In desperate need for help parenting DD

i am typing this through tears because I am so ashamed of smacking my DD this morning and finally acknowledging that she has completely and utterly broken me down and I have absolutely no idea where to go to from here.
DD is 5 years old and is a very very strong willed, stubborn and detemined young lady. Once this little girl has decided that she is or isn't going to do something then that's it - this is the very same thing that I love most about her and what I dislike the most as well. I know that she isn't going to be walked over in life and I can just see that this amazing strong will and determination is going to help do amazing things BUT at the moment I am completely and utterly lost how to parent her.
The last 48 hours have been absolutely horrific and I am in desperate need of help as I feel I have absolutely no control. DD will not listen or do anything I ask her, even something as simple as please come here. Anything and everything we ask her she says no and we can't not get her to do it. Last night she hit her brother, we asked her to apologise, she said no, I asked her to go to time out (sit in the hallway) she said no and so it started. DD has complete and utter break downs where we can not get her to calm down or stop grunting/screaming at us.
- She will not sit in time out
- Will not go to timeout
- will not pick up her toys
- will not sit at the table for any meal
- will not come if I call her
- will not stop running away (she ran infront of a car the other day and nearly got hit)
- will not go to bed
- I can not get her to do a single thing regardless of what it is.

I have tried time out & sitting there holding her but she throws herself around, kicking, screaming & hitting. I've had a few blood noses/split lips from this.
We have tried
- reward charts
- attachment/positive parents as in complimenting every single thing she does right/praise
- magic 1-2-3
- time outs
- deprieving out of outings
- removed all her toys and letting her pick a toy to get back for everytime she did something nice or listened
- ignoring the behaviours
- complimenting DS (3 years old) on all of his positive behaviours
- spending time with her one on one and also as a family letting them pick the activities.

We have stripped her diet as well.

I am completely lost and to be honest so broken down that I am about to give up. This beyond control behaviour has started out of nowhere. We have asked her what is wrong/why is she behaving like this and she tells us becasue she wants too. We can't think of anything that has happened to cause this behaviour.

I have posted about her bad side but the other DD that comes out sometimes is absolutley amazing. She is so loving, helpful, enjoyable and so amazing to be around. Sadly this little girl is not around much at the moment.

It breaks my heart because this is my little princess and I lay in bed in the morning not wanting to get up because I have no idea what DD I am going to have today.

Does anyone have any suggestions/techniques I can try?

i have found some good techniques in the book 'raising your spirited child'. Highly recommend it

i have no advice but couldn't read and not post :hug: i can feel the utter despair in your post. I'm sure someone will have some advice/guidance for you :hug:

could it possibility be ODD(Oppositional Defiance Disorder)?




Sent using my SamGal ;)

You have just described my DS perfectly. Although he is a bit younger. I don't have any advice because I'm really struggling with it at the moment too. But you are not alone. :hug:

((hugs)) hun, sounds an awful lot like my DD atm. I am hoping it is just an age thing (DD is also 5 yo) but deep down I know it is her personality - she is exactly like my sister. We also get her putting her hands over her ears so she can't listen to what we are saying to her - frustrating as hell & my DH is at his wits end & ends up screaming at her.... time out is a nightmare as she just gets up and runs around the house away from us..... I have no advice but wanted to let you know that you are not alone. I think I'll look into HotI's suggestion though and google Negs suggestion. If I find any technique that works for our DD I will be sure to pass it on

I also have no advice but just want to send you some :hug: :hug:

You're right - it's so often the characteristics that we love and will love about our kids that drive us the most crazy.

My friend has a daughter the same age who sounds very similar to your DD. I know for them she got alot better when she started preschool, although I know it can go the other way for a lot of kids.

Is she at school/preschool? What does her teacher say about how she behaves there?

:comfort: I have no advice lovely but hope someone else can help you (us). Just wanted to send you enormous hugs and tell you that I is doing exactly the same sort of thing at the moment. We went to the zoo on Tuesday and oh my goodness she was an absolute monster with tantrums, running off etc - all stuff that she has never, ever done before. I think the biggest thing for me is the incredible speed from which she flips from the gorgeous, happy girl I know to this new character that in all honesty I don't want to know. Hopefully its just a stage for our at the moment not so precious girls. The problem is that I think we have raised some independent, strong minded little girls that when they reach these stages its pure hell. I've tried everything you have with no luck. I had a moment a week or two ago when she and I had a nice time together and it broke my heart when I realised it was the first "soft" moment that we had had in who knows how long.

