Struggling with 4 year old Vaccinations

This is really hard for me to talk about, i get heart palpitations just thinking about it but I have to deal with this as I received a letter today saying if i didn't call the immunisation register the CCB would be cancelled for ds2 (4 & 1/2 years old). So I hope you can answer some of my questions and guide me in the right direction, because i'm finding the information out there too overwhelming. I just keep putting it off.

So long story short here... i've never been 'sold' on the vax concept, but didn't feel confident enough not to vax ds1. At the time, the said risks of not vaccinating swayed me to vaccinate.

So ds1 is 6 and is fully vaxed except for varicella.

DS2 was vaccinated to 12 months, so had everything they give at 12 months. This is where its upsetting... his speech had began to develop "normally" but stopped and regressed after the vaccination. He developed some behavioural 'issues' and everything was challenging. He didn't seem 'right' and i felt like something was wrong. I researched and obviously came across info linking ASD's to vaccinations, i panicked. Behaviour and lack of development lead to testing, and he was delayed in some areas but ahead in others. Speech was severely delayed, went through therapy. An ASD was ruled out, finally. Only in the past 9 months has he 'caught' up speech wise and been given the all clear developmentally. These past few years have been so dark for us though... I was told by so many drs, paed, specialists that the vaccination had nothing to do with his issues, in fact many scoffed and made me feel stupid for suggesting it, mocked me for believing what i read on the internet... rather i was just a mother desperately trying to find an answer... why had my son gone from babbling and attemting words to - complete and utter silence? NO one had an answer. I spent my days wrangling violent tempers and doing speech work with him whilst treading the water of my own deep depression. I am so thankful we are now both out of the woods, so to speak. He is well, he is happy, He has been 'labelled' developmentally 'normal'. I have recovered too but i'm left with this agonising decision as to how to proceed with the 4 year old vaccinations.

I want to keep my head in the sand, and delay, but on the other hand i just want to make a decision... it we're not going to continue vaccinating then i need to decide that. I'm just strugging with the decision.

Okay, so the developmental challenges of my son could have had nothing to do with the fact he was vaccinated... but then i just didn't have a good feeling about it. Whereas with my first son, i wasn't happy about vaccinating him but i certainly didn't feel like something wasn't right about it. Yet he didn't have any developmental issues, so who knows.

So the things that do make me want to continue vaccinating are the illnesses themselves, the fear of him dying. Where can i find non biased info about the risks and benefits of each individual vaccine? As in how many children are likely to contract it in the western world etc, then how many of those go on to have a lifelong issue versus a complication from the vaccine itself?

And as for the 4 year old vax - did anyone do all the ones previous but stop at the 4 year old one? IF so why? (technically we stopped at 18 months as he hasn't had chicken pox vax.)

If he managed to survive the 12 months vax, despite those developmental issues, is there any reason for me to logistically worry about the MMR since he already had it the first time? or is my worry valid given my experience?

With the tetanus, can you give that separately? Does anyone recommend this? I think this one is important because i've had it myself several times in childhood and adulthood (cut from a rusty fence and card accidents). Would like info on this one.

Ultimately i just want to do what has the lowest risk of harm, i used to think that was vaccinating but now i'm not so sure....

I hope this makes sense and don't mean to offend either way.

Bias statement: I am pro-vaccination in most circumstances, my son is vaccinated but NOT with all the vaccinations offered as standard in Australia.

Firstly, the research that links autism to MMR is spurious, at best. There is NOT a clear-cut link. MMR vaccination does NOT make a normal child autistic - I do believe, however, that while a child's body processes the vaccine, small traits can become more pronounced. The studies you have seen on the internet are BAD science and should not be in circulation. I applaud you for researching (as the doctors should have), but please look at the science and the methodology rather than just believing everything you read. (And, let's be fair, the internet does often spout a lot of rubbish.)

My son is on the autistic spectrum and had his MMR. He was on the spectrum before that - and it was likely he would have traits anyway. To me, the outcomes of one of these illnesses are far worse than autism. And it sounds like there are no long-term negative outcomes for you.

However, you want knowledge to make choices, so here is some information:
MMR is the ONLY vaccine that has been linked to autism, rightly or wrongly.
You can have seperate jabs for measles, mumps and rubella, given days/weeks/months apart if you choose.
All vaccinations come in separate shots, if you want - but they may not be covered by your health insurance, so you may end up out of pocket.

You can also delay vaccinations - many scheduled vaccinations are in a time frame: eg Liebling had some that were "age 3-5". We started getting pestered for him to have them age 3. He had them done age 4.5 because I wanted to give him a bit longer to develop before shoving more chemicals into his body. Plus he was very ill at age 3, and I wanted to give him the vaccines in a holiday time so I could be at home with him for a few days to see how he coped.

