An Asian language in every school.

I was going to post this in another thread but I didn't want to derail it so it gets its own thread.....

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i believe that all schools have to learn an asian lanuage as part of the new national framework, so id be going with mandarin

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This really bugs me. Every school should teach a language; what language they choose is irrelevant. If we turn out a generation of students with no European or Middle Eastern languages we are doing ourselves a huge disservice. Spanish is the most widely spoken language on earth so if a school wants to teach it then it should be able to do so. Lots of schools can't afford multiple languages so they will have to drop languages that they teach well to teach an Asian language and possibly teach it to a lower standard.

Agreed, I can't see why ALL schools need to teach an Asian language. As a multi-cultural society we'd be better off including European languages across curriculums as well

Have to say I haven't heard this. I know there was a recommendation in the recent "Australia in the Asian century" paper that all schools offer chinese within 5 years but nothing has been made law. I do think however that in business life, students are better off learning mandarin than french for example.

I don't agree that they *must* teach a second language. I think it just adds pressure to kids who are already struggling. For me it would mean just one more class my kid sits out off because its causes too much stress/pressure. To me it should be an elective that people can opt in for.

For example, my older boys can not do music. They can not handle the noise of a music class & struggle with reading music due to their learning problems. So for that 40 minutes of the day, they sit out & do something else (usually not an alternative educational activity but supervised play on the computer) Add yet another subject like language & its just another area they will struggle with. Its like Religious Education. My kids don't do that either so there is another time slot of their day wasted because its seen as an unfair advantage if the kids who don't attend RE do other educational study so they have to sit & colour in or some other pointless activity.

I might be closed minded in a way but I think school is over complicated as it is. When it comes to kids with special needs, inclusive schooling will never work if they are expected to learn stuff that to many would seem pointless. I could just imagine the arguments my 10 yr old would come out with. Everything has a reason to him, how would I justify the importance of learning a 2nd language when we speak English here at home. He struggles with concepts of future use, so telling him that one day he might be faced with a situation where it would be handy to know just wouldn't cut it.

Plus I did Japanese in school, none of it stuck. A pointless waste of my time if you ask me. If I want to go to Japan or converse with someone in Japanese I will need to learn how too.

Im hesitant in posting this because I don't think I am putting into words how I feel/what I think very well..

All schools have to teach a 2nd language, I wasn't aware that it had to be an Asian language though. The primary school DD goes to teach Japanese but they are part of a program where Japanese university students come over to teach in schools. Another school in this area teach Auslan as their 2nd language. The high school my DS and DD1 go to teach Japanese and German, the students choose 1 when they start year 7.

I think a second language is essential in schooling, whether its Asian or not. I agree we shouldn't limit ourselves to solely an Asian language. In the school the importance is to stimulate the brain by using the part that ism pretty much only there for a second language. It is a substantiated fact that having only one extra language will allow the brain to more easily learn a third.

Back to what onyx said though, there shouldn't be a bias of language.

I wasn't aware of any requirement for schools to teach a second language. One of the schools I was looking to send DS to didn't offer any. When I asked, they said that if the student wanted to, they could do one by distance ed but they didn't have enough students wanting to learn to justify hiring a teacher but that was for high school, not primary. The primary section didn't offer any at all. I'm in qld though, not sure if that makes a difference.
I did German, French & Japanese at different times at school. I loved learning Japanese & would love for my kids to be able to learn it too. I don't think it is a necessity though.

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I wasn't aware of any requirement for schools to teach a second language. One of the schools I was looking to send DS to didn't offer any. When I asked, they said that if the student wanted to, they could do one by distance ed but they didn't have enough students wanting to learn to justify hiring a teacher but that was for high school, not primary. The primary section didn't offer any at all. I'm in qld though, not sure if that makes a difference.
I did German, French & Japanese at different times at school. I loved learning Japanese & would love for my kids to be able to learn it too. I don't think it is a necessity though.

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I could be wrong but I was under the impression it was compulsory here in SA....(please correct me if I'm wrong :))

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All schools have to teach a 2nd language, I wasn't aware that it had to be an Asian language though.

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You are correct that at the this time it doesn't have to be Asian however it is part of the new national framework.

Re Mandarin being more useful for business - I wouldn't dispute this however not everyone wants to be involved in international business and other languages are more useful for other things. If you happen to want to sing Opera Italian is more useful and if classical French cuisine is what rocks your boat the obviously French would be your language of choice. And we do significant trade with non-Asian countries if we can't communicate with them then that sucks for business.