I hear you on the feeling lost as to what to do. The other day I had A in one arm and had to grab hold of I's collar with the other hand because I didn't trust myself not to do something with that hand if it wasn't occupied. I'm told locking them outside in the dog kennel isn't an ok thing to do, but I'm running out of options :shakehead:

Hugs hun. Do you have a local health service where there might be a psychologist or social worker you could go and talk to? When I did 123 Magic (the course) it was run at our local community health centre by a social worker who you can also go and see for one on one visits. She really knew her stuff and I won't hesitate to go and see her in the future if we need it. I'm in NSW so I'm not sure how other states work with community health centres. You could try your GP to find out what services are out there?

Hang in there...

:hug:
Just a few ideas to throw at you:

what do you *need* her to do? Anything beyond that, I'd let go. She obviously wants to fight about it, so I'd just not go there. Sometimes I get caught up in making DS do things because I want him to do as I say, instead of taking a step back and thinking about whether it really matters anyway.

Try time in together, rather than time out.

You've mentioned one-on-one time with you already, I know. That one makes a big difference when my son when I can manage it.

Diet and tv time make a difference to my son's behaviour, too.

Get some time out for yourself :hug:

:hug:s hun.

I was thinking along the same lines as susprised - it might be time to talk to a professional about what's going on and how to deal with it. I'd start with either the GP or CHN and ask what services the council offer. I know ours offers parenting courses but you might even need something more than that - you might need some one on one time, as opposed to a group parenting course thing.

You could also look into her "love language" - figure out her currency and try to work with that? Have you heard about love languages? There's a book called "5 love languages for children". Might help.

My DD is only 3.5 and I am getting really concerned about how she is going to be when she gets older - she is 3.5 with the attitude sometimes of a teenager. Last night I told her to be sensible, while we were at Nanna and Pop's house, she was carrying on getting silly, I said "DD, be sensible please" and the reply I got was "No, YOU be sensible". She has tried that before, so I called her over, got down at her level, asked her to look at me and said "That is NOT how you speak to mummy. You need to speak nicely to mummy. Smarten up and drop the attitude." and she turned away and said "YOU drop the attitude" :o

I was gobsmacked. I called her back and again said "That is NOT how you speak to mummy. This is your last chance - speak nicely to mummy or you will miss out on dessert (my mum had made a chocolate mousse, which DD had helped with) and you will go to the thinking spot. Smarten up." Her response? "No mummy, YOU smarten up."

:wall:

No dessert, thinking spot, but I after I'd put her into the thinking spot, went back to the kitchen and my mum says "Where did that come from?" and I have no idea. I was horrified. Where is this attitude coming from? And if this is what she is like now, God help us in the future.

:hug:

Oh hun I have no other advice that hasn't already been said but couldn't read and not post :hug:

Some awesome advice hun and I have none other than to me it sounds like time to get some advice from others like MCHN etc. :hug: So sorry I don't have any advice but know I am here, on BB and FB if you ever need to vent/chat/cry/scream etc xoxoxxo

I am about to post the exact same thread. :( I even rang ex DH in tears just now to be told "I told you so", because I spent 10 minutes being hit and having things thrown at me.
Obviously I have no advice, just wanted to send some love and let you know there are others dealing with these issues. I am at the end of my positive parenting tether and have tried everything you have with totally zero results.
I hope you can find some answers and move forward. xx :hug:

Thank you all for your support :grouphug: DH & I are going to sit down tonight & have a chat. These kids of ours sure know how to push our buttons.

Sending massive hugs to all the other mums going through this too.

I could have written your OP word for word.

My DD 3.5 is exactly the same. Perhaps even more so.

She drives me to tears and beyond but is also the most lovable little rascal at times.

I don't think she has ODD and I would be wary of seeking medical advice and going down that path.
There isn't anything 'wrong' with my DD. I don't want to break her or make her bend to my will because it would be easier for me (some days I would love to, though I wonder if I would ever win!). So I don't have any answers for you there.

