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Just a bit of musing about ISOFIX, when it comes in, does that mean we can import a carseat from NZ so we can use an ERF seat? Seeing as they have the same standard as us. That would be super dooper awesome!
Hmmm but wait, can ISOFIX even be installed in your car? Dont think DP would be willing to get a brand new car just so I can buy a $500 car seat from NZ to use with our eventual next baby LOL!
As far as I am aware you can't have isofix installed in your car - it is effectively part of the seat frame. but our isofix carseat has seatbelt fittings as well - I'm not sure about the ERF fitting re seatbelts fitting as we never used ours rear facing - maybe email the supplier and ask the question.
No. It will still be illegal to import seats that haven't been tested and received an Australian Standard. the car seat companies are developing eats for the Australian market that will still need to pass Aust Standards, and as far as they have been able to tell me, that doesn't include ERF even after ISOFIX is introduced.
Lime slice..... Have you heard anything in regards to when the seats are likely to be available?
I'm going to be pretty peeved if we can't get one in time for our July bubba. I think I will seriously look into a NZ one.... simply because they have the same performance standards as Australia and I know the basic outline for the Australian ISOFIX standard (will still need top teather etc). I'm seriously not going to pay $500 for a hassle filled seatbelt seat only to spend another $500 6 months later..... I really really hate the idea of the old seatbelt secured style.........
Just as a BTW I think there will possibly be the opportunity to retrofit cars. I know of a guy that fits the top teather points who was looking into courses on how to do it. Also in my Toyota Carolla the ISOFIX is actually an independent bracket bolted to the car body, not the seats, so I think it would be very possible to retrofit. The afore mentioned guy was willing to retrofit them to our old X-trail and do load and stress tests etc for it. However, no standard existed at the time and he could only work off the euro standard and certify his work after the development of AUS standards. We ended up selling the car because it was too much work and bought another Toyota lol
We don't have a car with isofix but we do have a car seat imported from nz so we can erf. If it were me I would just do it anyway.
Like LimeSlice said ISOFIX doesn't mean we get to ERF :( We also can't share international standards as NZ can so it will still be illegal to use an imported seat. The Aust approved seats released will have the same weight limits for rear-facing as the one we have now.
Cazz88, I'm not sure NZ actually manufacture too many, if any seats themselves. They share our standard and they are also allowed to share the standards of some other countries therefore have access to a wider variety of seats IYKWIM. So importing from NZ doesn't necessarily mean the standard that seat will have is similar to ours. It could be European/UK or US standard approved.
I would be reluctant to use an imported car seat that hasn't been approved for Australian use because I doubt that you would be covered by the TAC or your insurance if you had an accident. Even though we have isofix in our car I'd prefer to stick with what we've got because of that reason.
was asking my brother (MTA approved mechanic and modifier) and he seems to think there will be a mod kit coming out, but whether it it here next year or in a few years time he doesn't know. Basically similar theory to installing baby seat bolt holes in older vehicles that did have them standard.:
We have a 2008 VW that has isofix. We have an ERF imported from the US made by Britax (same company as SnS). My almsot 2 year old sits RF'ing and I plan on keeping him RF'ing for as long as possible. My understanding is that technically, we could get a tkt. I'm willing to risk that in exchange for the proven safety benefits of ERF'ing. If we have an accident, insurance wouldn't cover replacing the car seat but I believe it would have no further consequences in terms of coverage. Again - it is proven to be so much safer that we are willing to wear that as well. OH - and like everything else - the britax costs half as much as any AUS SnS car seat and based on my extensive research is safer bc of ERF.
Ps our seat can be installed using standard seat belts but isofix is so easy!-
This is what I have been advised by my insurance company - unless the seat itself caused the accident, its being fitted in the car is irrelevant to my coverage paying out in the event of an accident. The seat would not be replaced though.:
If something was to go wrong in an accident you could well be blamed for not using an Aus standard seat. Tac are hard enough to deal at the best of times and know from when I was an insurance investigator that insurance companies can sometimes find anything to deny a claim.
Also if the seat is faulty what recourse do you have if it is purchased overseas?
Astrid, that is true, but a child is covered by comp third party and TAC as they are not at fault and had no choice. I know of a guy that killed himself drunk driving and his family still got TAC payout. I know that my insurance company is the same as buliej and limeslice. They will payout because most companies are international and know ISOFIX is better. There could well be legal ramifications foe the parents afterwards but considering the statistical differences for infant road deaths comparing Australia to euro, its a risk I think I'd be willing to take. Being friends with a cop, she said she would have no idea about car seats other than the child should be firmly fitted and a top teather in place. I think you would have to get a thorough roads and transport safety check to get picked up....
I will be thoroughly researching before I go ahead with importing a seat. However it is more a question of whether seats will be available for our bub. The legislation should be well and truly in place by then so I will be able to fully analyse any seat and find one that meets Australian standards, even if they haven't been tested here yet.
