Does it get better? Dog with fear aggression

*Please be kind when replying. I am deeply distressed*

We adopted a beautiful ACD x 2.5 months ago. He's adorable and has a loving, funny nature. He's 2-3 years old. All we know about his background was that he was surrendered to a pound by his female owner, who placed him in the overnight cage. Her boyfriend came to see him but didn't get him out, even though he was due to be euthanised, as per the pound policy (they only hold them for 8 days). Apparently, the girlfriend was a drug user, so from this, I have tried to extrapolate why she gave him up - economic reasons, landlord issues, whatever. He was desexed when he was surrendered, so i assume someone at sometime cared enough to look after him. I do believe he was loved and most likely not abused.

However, he was not socialised at all. When he went into foster care, he was surprised by puddles and logs. The big, wide world is a strange place for him, filled with strange people and strange dogs. We thought he was doing really well. We took him to an off lead park where he'd play with other dogs, running around like a mad thing. He doesn't really have any manners, so has had to be put in his place by other dogs a few times when he gets in their face. Noone was hurt and he is generally submissive, rolling on his back, licking faces, etc.

Every now and again, he'll meet a dog, usually male, who he dislikes on sight. I've been stupid and had him off lead when he's had a go, or both dogs have had a go at each other. My bad not being able to get him back once he's off after another dog. We've been working with a dog trainer and have pulled back on his off lead play time until we have better control over him. In addition, sometimes he'll growl at people. We think he may not like the way they walk. I suspect a lot of the problem is me - he must be sensing me tense up as someone walks towards us as i find him unpredictable.

The dog trainer we were using recommended using a check collar and treats, so I'd walk him, giving him treats as he walked nicely and to distract him from joggers, other dogs, cats or whatever. However, once he fixes on something, nothing stops him. He'll flip himself in the air on the end of the check chain, so that's useless. I also have a problem with the use of them as i think it causes him pain and increases his frustration. It got so bad, we thought we'd have to give him back to the rescue organisation, as he obviously needs stronger people than us - I mean that in a leadership type way. We've also had people tell us to put him down :(

I absolutely adore him though. He's a very beautiful dog when he feels safe. I realise I am probably a lot of the problem by not being assertive enough. I am probably projecting my maternal needs on him. We are starting with a new dog training organisation this week. They use a head halter and walking dogs around in circles for correction and praise only for positive reinforcement, rather than food. I am happier with this method, as I feel the food rewards are limiting, especially if I run out of treats just before another dog appears on a walk. We are willing to give this a good go, as he is part of our family and it would break my heart to lose him.

I know he will never be "cured". He missed the key socialisation points in his youth. I just think I'm looking for stories of hope.


ETA Dec 2012 - we've had an enormous improvement in behaviour. We're so thrilled and really enjoying life with our pooch :)
Training makes a huge difference, in both dog and people.

I had a dog that sounds similar in some ways. Never abused or neglected as we got him as a puppy, but he had serious separation anxiety (when I had to leave for work he'd hide under the bed, roll on his back and if I tried to get him he would freak out and growl and snap), and would bark and growl at new people when they came over. After a few minutes, particularly if they paid him no attention, he'd settle down and then would want to be patted and cuddles and was quite happy to curl up on their lap and go to sleep. Taking him for walks, he'd again growl and bark at any passing people or dogs. It was really quite distressing for me because, like your boy, he had the sweetest nature when he felt safe.

We got a trainer in who showed me some ways to deal with certain things, like the separation anxiety and how to distract him while out for walks. Because he was a little dog, treats on walks were hard as I couldn't just give them to him as we walked, I'd have to stop on bend down. So instead when I noticed someone or another dog, I would call his name and get his attention and give him verbal praise for behaving. He was very good with the sit command so while on walks and particularly at home when someone would come over, if he started to bark, I would tell him to sit and praise him for sitting and not barking. I would often have to do this multiple times, but he settled much quicker with people doing this.