I go by the mantra and pray "this too shall pass" and when she is CEO of some multi-national corporation she will one day be bossing someone other than me around!

I don't know whether this is helpful either, but another thing that sometimes helps is breaking the mood by saying or doing something really ridiculous. Oh, and my MIL got good results by 'racing' DS to do things. :dunno:

We're on day 2 of no tv - have been using the crutch a lot in recent months - and things were better today. It's pretty ****, though, when you're feeling lost and overwhelmed.

Our boys are very like this and if we spend alot if time stuck inside it gets worse.
Im looking into the benefits of fish oil atm.
We have rules and at the moment i ask them over breakfast, what are our inside rules? When we go out- what are our outside rules? and i have a harness and a wrist strap i can use if they try run off etc.
We will continue to stop outings, loose toys etc but i also try when they are really being monkey to change it to a positive. I will leave the room and collect myself, then put some music on and call out- who wants to earn a treat? then together we do something different like in summer wash windows, in winter redo the linen cupboard. Anything not normal that they can get a reward for. Or an extra star on the star chart. We use weekly charts. Eating, shower,sleeping and school mus be done with minimal fuss. Manners and listening and helpfulness. And any hobbies/ pet stuff.
It helps them to know what days are good or not and it often surprises us who got more that week.
Hugs its really hard but you guys aren't alone

Sent from my Galaxy with the barefoot princess covering me in kisses, so please forgive the mistakes

If it wasn't for DD2, I would have long periods where I thought I was an absolutely hopeless parent because DD1 is just so challenging in many of the ways that you've described.

My friend and I used to say, "if they will sit in time out, they're not that naughty in the first place."

It sounds like you've tried virtually everything and I think that seeking professional advice is a good idea. In the meantime, what helps me with DD1 is to spend lots of one-on-one time with her. This can get tricky as DP is not here in the evenings and DD2 goes to bed very late. Nevertheless, we had "special movie night" the other night which after DD2 went to bed didn't start till 9pm and because it involved a bath with mum, blowdrying hair before the movie even started ... didn't finish till midnight. But you do what you have to do.

If you find the answer, tell me because DD1 can be a real handful at times. DD2, on the other hand, with much slacker parenting is an angel (apart from bedtime).

I couldn't read all this and not reply.
Some of the described behaviours do sound like ODD but not entirely.
I come from a teaching/behaviour management background but it does not mean I have any or all the answers.
I might however have some suggestions you could try. Keep in mind in high level behaviour management classrooms we still have to trial things with kids now and then 'cause we get one who throws us a curveball.
If anyone is interested here are some things I'd like to suggest that might help. They might also be too much work to be worth trying.
One thing that seems really silly but is infinately useful is to monitor and record behaviour for a short period (about a week). Just look at it and keep a record. You might make a chart to put on the fridge and invent a quick recording method like #yelled at mum !refused a request *acted inappropriately etc. Then just make a chart and put the little symbols in for each hour so the chart would have space for Monday ruled up in hour times and then Tuesday and so on

This seems totally useless but here's the kicker. It is amazing how this highlights when behaviours happen and perhaps what happenings in the day cause them. For some kids it's because they are hungry/thirsty (ie a certain behaviour just before a mealtime) which is easy to fix, for others before or after a drive in the car or before a "friend" comes over or is leaving etc. For some kids you ralise it's just after the TV is switched off or just prior to your usual "quiet" time and you might just need to move that forward 15 mins.
This then leaves you armed (and more prepared) to tackle changes that can pre-empt the behaviour.
The other positive is that it gives you something to do instead of react immediately and it gives you a talking point with the kid at the end of the day (or with little ones halfway through the day).

The next thing is to prepare the kid for the day.
Tell them in the morning how the day will look (including how you both might feel).
IE We have to go to do the gorcery shop and then we'll get a treat at the shops. I am looking forward to that. When we get home we'll have to put the groceries away which I hate doing but if you can help there might be time to play outside after.
The other job we need to get done is to clean the bathroom. I hate cleaning the bathroom but I will do it. Maybe while I do that you can play with X toy or read Y book.
and so on. Let them have some input as to how they might feel and what thy'd like to do. Discuss ideas.