There is info on the BB main page on vaccination negatives - but that is written from an anti-vax bias, IMO. The main positives from vaccination include an immune system that is coached how to respond to potentially deadly illnesses. However, some vaccines have time limits, so you have extra protection for X amount of years. Some illnesses are worse when caught as an adult rather than as a child. You will have to research each illness and vaccine separately as there is no blanket advice anyone can feel truely comfortable giving. Even the "give them all" and "don't give any" camps will recognise that sometimes the opposing view is the correct choice in this case.

From my point if view I believe in immunizing. I studied it at uni and read the research papers and understand the stats. In saying that both DD's are fully immunized however after each of DS's first two immunisations he was sick and off. Just before his third he had gastro and was very ill so when he had his third lot I chose to conscientiously object to the rota virus. Signed a form and all done. I still get my Ccb and I just let them know I objected to one only.

Part of the reason we immunize us to help protect those who are not able to be immunized or have low immunity ie pregnant women, very young babies, the elderly. It's called herd immunity. So it's ok for some if the population to be un-immunized but if it is too great a proportion then it becomes problematic.

I know others here have a much greater passion for choosing to object, which is their choice. But I chose to accept all but one of them.

Research and go with what you are comfortable with. Good luck!

There is nothing wrong with delaying it until you get your head sorted out on it. In the meantime you can lodge a conscientious objection form which will put things right iwth centerlink - this doesn't mean that you are committed to not vaxxing anymore - it just buys you time so it doesn't affect your payments. All I can suggest to you is to read, read and do some more reading. Reading anything you can get your hands on - from BOTH sides of the issue. I will not tell you to not do it, but i will suggest that you delay it until you have it clear in your mind how you want to move forward with it, because once its done it can't be undone. I also suggest you look at gut health and see if that is an issue for your boy. Personally I've done both. I was very much pro vaccination and then i started reading and now I'm not against, it, but I'm against it for my children. My eldest 2 are fully vaccinated according to their schedules with the addition of varicella as it was not on the schedule for them at the time. My third was vaccinated until her 4yo ones which she never had as she had pneumonia at the time and her immune system was already so weak and compromised only a moron would think it was a good idea to go ahead with it. My youngest has only been vaccinated to 6 months. I would much rather that he was not vaccinated at all, but i was still struggling with the decision to stop. after he started solids at 6 months he was having some quite significant reactions to preservatives in foods (sulphates was the worst one) and because of the ingredients in the vaccinations I did not want to risk any further issues. MMR was not a concern, although I will admit that the thought was in my mind. SO anyway long story short none of my children will have a vaccination again. If they decide that when they are able to make the decision for themselves as adults then they can do what they please.

You also cannot get a separate tetanus vaccine. it is a combination one and even the vaccine they give adults is not a stand alone tetanus vaccine.

why is tetnus a required vac?
I have my doubts about the mmr and I think many do. If you can get individual vacinations that don't contain mercury then I'd look into that.
but def lodge the objection form asap with centre link.
gut health is an amazing thing. there are some inspiring storys and work here but some people. I can't recommend this highly enough for reading about.
gaps has a great thread.

they don't use thiomersal/mercury in vaccinations in australia anymore since 2000

some parents choose to SPACE the 4yo vax, instead of the "all at once" mode. another option.

Thank you,

My dh does not want to continue vaccinating, or at least suggested JUST tetanus and whooping cough.

I do need to buy time to figure out whether to do those or not at all, I need to read more. So I'm going to ask my dr for this letter so we can receive the CCB. Any tips on what to say? I'm thinking just that I'm not wanting to go ahead with the 4 yr old vax yet, or possibly at all. Do I need to say anymore? Will i have to sit through a lecture?

In regards to info, can you guide me where I can find it? I keep coming across the same things such as "the immunisation myth" and other pro-vax stuff. Or the personal horror stories. So i keep going back and forth without really learning anything!

What I really want to read is research, the risks of the illnesses and the vaxes. I know you can't post links, but any help would be appreciated, books, names etc. Thanks.

I printed the CO form out and took it to council vaccination clinic and they signed. They are meant to talk with you about your decision but the woman didn't with me, but did answer any questions I had. I wanted to know which ones could be had later, and if there was a cut off date if I wanted to delay vaccs. Your Dr or clinic will be one source of information, or may be able to refer you. I didn't find my clinic very helpful but you might be lucky

There is a book called your informed choice (or similiar) by Dr Peter Baratosey
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He is a GP in Adelaide and he is opposed to vaccinations but my naturopath suggested I read that book when gathering info from both sides as he is obviously a trained health care professional.

You can contract the Ministry of Health for current incidence rates of the illnesses on the vaccine schedule.