I don't think you need to be 'stronger' to be a good owner. It will be a long process and he may never be 'cured' as you say. But that doesn't mean he needs to be put down or given away, it just means staying consistent with your own behaviour and how you deal with him. Make sure you assert yourself as the 'pack leader' as this will help aswell. Be patient with him and be kind to yourself. I had my boy probably 3 years when my ex and I separated (he's still with my ex) and it was something we were still working on. It will take time, but it can definitely improve :hug:

Sounds cliched, but watch Caesar Milan.
Just some simple voice techniques can and will be able help.
I would t recommend letting off the leash until he feels safe with you, not protective of you which sounds like his behavior, toward other dogs/people.
Also using a small empty soft drink bottle filled half way with rocks helps as a tool to discipline.
Hope this helps.

It sounds as though he is a dog that will need lots of work. But you sound willing to do it for him. I was going to suggest head halter so thats good. He is a working dog & will need lots of stimulation to keep his mind busy. I think if you work with him like you are & accept that he will always have limitations then there is no reason to get rid of him.

We have a boxer & I would never let her go in an off lead park. She is terribly unpredictable with other dogs. She is also getting old though so running around isn't on her list of activities.

We did group lessons with our mutt. It was helpful to have other dogs and owners who were going through the same things.

We're starting group lessons tonight. We've been to an intro class. It freaked him out a bit, but it will help him settle down seeing lots of other dogs.

He's come a long way already. He had severe separation anxiety when we first got him, clawing at the door, howling the whole time we were gone. Pulling the blinds down. Now we knows we come back. He still doesnt like it but if he's tired, sometimes he doesnt even come to the door when we leave.

We've increased his at home play and training time to 3 x 15-20min sssions a day plus a walk of 45-90min. We've found since we've increased the training, he tires out a lot more and is generally calmer. It's going for walks that can be a nightmare at the moment.

Our Rotti is very similar - people have said we should have her put down :| the thing is, she is very sweet to us and people she knows. I know exactly what you're feeling. But I refuse to give up on this cute little animal that I carried outside to poop in the middle of the night, KWIM? She's never being abused or neglected by us, and we've had her since 8 weeks. She went to puppy schools and we did everything you're supposed to. But she is just anti-social..

However, she was the runt and I think picked on by other dogs and I suspected treated badly by the huge bloke we got her off - she is terrified of men. It took her about a year to stop growling at my dad with her ears back - now she jumps on his lap for cuddles!

It DOES get better. But with a lot of patience, consistency and frustration. I don't think our Rotti will ever be the perfect socialised dog you see off lead at the beach.. but I found Bark Busters really helped. It took about 6 months to see changes, and again, she's not perfect. She growls with her ears back and tail between her legs when she sees an unfamiliar dog or person. Thankfully she's not the 'attack' type, she warns people not to come close, then when she's ready she goes up (cautiously) for pats. We've concluded though, just in case, that she is to remain on lead at the park at all times (unless we literally are the only ones there).

I highly recommend, if you have a friend with a dog, that you let them become buddies. My dogs socialised with my mums 2 dogs since 12 weeks old and see them weekly. When we go to the park with them, she is with her friends and plays happily, not getting distracted by other dogs. Unfortunately, she doesn't know how to play with other dogs very well, she jumps on their backs and growls playfully but the recipient dog sees this as an aggresive attack, so naturally archs up then start to fight her and she fights back. Even though I can truly tell she was trying to play - she does this with our Ridgeback and my mum's border collies - they've learnt that's how she plays and they happily go with it.

The strangest thing is that she loves kids (not that I would EVER have any dog unsupervised with a child). It's just bizarre how well she is with small people given how she reacts to everything else with a heartbeat. I've accepted she will never be perfect and we have to be constantly vigilant.

Anyway, what I'm saying is I know exactly how you feel. The hardest thing is defending your pet to people that say they need to be put down. You start to doubt yourself. Don't give up on your boy. You might just have to be like us, the people with the crazy growling dog that pees itself and spits when you come too close :( but I love coming home to her insessant licking, I really do :D

Oh and the chicken frames I mentioned the other day - since she has being on that diet she isn't so hyperactive. She'll happily sleep next to me for 24 hours if that's what I was doing.