In terms of warranty, the seat itself is still covered by its own warranty regardless of which country it is used or purchased in - that has nothing to do with local law, but is a matter for the manufacturing company. If a seat is faulty, you claim it like you would any other faulty product.
Caz there is a chance of legal action against the parents to re-coup any money paid for medical treatment by TAC (or equivalent in your state) if they are found to have been negligent in using a seat that is not Australian approved, as it is illegal. There hasn't been a case of this yet, but it is possible if someone decides they want to make a point or an example. All things to think about.
There would be a vast difference between being charged with using an illegal seat and being sued for negligence. IMHO, I Think any court would have a hard time finding negligence when there are so many studies etc proving otherwise.... youvwould simply go to court and they would have to prove that the child would be safer in an Australian seat.... which I think would be near impossible.... legal eagles please correct me if I'm wrong :D
That's what I think too Caz. Negligence would have to be proven first, ie: that the seat you used was less safe than an Australian approved seat. I'm not sure how it works legally as to which party has to provide the testing I would imagine the suing party? Again any legal eagles out there that would know the answer to that? :D It's just all food for thought for anyone thinking of importing. I'm not a trained safety expert, but, I would highly doubt a correctly fitted and used European seat, that has also passed the Swedish plush test wouldn't beat an Aussie approved seat safety wise!:
Addit: I would so LOVE to see that crash test!!!!! I imagine Aussie experts would have swallow their egos and admit we don't have the safest CRS in the world any more ;)
I completely get what is being said in this thread, but the simple fact it is Illegal, we cannot choose what laws we do or do not follow.
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Yes we can. We do it every day in fact. Having laws does not remove choice - the choice offered is to do xyz or not. If we choose not, the consequence is abc. It is still up to the individual to decide which path they will take, based on their own circumstance and reason.
For example, your husband is having a heart attack in the seat beside you - are you really going to be driving to the hospital at 60kmh? No, you aren't, even though speeding is illegal.
Do you always cross the road at a designated crossing? No, that would be impractical.
There are many, many examples of how we choose which (and how) we follow what laws.
You're aware that there are a bunch of other variables yes? One of the biggest is distance to a hospital. In most parts of Europe they can usually have you in a hospital within 20 minutes of crashing. In Australia it can take emergency services over 20 minutes just to reach a high speed accident. That makes a huge difference to their statistics.:
If you have a criminal finding against you it is very easy to make a civil case of negligence against you. The cost of defending yourself against such a case if bought by an insurance company or a government organisation would be prohibitive. You would be very likely to lose because you knowingly committed a criminal act and then you would probably be liable for the legal costs of the plaintiff as well as your own. If your defence was that it was a superior system then you would have to prove that by paying for testing/expert opinion.
Personally to me there is a difference between a snap decision (eg speeding to save a life) and a thought out processing choosing to break the law. If my husband was dying I don't go "hey screw the law I will save him", breaking the law the does not even cross my mind.:
And many think the same way about the safety of their children in cars. That their safety is paramount, above any law saying they can't use a product that exists at a higher safety standard than what we have on offer here.
It is a fair comparison, I think.
You can see videos on You Tube of forward facing vs rear facing seats - run by sophisticated and legitimate labs - they make an extremely compelling case - and they have nothing to do with distance to the hospital etc - but rather severity of injury - ERF is so much safer! There are lots of articles about this - there are a number of people who are very passionate about car seats and safety who try to educate a wider population - if you google you could spend 2 days reading up on ERF vs FF. I agree with Lime Slice - at the end of the day, it's a choice so long as you are aware of the possible consequences. To me, the choice was a no brainer. As an aside (as it does not relate to the latter part of this discussion), statistically speaking ISOFIX car seats have a much lower rate of improper install as well. We move ours between cars so easily (our other car also has ISOFIX) and you can get is so tight and properly aligned level so easily. Personally, I think it's disgraceful that Australia is so far behind when it comes to ERF and ISOFIX and yet boasts about it's great car seats.
I'm not sure that you tube will make great evidence if you are involved in a court case.
What is fair and logical often seems utterly irrelevant in courts.
I don't care about the court case - I care about the safety of my child and my child is much more likely to walk away from a crash with a couple of scratches when ERF - much better than a broken neck! and yes, that's one of the big differences. The weight of babies' and toddlers' heads will cause their neck to snap when FF and rear ended whereas this will not happen when ERF. It is also better for other crash positions or whatever the technical term is called. What am I being sued for and by who anyway in the hypothetical scenario?
** weight of their head as a proportion of total body weight / strength of neck
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Insurance companies are always very keen to recoup losses and fond of poking about in car wreckage.:
I'm going to assume that at some stage you have contacted the relevant authorities and ministers in your state with a polite and reasoned request to update the laws.