Good luck. So much of what's happening is trial and error and just when you get a handle on certain things the little people decide they need to change their responses!
Hang in there

Just to add to kateo's reply which has some awesome suggestions that I am going to use as well!! If you make up a little calendar you can laminate different things like a clip art for kinder, shopping, etc. and then go through each day and make a little timetable it might help. Iz always needs to know what we are doing on any given day, kids just love routine and having a rhythm for their day as it gives them security about what is happening. Some need more than others. xoxox

another one in this club.. DD has just turned 3 and i simply cannot parent her.. knows how to go to the toilet but wont.. broker her bed jumping on it after being told countless times not too. i love her but i simply and unable to parent her at times.. am not sure what to do she has good times but mostly she is very stressful for me. I love her so much but at times i do not know if i like her some days..

am so thankful i found this thread..

How are things going Liviam? did you and your DH have a chat? :hug:



Sent using my SamGal ;)

Hugs darl :hug:
As you know I'm aging issues with DD2 as well, I've gone back and started to read 1-2-3 magic again which means we're doing it correctly again (easy to slacken off and do incorrectly), it is working, if I want her to stop doing something it's 1-2-3 then timeout, if I want her to start doing something for me it's 5-4-3-2-1 if she doesn't then she looses a marble....a glass full = reward (movie etc...), maybe rent the DVD from the library, much quicker obviously than reading the book.
:grouphug:

Thanks ladies. I am currently tracking down a copy of "raising a spirited child" and I might have to re-read 1 2 3 Magic.
Yesterday she was as firery as she has been but at least I didn't have her doing a complete and utter breakdowns - maybe progress?
DH & I did chat and we are going to perserve with putting her in her room if she is having a complete meltdown and we are also going to do more one on one time on the weekends (especially now that DS2 is older and isn't so dependant on me).
It is so reassuring to read that other kids have similiar behaviours (feel so bad for their mums though) and maybe I haven't completely and utterly stuffed her up.

What devestates me is that we had a school interview for her ad she was so incredibly well behaved, beautiful manners and simply a delight - why do I have such a shocker of a time at home with her?

DD1 here sounds a bit like some of the other kids. VERY independant, VERY stubborn, VERY strong willed and attitudy, coming back at me with "whatever" or "you've already told me x times, you don't need to tell me again". I too have days where I think "who is this child and where did she come from?".
Things that I have found worked for me....
- During complete meltdowns, putting her into her bedroom until she has calmed down. I go in and check on her but it could go for an hour+ sometimes. This came about from finding that "time out" or the "thinking spot" don't work for her.
- I use the "first to finish" game sometimes too. E.g - First to finish picking up the toys can have a stamp. I tend not to use a chart as such because she forgets I just give stamps on the hand - immediate reward.
- Lately we have had problems with cleaning up. I talk to the girls ALLOT about families and how we have to help each other. DD2 (although not that much younger) now says we have to help because we are a family. DD1 doesn't always agree - so she doesn't get the stamp but DD2 will.
- I use praise for all the good things and tell her how proud I am when she does something I like.
- Consequences - toys get taken away, no dessert, no treats eg cooking with me, or shopping with me. Obviously depending upon the inital problem.
- I always emphasis that she is my "helper" and I need her to "help me" teach her sister how to do things right ie. sleeping in your own bed, putting the toys away etc.

In our house the girls only really have 3 things that I want them to do - clean the toys up in the lounge room, clean the toys up in the bedroom and stack the shoes on the rack at the end of each day. Anything else, I try to involve them in eg, putting the clothes away, unpacking the dishwasher etc. But if they don't want to do it then I don't force it. As they get older i'm hoping that they will be involved more, guess i'll see what happens.

Big hugs to everyone who has spirited children. They are a huge challenge - it seems like the country will be in safe hands if all these children become CEO's etc :)

Liviam, in regards to school, is it that school will be a new challenge both mentally and emotionally for her? Is she at CC now? Is she getting bored and needs more stimulation?

Can I also add that I remember DD1 being very emotional towards the end of last year (4 yr old kinder) and her teacher sad it was VERY common to have issues, they have so much going on etc.....