I had a male boxer that I had from a pup. I took him to puppy socialisation classes and he was great. Unfortunately he was attacked by a rottweiler at the dog beach. He became a bit dodgy around other dogs but we continued training classes, socialising etc but I didn't trust him off lead with other dogs except my female anymore. I was then at a friend's rural property with the dogs one day and a stray dog attacked both my dogs. After that he became extremely aggressive. We saw a number of different trainers and behaviourists, and even a dog psych. Nothing worked so I resigned myself to walking him very early in the morning, always on a lead and muzzled. We had a few unpleasant moments when we came across dogs off the lead whose owners couldn't control them but generally it was a workable though not ideal situation. Unfortunately he never improved and one day finally turned on my other dog, and then me when I intervened. Both me and my female dog were injured. After long chats with my vet I made the heartbreaking decision to put him down. It broke my heart that because of other people's inability to control their animals mine had been terrified as a pup, and that then shaped his behaviour.

My SIL is currently dealing with this problem with a portugese water dog she adopted as a 15 month old after falling in love with mine. Her guy and his past owner had been attacked while out walking one day, and as a result he is now very aggressive towards other dogs. The previous owners and now my SIL are trying all sorts of different methods, and SIL is devoting a heap of time but sadly nothing is working so far.

I hope the group training and a bit of exposure in such a controlled environment makes a big difference for your guy,

That's so sad Lulu. I really hope it doesn't come to that for us. Sadly, we don't know his history, so maybe something like that has happened. Maybe that's why he was surrendered :( We'll continue because we love him to bits and hope for continued improvement.

Oh Lulu that sucks :( the poor thing.

there's also a place called alpha dog where you can send your dog for some intensive work. a friend of a friend was nearly at the point of having to put her dog down because of behavioural issues and she sent her there for a couple of weeks and saw huge improvements from it.
best of luck, keep persevering as he sounds sweet :)

Our dog is like this. He will only socialize with our other dog. All other dogs he attacks. The vet said he has fear aggression. We have had him since he was a puppy and have loved him and never miss treated him. We now ensure he doesn't get into situations that spark the aggression, so we don't take him off the lead or out with other dogs. He's 9 this year and we just make things easy for him itms?

Ginger - that's where we're going tonight for training. They recommended weekly classes for now. If we have to, we'll send him to their boarding school.

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Sounds cliched, but watch Caesar Milan.
Just some simple voice techniques can and will be able help.
I would t recommend letting off the leash until he feels safe with you, not protective of you which sounds like his behavior, toward other dogs/people.
Also using a small empty soft drink bottle filled half way with rocks helps as a tool to discipline.
Hope this helps.

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I have to agree with watching Ceasar Milan, he is fantastic. I know the show seems a bit corny, but I agree with everything he is about. He uses simple techniques that make sense. maybe google him or watch some on youtube.

There is some good advice about. Fear aggression is hard work for both you and the dog. Gentle techniques are awesome, but there also has to be some consequences....

First, work with both the vet and behaviouralists on this. Fear aggression can be reduced with anti anxiety drugs. Its very hard work. We had a dog with severe separation anxiety and OCD. We worked with him for 5 years, we trained him daily, 5-6 times a day, we walked him off lead for 30 minutes every afternoon and 30 minutes on lead every morning. We did training classes once a week. He was medicated and we worked very hard for him and us. Unfortunately after 5 years he developed severe arthritis and became fear aggressive. I was walking him and a child ran out to the fence to see the dog, he attacked the fence. It was one of the most devestating things to go through. The child was fine, it was just knowing... knowing that I had done everything possible and did not succeed. I was in love with this dog, and we spend thousands on him... but we had to put him to sleep. He was unpredictable and I couldn't have it on my head if he had actually gotten to the child. I realised that I couldn't be responsible for it.

So saying that, I don't think you have to make the choice now, but give yourselves some guidelines and draw the line at the decision. Do it now because having to make that decision on the fly was the hardest thing I'd ever done.

We did have a dog when I was growing up that would attack every other dog she saw. Raised from a pup, with our other dogs, no reason for it at all. I took her to obedience classes and she started off having to sit away from the other dogs, snapping at any that got close. I took her for a couple of years and by the end of it she was fine with other dogs. Sometimes she would even play with them. We were able to let her off lead at parks with no worries that she would attack any other dogs. So it can happen. Group classes are a great way to get him socialised.

I don't have any advice, but I am interested in seeing how you go. How did he go at training tonight?