I split my DD's 4 month old immunisations so that she wasn't hit by it all at once. When DS had his 4 year old shots, they did knock him around and I think it was the tetanus that hurt his arm for a few days. Wished I'd split his across a few weeks. I'm pro-vax but don't want to get into a debate on here, just letting you know that you can split some of the immunisations (not sure if Council run clinics would do this, but the nurse at my local GP did).

I just printed out the CO form (off the medicare website) and took it to my GP, told her that we were not going to vax at this time, she gave me a bit of a 'speal' that I just smiled and nodded to and then she signed. No dramas.

I doubt that you would have any issues getting it signed.

I would go to your GP and have the CO form signed. They will not oppose you (I wouldnt think) if you then chose to do some or all of the vaccinations at another time. we do a delayed schedule and have not had any issues with the CCB etc :hug:

Here are two non-commercial pro-vaccination links:

www.vaccineinformation.org
http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinati...s/Landing.aspx

The top one is American, and links into other websites that have the specific info you want (found easily on the sidebar - some more biased than others), the second is from the NHS. The NHS, in Britain, is not the most impartial or even caring of institutions, and is VERY pro-vaccine, but does give some information that you can use. Beware of the bias creeping into every page though. I have been given injections by the NHS after refusing them (as an adult); in many cases they value "looking after you" more than caring for you.

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If he managed to survive the 12 months vax, despite those developmental issues, is there any reason for me to logistically worry about the MMR since he already had it the first time? or is my worry valid given my experience?

With the tetanus, can you give that separately? Does anyone recommend this? I think this one is important because i've had it myself several times in childhood and adulthood (cut from a rusty fence and card accidents). Would like info on this one.

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Your concerns are definitely valid. In fact, I believe that any concerns a parent has about their child's well-being is valid :) When it comes to the link between vaccinations and autism unfortunately the jury is still out. There are many out there that will say that the link has been dis-proven, but there are new studies that have come out just this year that once again suggest that there may be a link.

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MMR is the ONLY vaccine that has been linked to autism, rightly or wrongly.

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The newer studies are now suggesting that the link is NOT restricted just to the MMR vaccine. It is known (and recognised by both government bodies and vaccine companies) that vaccines can result in encephalopathy, and that encephalopathy can result in autism. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in the US has even compensated some parents who believe that their child has become autistic after suffering vaccine-induced encephalopathy.

Whilst most children will suffer no brain damage from vaccines (brain damage is estimated at 1 in 1 million after the MMR vaccine), some people have a mitochondrial dysfunction that can develop into autism after vaccination. Some people will never know they have such a dysfunction, but it can run in families, so someone in a situation might myself who has two brother on the autistic spectrum and a husband with a son on the autistic spectrum, might be more likely to have children with the dysfunction if that is what the other family members also have. It's for that reason that we have not vaccinated at this point in time on recommendation from a specialist.

The current President of Merck’s Vaccines Division, Julie Gerberding, confirmed to CBS News when she was Director of the US Centres for Disease Control that:
"if you’re predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism.“

If you decide to give the MMR vaccine I would suggest making sure you DO NOT give panadol before or after the vaccine. Although many health professionals suggest giving it, a 2008 preliminary study found that paracetamol use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder. Ibuprofen was fine though.

Knowing that your child had some form of reaction to his first vaccines is very good reason to have concerns about future vaccines, so regardless of what you decide to do, don't let anyone feel bad about your choice :)



Just a little bit of a disclaimer: Anything I write is either personal opinion or based on scientific peer reviewed studies. I studied microbiology at Universary and have a Bachelor of Science with first class honours. I only write this because I know there is a lot of information and "facts" on the internet both for and against vaccination and I wanted to ensure you that I don't get caught up in all the non-scientific hype :) At my last visit to the GP my doctor actually laughed and said he was glad I had a science degree because it made him comfortable that I was fully informed. He then admitted that whilst he is pro-vaccination, that all the information he gets is from the vaccine companies and that I probably know more about vaccines than him, lol. It's nice to have a GP that is supportive rather than condescending :)

EDIT: Also, I have a number of journal articles on the subject so if you would like any of them please pm me :) Some are rather loooooooong haha

I forgot to mention last night that I find it really hard to compare the risk of vaccinating to the risk of not vaccinating. While it's not too difficult to find out the incidence of certain diseases, it can be quite tricky to find out the actual numbers when it comes to the risks of vaccinating. Especially when it comes to something like autism which is still debated. And then even when you can actually get a number on something, you have to factor in that some kids might be predisposed to problems due to mitochondrial disorders.