I've ended up going to see a psychologist recently to help me deal with my reactions to my DS1 (4) and DS2 (2). In my case, it's DS2 who puts me through the ropes. While he can be gorgeous, more often than not he seems to wake in a bad mood and stays that way most of the day. He also has a short temper and gets very agitated and destructive when he's cranky about whatever. DS1 is more testing his boundaries - not always listening etc, but on the whole he's a hell of a lot more easy going than DS2. But some days they can be a combined cyclone on my emotions and patience. I've always acknowledged that their behaviour is relatively age appropriate, but DS2 is very, very strong willed and can be really hard to deal with. Being pg hasn't helped me in regard to my reaction to them. Like you, I've tried time out plus other methods - diverting attention, rewards and praise and 1, 2, 3. Sometimes if works for me/us, other times it doesn't.

In my case, I've read the books ... I understand about positive/negative attention and the general "tricks of the trade" in terms of how to deal with toddlers/pre-schoolers ... but "knowing" what to do and actually "doing" it are two different things. Well, in my book anyway. So in order to amp up my parenting skills and to try and help DS2 deal with his temper, I've ended up going to a psychologist. Only two sessions in, so it's early days but the psych has had some really good advice so far. Plus it's an opportunity to debrief to someone completely removed from our family. I don't know that I ever sucked completely as a mum, but I knew I had to find a way to deal with my kids' behaviour better - more calmly and patiently. I love my kids to death and want the best for them. Plus I didn't want my reactions to guide the way they react to things. For me it was time to hook in and do something. I'm so, so, so glad I've taken steps to improve myself as a parent.

Good luck - I really hope you find things turnaround soon xx

Massive :hugs: to you. It sounds very difficult right now.

Some titles I've found helpful

Unconditional Parenting - Alfie Kohn (also comes as a DVD talk)
Fingerpainting in Psych class - Jay Morgan (this is pretty full on with the positive praise and reinforcement but has some good info too)
Playful Parenting - Lawrence Cohen (haven't actually read this but it looks good and is on my bedside table)

There are also a lot of parenting facebook pages that are research based, linked to blogs, run by experts etc. If you are interested, PM me. They post interesting articles, ideas and blogs in my feed and I find it helps me to remain calm or to get some new ideas or a new perspective on an old behaviour.

i'm glad to have found this thread too. With us, the defiance is predominantly related to not eating. Which has ground me down so much, i DREAD mealtimes now. (she won't eat at school either, even for her teacher whom she adores, and with all her classmates eating).

Gigi my DD loves on air I swear. She will eat properly maybe one day a week & that's it. The other days she just snacks. Figure she has stocked up on the one day she has eaten. I've given up on the meal time fight - gonna to tackle that one later.

I'm going to go crazy left field here. But what are her vitamin levels like? I had a gf who's little one was going through very similar issues, she had blood tests and was pretty deficient in everything. Started her on some vitamins and her appetite returned and her behaviour improved as a result. Sometimes these things go hand in hand. Might be worth a check.

Ds2 a picky eater and its a control thing for him too. I find pro-biotics help with appetite and a multi vitamin in general.



Sent from my Galaxy with the barefoot princess covering me in kisses, so please forgive the mistakes

Rogue that is another great suggestion! Would never have thought of that. Thanks for the suggestion. Will add that to my list of things to talk to gp/health nurse about

It's funny you mention that rouge because I've had the same thoughts about DD2 and have a dr's appointment tuesday to discuss potential lack of vitamins (though she eats pretty well)

And she's off again :cry:

:hug: babe, can you totally distract her from whatever the behaviour is right now and get her to help you get dinner ready, or sit and do a puzzle together or something just for 15 mins. Just a total distraction away from what you don't want her to do?? I am having trouble with J and today I found I was able to diffuse him by getting him to help me with making porridge and by the time we were done he was distracted from whatever it was that he was crying about. Hope you find something that works hun - so hard oxxoo

Liviam the fail safe diet is great for this behaviour!

You need a diary to mark good and bad days. When it's a negative cycle it's hard to remember that every day isn't horrid.

Keep positive, don't take it personally.

:hug: gorgeous. I hope she's calmed down by now.