He was OK. Not a fan on the head halter, which is tough. I have more control over him than with the check collar. He wants to please, so that is in his favour. We have lots of practising to do and I need to lower my voice an octave :)

Saying that, when we came home and I went to change, I heard the sound of rustling. Came out to find he'd stolen a bag of treats off the kitchen bench and scoffed the lot. So he got walked around in a circle, feeling sorry for himself.

I'm feeling a bit more confident but that may last just until the next walk. We'll see how we go.

Christy - there is a point of no return and we've discussed that. It would break my heart, but I'd rather that than someone is seriously hurt.

Having any dog with a behavioural issue, particularly one like fear aggression, is so, so hard.
Personally, i believe that you have to find a behaviourist and a technique that works for you, and the dog. They are all different, and some dogs just do not respond to all techniques.
Personally I had a LOT of success with Dog Listener techniques and i use them today with all my dogs. I had a dog aggressive English Setter who is 10 years old now and while he does on occasion still react to other dogs he is no where near as bad as he used to be (he used to go nuts seeing a dog 10 m away and now he barely reacts if dogs walk past him - it's quite possible this is just through sheer laziness though!). If you don't feel as though certain things are working, do not be afraid to try something else or change behaviourists.
Also it's good to remember that while it's very easy for people to judge your dog for having fear aggression with other dogs, there is more than one way of dogs having poor socialisation skills. Often times, those overly friendly, crazy off lead dogs that just LOVE every dog, are the ones that can cause the most issues. they usually lack control, are over stimulated and cannot read the very subtle signals that your dog may be giving them before giving them a much deserved snap. Sometimes it's these types of encounters, which leads to a fairly well socialised dog to become overly wary, and give a warning much earlier due to being wary.
L&B I hope that your latest classes begin to help you.
As an aside, LuluHB I notice you are in Perth. if you are interested in trying to combat your dogs issues, I have some friends with reactive dogs that have gone through "Reactive Rover" classes, and had success. you can google them for information. it requires a one on one consult initially, but as I said, heard wonderful things about them.

Just want to add a couple of other things after re-reading your post. Firstly after having him just 2.5 months, you are doing a wonderful job and I really commend you for working so hard to get him through these issues. As you have already witnessed, a lot of people out there seem to think that the only option after an incident is to PTS... its simply not the case every time. I have seen many a dog rehomed for "bad" behavioural issues, only for the dog to end up in the right hands, where the dog no longer has these issues, or they work hard to get through them.
I also currently know of two dogs on a destruction order by the council (case pending). These dogs were taken on by a rescue during the case and placed in foster homes knowing their possible fate. Both dogs have had no issues and have settled well with their foster homes. Unfortunately with the council involved it doesn't look good for these dogs but it just shows how a change of circumstance for dogs can give them a clean slate, with owners willing to understand and work with them.
Just in regards to the halti - nto sure if you want to try, but there is a product called a "balance harness" by black dog wear. You buy them with a double ended lead which you attach at the front and top of the harness (a traditional harness has a top loop and gives the dog plenty of control and pulling power). they work in a similar way to a halti, where you pull them around to redirect their attention/energy, however while you maintain control, the dogs tolerate them a bit better, as it's not pushing the pressure points on their muzzle which is what makes the halti so uncomfortable and even unbearable for some dogs.

Thanks to everyone who has provided advice. We are continuing classes twice a week, DH and I alternating who is trained with the dog. We both feel we have better control whilst walking the dog and he is noticeably calmer. He still reacts to dogs and some people but he is learning not to. The critical distance is shortening too. Whereas he would lose it seeing a dog 20 metres away whilst on lead, now he can stay in control up to about 3 metres at class. It still depends on the situation though.

We are using a black dog brand head halter and lead. It can't hurt him if he doesnt pull. At home, he just wears a normal collar. When he barks or growls at home (which happens if he hears someone approaching), he is told a sharp No and walked slowly around the dining table. He is still doing it, but now he looks to us more before he loses control. We had tradesmen at the house today removing trees and he was kept inside, occassionally growling or barking, but mostly just lying down watching them calmly.

Anyway, I do feel that the new training is making a big difference, if only to our confidence. there may be no magic cure, but I'm hoping that in a few months, he'll be safe off lead with other dogs. I feel sad for him missing out on playing with his doggie friends. We used to take him up for doggie playtime nearly every night and they'd run around having a ball. However, until we can trust him to come back when called and not to attack another dog, we can't take him. We do make sure he has play time with us though.