Changes are already in the works
http://www.standards.org.au/OurOrgan...lease%20MR.pdf
It's just going to be a while before the actual standards are updated so it's legal.
I've written to Choice and commented on some Australian news program or newspaper that ran a piece/article about this - many people have - often it's people who have lived overseas and had children and then come here (still with young children) to learn they can't ERF and can't believe it. I think online communities/FB where there are sites that involve people from around the world have also opened the eyes of many as people (like myself) learn a lot of what the OS standards are and why. Somehow I hit upon this during my maternity leave when I was too tired to do anything else and learned heaps about car seats and ERF.
Elected officials have been contacted - there's an interesting quote from some politician in NSW (and I believe he's involved in road safety or something) that said "it's fine for parents to pick what has proven to be safer" or something like that - it was actually pointed out to him that he was wrong, as he didn't realize it is illegal to use an OS car seat...he back tracked but it wasn't very reassuring from a parent's perspective.
I'll risk not being paid for my wrecked car/having payment recaptured - should we be in an accident that is that bad, I'd rather be out the total cost of a car (or 2) than a child.
Buliej...... I think we have a similar philosophy..... if my child is that severely injured whilst ERF..... considering how damn safe it really is....... there's a good chance I'm not going to be alive for them to sue anyway...... just my 2 cents......
For those of you who want to see why some of us are so passionate about ERF, take a look at You Tube "Front facing or Rear facing? Car seat safety TRUE STORY crash test videos" - and if that's not enough to make you think about not ERF'ing your child, generally search front facing versus rear facing. I agree that these videos wouldn't support a court case (but expert testimony probably would) but they are eye opening.
I think my local government, and federal, the ACCC, Standards Australia, VicRoads and manufacturers are sick of hearing from me :p I'm very active in campaigning for ERF in Australia, and for changes to recommendations, laws and creating better education for parents and the public. Changes are happening, but not quick enough and in lots of stages, mostly due to red tape and money :wall: ...oh and inflated egos of Australian experts, I kid you not! I have a fb page committed to promoting ERF and general car seat safety and work closely with the creator of another page that has been around longer than myself. There are petitions circulating gaining support the more people learn.:
Some manufacturers are more interested than others and are being proactive in trying to push for Standard requirement changes in order for type D seats to be produced, the rest are happy to stay providing minimum safety requirements only, as long as the profits are coming they are happy, and don't see the need to budge until they have to.
Thanks Willow - I mean that - I think what you are doing is so important. I'm going to try to find your FB page now (although I think I may already be "liker" as it sounds familiar).
buliej, I was going to PM you but your inbox is full :D
Just emptied it - please re-send!
I think a lot of here do understand the passion and why you are going down the paths that you are. I certainly agree with ERF but I personally would not break the law by importing a seat and I especially would not retrofit an ISOFIX system to a car.
Just because we would not break the law, does not mean we don't agree that the car seat laws should be improved.
Just read a media release from Standards Australia, and it says that the revision of the standard that will encompass ISOFIX will also allow for children <3 to remain rearfacing.
ISOFIX can be, and is often (overseas), safely retrofitted to a vehicle. It doesn't have to be built into the car when it is manufactured.
That sounds promising, hopefully they can make some positive changes. And great to know isofix can be retrofitted.:
Thanks so much for all the interesting replies, its made for a great read. I dont think I am comfortable with importing a seat and using it.... its verrrrry tempting and know I realistically it would probably be fine, I just dont think my conscience would let me hahaha. Hopefully by the time we do have #2 or when #2 is getting close to outgrowing our 12kilo RF seat some good changes have been made and more options are available.
Depending an which seat you have a few of the new ones from SafenSound and Infa Secure are actually tested to 15kgs rear-facing now(even though there is no reference to weight they are still tested with the same weighted dummies) :D The Meridian(SnS) and the Neon/Kompressors(Infa) have the highest height markers on the market, so if you want to rear-face for a long time in an Aussie seat they are the ones to go for :D:
Oh cool! I didn't realise they went so large now. That is great.:
Yep they do. Some stores still have old stock, not so much old but there was a first release of the Meridians that came out with covers that have lower markers than the second lot. So if you have a Meridian or purchase one that you feel the markers are low on, find the DOM (date of manufacture) on the seat and call Britax Australia. They will know from the DOM which seat & cover you have and if it is the old cover with low markers they will arrange to send you a new cover with the correct higher markers :D So if you have a 6 month old that looks like they are at the markers to turn forward-facing, you may have an old cover (or a huge/tall 6 month old :D) But it's worth enquiring you will get quite a bit more rear-facing time with the new cover. The lines for move to booster would be too low as well so even if you have an older forward-facing child you want them harnessed for as long as possible so would benefit from the new cover too.