I couldn't disagree more that language shouldn't be compulsory. Language doesn't just teach us language it teaches cultural understanding and stimulates parts of the brain that are pretty much dormant unless engaged in language acquisition. Education is about opportunities. Just because I didn't take the opportunities offered by physics doesn't mean that I think it should be dropped from the curriculum. For all students to miss out on opportunities because it is too challenging for a minority would be terrible unfair. Australia lags behind many countries in languages, it would be nice to see us catch up just a little.

Until they bring in the National curriculum then each state is going to be doing it's own thing. It is not compulsory in NSW to teach a second language, nor do I think it should ever be made compulsory. Certainly offer it as an elective and non compulsory subject, but teachers have bigger fish to fry in teaching kids how to read and write in their own language without adding a second on it to that! It's all well and good to say it should be done, but the majority of people simply have no idea how impractical it will be to implement it. Where for example would the school that my kids go to find someone that was not only fluent in Mandarin/any other language, but was also able to teach it? Where would the funding for this come from? Sounds like a bunch of shiney asses sitting in offices making decisions that only suit kids who live in metro areas if you ask me.

Trillian, I can see your point about how difficult it might be to implement in rural areas but.....are there any people in your area who can speak indigenous languages? I would love to see more schools offering students a chance to learn indigenous languages and cultural traditions.

In some states it is already compulsory for all schools to teach a second language and they seem to be able to cope with it so on a practical level it is already demonstrated to be workable. However, it becomes much less workable when the language is restricted. Currently there are schools that change language when the teacher who teaches LOTE changes. If Asian language becomes compulsory then the pool of LOTE teachers is reduced overnight for those schools. In some schools the LOTE is Auslan. I would hate to see the number of Auslan 'speakers' in our community diminished.

Not to my knowledge, but we don't have a large indigenous population here - I can count on one hand the number of families. there are Asian families and some PNG families that do speak a traditional language though.
I"m not saying that it shouldn't happen, I just don't think it should be compulsory in primary school. I really do not think that people realise the pressure this places on schools and teachers, especially primary schools. They are already under so much pressure to do just the basics because they don't have time to fit it in.

can someone actually link the policy documents concerning this? I use the National Curriculum as part of my studies and I've not found anything to support it being compulsory. If anyone is interested, you can download the National Curriculum from here http://www.australiancurriculum.edu.au/Download

A second language is important IMO but shouldn't be restricted to specifics.. French is actually a very widely spoken language in business due to its use in Africa and parts of Middle East. I remember hearing the former CEO of my old employer talk about it and was first time I had really realised that French was about more than just France.

I have no idea about the options offered here but in the past the UK was very stuck on French and German. I think a wide range is preferable but also believe that once you know one foreign language is far easier to learn more. (People from dual language countries often seem to speak 3 or 4 languages well)

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_...sult?bId=r4945

Which needs to be read in the context of
http://asiancentury.dpmc.gov.au/white-paper

Interesting, thanks for the links. I do think a language is important, I don't think which matters so much especially as the first language you learn early on. At my school we were required to take both a European and an Asian language (both had a few choices) in the earlier years and then just one for the middle years and then in the final years it was an option to continue (11 and 12). I really liked that system because you got to sort of see the initial parts of a couple then decide which you wanted to further and then whether you wanted to continue to extend it or not.

I think it is very odd they would actually specify which language is required given how fast paced things are - only one stable fact in life is that things change! What language is good for business now might not be later so suddenly we have a generation of children speaking a language with very little diversity? Seems to be closing down our options rather than opening them up. And even if Asian languages are still very dominate that doesn't diminish the need for others regardless.

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You are correct that at the this time it doesn't have to be Asian however it is part of the new national framework.

Re Mandarin being more useful for business - I wouldn't dispute this however not everyone wants to be involved in international business and other languages are more useful for other things. If you happen to want to sing Opera Italian is more useful and if classical French cuisine is what rocks your boat the obviously French would be your language of choice. And we do significant trade with non-Asian countries if we can't communicate with them then that sucks for business.

I couldn't disagree more that language shouldn't be compulsory. Language doesn't just teach us language it teaches cultural understanding and stimulates parts of the brain that are pretty much dormant unless engaged in language acquisition. Education is about opportunities. Just because I didn't take the opportunities offered by physics doesn't mean that I think it should be dropped from the curriculum. For all students to miss out on opportunities because it is too challenging for a minority would be terrible unfair. Australia lags behind many countries in languages, it would be nice to see us catch up just a little.

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I'm on Team Onyx ;)

We lag SO much behind the rest of the world as it is with our schooling. My SIL is European and she learnt 2 extra languages at school. To move here she learnt a third. She can’t believe how simple our schooling is. Somehow the rest of the world manages to learn the maths, sciences and languages without any issues.

