitting the baby too? Mind u when it comes to discipline a 2 year old is like a baby too :(

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Yep that's my point, it seemed like normal disciplining methods. It was a struggle not to say something, I think if he'd have looked at my face it would have said enough. It scares me what he might do in the privacy of his home :shakehead:

I might speak to someone of authority at church, I feel uncomfortable mentioning names but he/she might know who I'm talking about... surely everybody else has witnessed it! Too bad the first person that comes to mind for talking to about this is the guys MIL!

i tend to shoot from the hip so i'd have said something and maybe snached the book too and loudly asked what kind of christian moral coade is the man reading from because its one that needs to be re-written.

i too shudder to think how he acts at home towards the children behind closed doors :-/

I think it's even less acceptable because it was in a Christian church! I think of Jesus telling his disciples not to keep the little children away from him. I can only imagine his reaction if someone was hitting them with books!

I think this father is completely missing the point of disciplining with love. Maybe he needs some help to add some more positive and loving methods to his parenting toolbox.

Just as an aside... it disturbs me thinking about what "heavy book" one would find in a Church... only 2 spring to mind and neither I would think, should be disrespected by being used to abuse a child.

Limeslice it was a children's book (not heavy like an old bible). A4 size and about 3/4 inch thick. Nonetheless, it was a book :|

I'm almost shaking reading this.

I would have said something.

Why do we say nothing? Please don't think I'm having a go at you here, but we really need to drop the mentality of not causing embarrassment by biting our tongues. Not ok. Turning a blind eye never helped anyone. Ever.

Would I have gone troppo? Absolutely not. I probably would have grabbed the book mid air and said hey, we're in church they are just as welcome as we are. Then I probably would have went to the leader of the church and talked about getting some help for them. Not to shame them but to help them. People don't openly parent their kids this way because they are monsters. It's because they don't have the tools. And yes some people are naive. But I have seen people like this grow and change with a little kindness and education. Saying nothing and flying off your handle at ignorance are equally as unhelpful.

Always do something. Just be wise about it.

Oh my gosh. I could not have stopped myself from taking the book and telling him I thought it inappropriate if I saw that.

I agree that there are times when a parent has been pushed to the limit and is rougher with their child than usual. You can usually tell that it's not an ongoing, normal thing. But this? To calmly and repeatedly beat babies on the head with a book and drag them around when they understandably scream and cry? Child abuse imo.

In situations like this, I think it needs to be stopped. Those babies can't stand up for themselves, their father is beating them and seems to think it's ok and normal. The mother apparently does nothing about it. If someone doesn't stand up for them, who will? Just because it's other people's right to parent how they like and they're not all as gentle as me, I think this goes way too far and I could not just dismiss it as "His child, his right to discipline (beat) how he sees fit".

Sure, maybe you don't want to have a fit right there and it's probably not a good idea to have a go at him, but stopping it calmly and letting him know it's not on might have worked, and I think you're right in going to someone within the congregation for help for them. Maybe he just needs to be shown that there are other ways? And that it's perfectly normal for a child not to stay exactly on a rug at that age? Maybe his expectations of them are to high.

Actually you should have been in the PERFECT place to have a go at this immoral man who thinks this is OK. In a truly supportive christian church community you would have had the support and back-up of the whole congregation. In a good church you would also find there would be several men who are also fathers who would support this poor man to improve his skills and who would reduce his embarressment by handling the situation with him in an appropriately masculine but caring way for both the parents and the children.
I can't believe this abusive behaviour was not seen by others. Sure they didn't see him hit the little babies but he must have been seen when he dragged them out when they were crying.
Possibly he is being "forced" to go to church and this is part of his trying to avoid attending.........a host of things would be happening behind the scenes for this to be what is seen in public.
Why ON EARTH would you not tell your pastoral team the name of the man..........are you scared of the impact on you?
They need the full information to protect those poor little kids and probably their silent mum too!

Wow, that is awful.

Definitely tell someone.

And I would be sitting next to them again next time and saying something if it happened again.

Can there be a trigger warning on this thread please?

I agree with the other poster who said about if it was in a play group/childcare setting. I know educators/medical practioners have mandatory reporting, but I'm not sure about others.

If it were me, I would definitely talk to the pastor/priest/minister of the church. He/she may know the family and their circumstance. I would also keep an eye on them.

May be a bit over the top, but I remember reading about this case in brisbane called Baby Brennan. The child was reported after being admitted to hospital, but the mother took her home and the child passed away from subsequent injuries from the mothers BF. I just wonder if more people had reported these people, it may not have got to that stage.

Maybe these parents are good people and don't usually mistreat their children, but it really should be monitored. Even though you are not a parent, you still have a duty at a concerned citizen..

Hope this helps!

I agree that something needs to be said. I don't think it's at all the kind of thing you can walk away from altogether. But I don't know if saying something right then & there to this man, not just in public but in church, would really be constructive. From the viewpoint of helping the kids, the family unit, i think it would be better off to approach the pastor. Presumably he holds a position of respect & authority with this man and (hopefully) would have some influence.
Or maybe you could take him aside after church and have a word? How about his wife? Could you gauge how she felt about his actions? I'd be curious to know if she supported this type of 'discipline'.
If I saw it happening again... I'd probably be calling DOCS. I don't know if that's OTT or not... but surely so is hitting a child on the head with a book.

I would definitely take action. It is our responsibility as a community to protect children.

Yes, perhaps speak to the pastor - depending on his/her interpretation of the Bible s/he may view this type of discipline as acceptable.

I would call DOCS, at least for some advice on how to proceed. I'm saying this coming from a background working in child protection. As others have said, worse behaviour may be going on behind closed doors. The kids' reactions also seems concerning.

I'd ask yourself - would you feel worse 'doing' something and finding out that there was no abuse going on or doing nothing and realising the kids were being abused?

I feel it is always better to er on the side of caution when it comes to protecting our precious children.

All the best - it's a tricky situation!