One thing that i am speculating about and will be taking him back to the vet for, is I think he may not be neutered. I think he has undescended testicles. He doesnt have the tattoo in his ear to say he was desexed but an absence of a scrotum and testicles means the people at the pound, vets and rescue organisation have all said he is desexed. Every now and again, when he rolls over for a belly rub, I can see what could be 2 small testicles. They are not always obvious though. I've been trying to get a photo so I can ask a vet, but doggie doesnt cooperate at those times. He may need an ultrasound/blood tests. Whilst getting neutered (if he does need it) may not completely solve the behavioural problems, it may help. It will also reduce his chances of testicular cancer. Hopefully they are as obvious as they seem to me and they dont have to do a major operation to find them. It's all just speculation at this point though.

That's really great to hear that he is improving. The fact that he is looking to you more before losing control is, in my experience at least, a very good thing. It may still take some time, but definitely sounds like you're all on the right track :)

Just to ease some of the undesexed worries, the majority of dogs in the past 10 years or so have not have the tattoo's... in fact in the 14 years I had in the veterinary industry, only one vet clinic tattoo'd and only when the client requested it.

I would suggest that the small lumps you are feeling are his glands and usually when he is excited, these glands usually settle down around 12-18 months after desexing, but sometimes they are there for anxious dogs, like any excitement can cause them to be swollen. The should be on either side of the penile shaft near the middle of where the hind legs meet the body... if that makes sense?

thanks Christy - that probably makes more sense. Do you think I should check with the vet anyway? We have no idea when he would have been desexed. He's aged 2-3.

I've had 3 pets desexed in the last 14 years, and all of them were tattoo'd (and done at different vets). I thought it was generally done UNLESS requested not to.

I thought I'd update this thread. We've been training with Alpha for nearly 3 months and we've seen a lot of progress.

Doggie recently had a 2 week ban on going for walks due to his aggression. This was whilst we implemented boundaries in the house that he pushed back against. The new rules include not being able to walk into bedrooms uninvited. Getting the boundaries in the house sorted has improved things outside the house. He is less aggressive on walks. The consequences of being aggressive towards dogs or people are to be told off, marched home and either some isolation time in the laundry or a walking ban. But in the last week or so, he's been able to walk past dogs behind fences without even looking, let alone trying to have a go. A dog walked past the drive way yesterday and he didn't growl or anything. This is a big step for us.

There has been a marked improvement at training, with some sessions he hasn't been aggressive to other dogs at all. We've learnt to stay on top of it, so he gets a warning if we notice him staring at another dog. But he can now work in relatively close proximity to other dogs without feeling threatened. After class, we're having some trainers run their dog almost at him and so far he hasn't reacted. He does want to sniff and play though. The aim is to get him to react so he can learn not to. Overall, he's a lot more relaxed at training. Though he still doesn't like it, he's even wagged his tail a couple of times :)

There has been some improvement at home with him learning to accept friends in the house. He'll still bark and growl, but he'll settle down more quickly now. It's suck it up or go in the laundry, so he may gruff a bit, but he settles down, then eventually tries to suck up to visitors. However, there has been a couple of backwards steps, which we were warned would happen. We've noticed him growling at friends when he's near his bone or something, so we're coming down on that like a tonne of bricks. We think he's trying to reassert dominance. He's lovely but he's smart and if you give an inch, he'll take a mile.

a lot of the recent improvement has been DH getting very fierce in his "No"s. I haven't been as assertive or consistent, so need to keep on top of it. I get sucked into the sooky puppy dog looks, which means he chooses to listen to me less. So I need to work on that some more. He needs to know he has no choice about doing what he's told.

He's still not ready for off lead play time and we may never get there, but we're feeling a lot more confident with him now than we were when I started this thread.

That sounds great. Glad you're making some progress with him :)

Well done on making progress!

That fantastic L&B. Sounds like the hard work everyone's putting in is really paying off.