An example is measles. In Australia from 2002-2008 we had between 0.5 and 6 cases of measles per 1,000,000 people. Approximately 1 child per 1,000,000 vaccinated will suffer encephalopathy as a result. That risk looks the same as the risk of getting measles for the general population, but there is no way to tell what the actual risk factor is for those with a mitochondrial disorder. Those kids might make up a large proportion of those that are effected, so their risk factor would be higher. And then you have to weigh up the risk of catching measles and possibly have a very mild case with no lasting effects, versus the risk of permanent brain damage from vaccine-induced encephalopathy. Then to make it an even harder choice, there is also a risk of encephalopathy if a child catches measles (which is 1 in 1000 infected).... Very tricky stuff :/


Flying Butter, sending you the links you requested now :)

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~Mylitta~ I'd be really interested in some info too if you wouldn't mind! DS is 10mths and so far not vax'd at all because I'm just not comfortable with the risk vs benefits so far but are open to selective or delayed vax. I have family history of reactions to vaccines (mum and brother).

Sorry to hijack, OP

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That was the other reason we haven't vacc'd yet. As I child I nearly died after a round of vaccinations when I stopped breathing within half an hour of it being injected. I didn't have the booster shots after that. The whooping cough vaccine was the suspect, but it couldn't be confirmed, so even though the whooping cough vaccine has changed now I am still unvaccinated for it. My two step sons and my hubby caught whooping cough when my son was about a year old. They are all fully vaccinated and still caught it, whereas my son and I are not vaccinated and didn't get it. The doctor told us the main strain going around at the moment isn't covered by the vaccine at all :(

I've pm'd you the links :)

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Your concerns are definitely valid. In fact, I believe that any concerns a parent has about their child's well-being is valid :) When it comes to the link between vaccinations and autism unfortunately the jury is still out. There are many out there that will say that the link has been dis-proven, but there are new studies that have come out just this year that once again suggest that there may be a link.



The newer studies are now suggesting that the link is NOT restricted just to the MMR vaccine. It is known (and recognised by both government bodies and vaccine companies) that vaccines can result in encephalopathy, and that encephalopathy can result in autism. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in the US has even compensated some parents who believe that their child has become autistic after suffering vaccine-induced encephalopathy.

Whilst most children will suffer no brain damage from vaccines (brain damage is estimated at 1 in 1 million after the MMR vaccine), some people have a mitochondrial dysfunction that can develop into autism after vaccination. Some people will never know they have such a dysfunction, but it can run in families, so someone in a situation might myself who has two brother on the autistic spectrum and a husband with a son on the autistic spectrum, might be more likely to have children with the dysfunction if that is what the other family members also have. It's for that reason that we have not vaccinated at this point in time on recommendation from a specialist.

The current President of Merck’s Vaccines Division, Julie Gerberding, confirmed to CBS News when she was Director of the US Centres for Disease Control that:
"if you’re predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism.“

If you decide to give the MMR vaccine I would suggest making sure you DO NOT give panadol before or after the vaccine. Although many health professionals suggest giving it, a 2008 preliminary study found that paracetamol use after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination was associated with autistic disorder. Ibuprofen was fine though.

Knowing that your child had some form of reaction to his first vaccines is very good reason to have concerns about future vaccines, so regardless of what you decide to do, don't let anyone feel bad about your choice :)



Just a little bit of a disclaimer: Anything I write is either personal opinion or based on scientific peer reviewed studies. I studied microbiology at Universary and have a Bachelor of Science with first class honours. I only write this because I know there is a lot of information and "facts" on the internet both for and against vaccination and I wanted to ensure you that I don't get caught up in all the non-scientific hype :) At my last visit to the GP my doctor actually laughed and said he was glad I had a science degree because it made him comfortable that I was fully informed. He then admitted that whilst he is pro-vaccination, that all the information he gets is from the vaccine companies and that I probably know more about vaccines than him, lol. It's nice to have a GP that is supportive rather than condescending :)

EDIT: Also, I have a number of journal articles on the subject so if you would like any of them please pm me :) Some are rather loooooooong haha

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Thank you so much for posting. I don't have the PM function, can i pass my email on somehow if you could send me those articles?

I did read recently in the Daily Mail about them attributing the cause of this boy's *reaction* to the MMR, causing? his Autism... if i understood that correctly.

And thank you so much for sharing the numbers, that's what i was wondering.



We're going in tomorrow and straight out asking for the CO form, either way i'm delaying it for now as I don't want to vaccinate him any further than i already have. I just can't get past this niggling feeling saying don't do it. I wish i'd listened to myself the first time round, so be it though.

I'll keep researching though, I want to be even more informed for our third child. So thank you all for the feedback and suggestions.

You're welcome. I find sometimes that I come across as anti-vaccination, but despite my kids not being vaccinated I actually lean closer to the "pro" side. But I strongly believe that there are some children more susceptible to reactions (both mild and severe) and that the more informed a parent is, the better :)

Hmm, I guess you could pop your email in here and then as soon as I get it you could edit it out of your post...?

I read about that little boy recently too. I have a feeling that it is the first time a case has been won based on the argument of an underlying mitochondrial disorder. From memory the ruling said that they didn't know how the vaccine caused the autism, just that it did.