I don’t doubt some students have learning issues, and everyone learns differently. I don’t have a problem with them getting help, or different subjects, but why make the rest of the country have reduced education possibilities. It’s like saying, my child doesn’t like outdoor activities so it shouldn’t be necessary for any children to be active??

Trillian, I do see what you mean though about funding and country areas. There is an inequality (my rampage is probably education in general lol). I couldn’t imagine being a teacher who has to cater to all the children. They do an amazing job. I just feel that language is such an important part of education that it should still be an essential.

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(People from dual language countries often seem to speak 3 or 4 languages well)

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My DH is bi-lingual and the speed that he picks up languages is phenomenal. While I'm struggling with 'hello my name is Onyx" he's booking dinners and organising car hire. Does my head in.

When i was in high school many many years ago we got taught japanese, french and german in language classss for year 7 and 8 then could choose them as electives after that.

Dont think we learnt any languages in primary school though.

But that's not saying that it's been passed into law, just that it is still before Parliament. It doesn't say anything specific about second language learning being compulsory and the only hint may be this:

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6c) provide opportunities for school students to develop capabilities to engage with Asia

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Now that may suggest that learning a second language is necessary as part of that intended outcome, but it does not say compulsory.

What ****es me off, is that cuts are being made to education left right and centre and ironically, the very curriculum support department which creates all the curriculum support resources that would be needed to teach a second language is now non-existent and all those staff sacked.

:hide: sorry for opening a can of worms!

You're correct that it's not law yet but the PM's office has been quite explicit that they expect an outcome of this bill is that "every aussie student will be able to learn an Asian language from their first year of school".
It seems to be slipping through Parliment with very little debate.

The infograpic for the masses

ETA - nothing wrong with worms. They're a gardener's friend :p

Just as an aside though, for all the 'White papers' and Bills before parliament, do you really think the Government is able to implement something like this? Every single Government initiative they have tried to do has been a spectacular ****-up that has cost the country billions of dollars. I just can't see it happening. It is one thing to say make it compulsory, but it's an entirely different thing to actually implement it and implement it well without losing out in another area.

ETA - Now the choice of language you used in that quote is interesting - it says will be able to, not 'will have to'. It might be arguing semantics, but to me, that just doesn't sound like it's going to be a compulsory thing, but rather just something that will be available if you want it. I can say my DS1 'will be able to' learn about stud sheep breeding, but that doesn't mean he 'has to' ;)

I certainly hope it can implement a more equitable education system which is what is at the heart of this bill. Of course the opposition will do its level best to **** it up but I'm not sure that they can find a way to support inequality in education so it doesn't make them look bad.

I would disagree that every government initiative has been a ****up. National disability insurance scheme. Not a **** up, in fact long overdue. 150,000 workers in the social and community sector, mostly women, got a pay rise very recently - equal pay for equal work. Not a **** up. A carbon price - certainly not the disaster that the doom and gloom sector predicted.
TBH the longer Julia Gillard is in power the more impressed I am.

But...... I think that's another thread ;)

Granted yes, there are some that aren't and some that will be worth every penny if implemented properly. But again, I just cannot see this one happening properly, if indeed it even happens at all. Onyx, you've been a volunteer in classrooms helping with reading. What do you think would happen to the kids who are already struggling with their own language because there is no support at home? there are parents who can't be ****ed reading an ENGLISH language reader with their kids every night, so you can forget about a FOREIGN language one! If this ever happens, I can see now what the outcome will be, thousands of kids with a half hearted comprehension of a different language and no practical way to use it, so they will have lost it by the time they are adults. I learnt a second language in high school for 12 months and I can tell you now I would be lucky to recite anything more than hello, goodbye and where is the post office :lol.

ETA - found the bit in the White Paper link you posted Onyx that refers to this;

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1. Every Australian student will have significant exposure to studies of Asia across the curriculum to increase their cultural knowledge and skills and enable them to be active in the region.
   
   • All schools will engage with at least one school in Asia to support the teaching of a priority Asian language, including through increased use of the National Broadband Network.
   
   Pathways
   
   
   • Fully implement the Australian Curriculum, which includes the cross‑curriculum priority of ‘Asia and Australia’s engagement in Asia’. Develop measures to track how Australian students are increasing their knowledge of Asia, in consultation with States and Territories and non‑government education authorities.
   • Work collaboratively with States, Territories, non‑government education authorities and higher education institutions to develop detailed strategies for studies of Asia to become a core part of school education.

1. All Australian students will have the opportunity, and be encouraged, to undertake a continuous course of study in an Asian language throughout their years of schooling.
   
   • All students will have access to at least one priority Asian language; these will be Chinese (Mandarin), Hindi, Indonesian and Japanese.
   