It's such a long hard road L&B but the rewards are so awesome. I am quietly confident that he will get there. he might not ever be the chilled out, lazy lap dog of our imaginations...and i think a very active intelligence is a key player in this (this is what we found with our dog). in our case, rules are not simply taught (she is a quick learner!) but rules are constantly thought about and challenged in so many diverse ways (and not aggressively, but you can see how she is trying to work around the 'rules IYKWIM). i remember with our old dog (a staffy) that once you taught her something that was it...so easy breezy! ahhh how i dream of that now hahaha.

Adolesence was a huge one for us. our dog was horrendous and we were warned that it would last awhile, but wow, what a shocker! i have a feeling that her being desexed super early at the rescue home has something to do with it, but this is just a feeling and i havent bothered to look into it properly.

But the perseverance does pay off. i wont go into details here as it was a long journey, however, now we know we have a dog that will never totally get other dogs (so had to let go of that dream), so have spent our energy in showing her what is appropriate and not appropriate behaviour and expect nothing more (she will never, for example, want to run and play with a pack of dogs at the off-lead park and if a group of dogs does want her to play we have to reassure her that she doesnt have to and that she can come up to us and we can hold them back...yep, playground politics hahaha).

I adopted a dog 2.5 years ago from the local pound. I think he was abused as he showed strong fear responses to any male he came into contact with.... but not females. As a result, I was the one to train him as he responded better and wasn't afraid when I growled at him for being disobedient. (He's a fox terrier mixed with something else). He'd been in care for six months by the time we rescued him, they were about to put him down.

He also had issues with other dogs, people..... etc. I found my body language was a big thing when it came to walking him. I too would get tense when another dog approached because he'd always bark like crazy and set the other dog off. I was afraid of him getting into a fight, and being a little dog... well, he wasn't going to come out of it uninjured!

It took a lot of work (on myself, mostly) to get him under control. I learned to dominate him rather than punish or praise. When he's doing something I don't like, I say his name in a very firm, low tone, and pull his lead very short and to my side. I command him to sit or stay, and he usually does. He's at the point now where he'll wait un-tied at the front of the corner shop whilst I go in and get what I need. No running off, no crazy behaviour. Not in public anyway.

The part I'm still finding challenging is his excitement level. He's a very bouncy, exciteable individual, mostly because craves my attention with me being at work all the time and so busy otherwise when I'm home. Still, a forceful command or some 'time out' in the backyard usually sets him straight. If he's misbehaving too much, no snuggle time. Straight back outside to think about what he's done. (read: sit around licking himself.... or chasing leaves)

He still doesn't respond all that well to DP, or males in general. He tends to just not listen, or react with fear. So I do most of the commanding. That works for us. I have hope that with your love and dominant guidance this puppy of yours will be just fine. You really can teach an old dog new tricks. It just takes perserverance and consistency. Oh, I also used a 'clicker' instead of treats. He learned to associate the clicking sound with doing the right thing. Eg, I would say SIT. He would sit, I would press the clicker, and give him a pat saying 'good sit'. Try to praise the action, not the dog. Another one: STAY 'click' "good stay" and so on.

*Update*

We have had enormous improvement in Razz's behaviour. We can walk him on lead past other dogs without him growling or lunging. He stills growls about anyone coming to the door, but soon settles down for friends. It may take a while or never for tradies and couriers. he is a much more relaxed, secure dog than the one we feared we'd have to get rid of in July. He is now enjoying off lead time playing with other dogs in parks, but now, he returns when called.

Even today, we had a long road trip which involved him meeting new people and new dogs. He was a bit agitated about either of us being out of his sight, but apart from that, he was fine. Lots of wagging tails when meeting people, including children, and even when seeing a new dog. We are so pleased with his progress.

As I'm a sook, I made a Christmas message from Razz to his rescuers and trainers. Here's the link for any other doggy sooks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55aOkAWYeo0

:)

that is totally awesome! You guys have done way better than us regarding interaction with other dogs. i think most of our fear is our own now though. Stella is a transformed dog but i just cannot relax with her around other dogs. I should get her into a class so that i can regain confidence i guess...

that is so great L&B. So lovely to see what a happy doggy you now have.

That is so sweet L & B! Love the pics of him rolling in the grass. He looks so happy. Glad you've found alpha dog so helpful too :)

Razzy is so lucky to have you both as his parents.