   Pathways
   
   
   • Ensure that every Australian student has continuous access to high‑quality Asian language curriculums, assessment and reporting in priority Asian languages as a core requirement in the new school funding arrangements to be negotiated between the Commonwealth, the States and Territories, and non‑government education authorities.
   • Lead a collaborative process with States and Territories, non‑government education authorities and tertiary education institutions to develop detailed strategies for studies of Asia and Asian language take‑up in schools, including through increased use of the National Broadband Network.
   • Work with business and the community to increase understanding of the benefits of learning a foreign language and boost demand for language studies.

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The bolding is mine. The National Broadband Network. that right there is why this will not work. one of the biggest shambles this country has seen. How many homes have it now? By the time 2025 comes around I bet less than half the country will have access to the NBN. I know I wont have access to it where I live ;)

The other bolded bit still doesn't suggest that this will be a compulsory measure, but an optional one that students will only be encouraged to take, which is not a lot different to what is already in place, only it will extend to primary students. I think what the national curriculum has to offer in terms of learning about Asia is fantastic though.

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Granted yes, there are some that aren't and some that will be worth every penny if implemented properly. But again, I just cannot see this one happening properly, if indeed it even happens at all. Onyx, you've been a volunteer in classrooms helping with reading. What do you think would happen to the kids who are already struggling with their own language because there is no support at home? there are parents who can't be ****ed reading an ENGLISH language reader with their kids every night, so you can forget about a FOREIGN language one! If this ever happens, I can see now what the outcome will be, thousands of kids with a half hearted comprehension of a different language and no practical way to use it, so they will have lost it by the time they are adults. I learnt a second language in high school for 12 months and I can tell you now I would be lucky to recite anything more than hello, goodbye and where is the post office :lol.

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Do you think though if you were exposed to it again, say visiting the country, you would pick it up a lot quicker again?

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Do you think though if you were exposed to it again, say visiting the country, you would pick it up a lot quicker again?

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I don't know, maybe, but probably not. I still need to read the subtitles for Inspector Rex :lol:

haha me too and i did German most of my schooling. That being said i know its still floating around in there. When we went over thre it came back within a few days.

Thats why i feel its important. Even though right now i couldnt fluently converse, i know because it was in there once, my brain can draw on it and if i needed to pick up another language its not going to kill me. If a child is never exposed to another language there is nothing for them to draw on in their adult life. ( off topic i know)

I believe we would limit ourselves only learning one geographic of language though.

FWIW, I think learning a second language and learning it well is a valuable asset that does have the potential to enrich a person's education and provide them with additional opportunities, I just don't think that it should be made compulsory when the education system we have is appallingly underfunded with cutbacks being made right now as this Bill is being put before Parliament. How can they possibly expect it to work when there is no support for the system we do have? They sure don't support it otherwise they would be throwing money at it, not taking it away.

I'm not surprised you don't remember something after only learning it 12months though, that isn't very long when you consider you use basic maths right from start to finish to help retain the basics and expand on it. Think how long it takes young children to learn there first language? And they use it day in and day out. I learnt German for almost 8yrs (from age 7 to about 15 and I'm 25 now so 10yrs ago) and even with years in between use am able to rekindle the knowledge very easily when given opportunities to use it. I also learnt Japanese for 2yrs and could only really greet and count now but in 2yrs with a few lessons a week, you do really only learn the basics of a language. In my opinion though it is the process of learning it that is the most important and crucial part; what you remember will only be useful if you need it and if you need it you'll be more likely to remember it anyway.

I grew up in a country where we had one day of English at school from the age of 6 and then from when we entered high school we added either French or German to the mix as well, so we ended up with 3 languages by the time we finished school. Not only did it open up a world of cultures and educational elements we would have otherwise missed, I think that having a couple of languages makes me a much more well-rounded person too. While I understand the strain on the educational system here in Australia having my mother work as a primary school teacher, I think the relaxed attitude on learning another language needs to be addressed. However freedom for the school to choose the language makes sense. I can converse in 6 languages and none of them Asian languages but this has not affected me working in that region of the world nor having friends from the area.

So for what its worth, I think a second language should be compulsory but not necessarily an Asian one :)

I agree that learning a language is very important, and there is far more to it than simply learning a way to communicate with your sibings that your parents don't understand!! My daughters' school teaches French, starting in pre-primary which for you eastern staters is the year they turn 5 prior to 30 June. Its awesome how quickly she's learning and I strongly believe that the earlier in life you try to learn anything the more proficient you are likely to become. I couldn't however be more disappointed that its French.

If there is only to be one language offered, my preference would far and away be either Mandarin or Indonesian. Spanish is an enormously useful language when travelling the world, but I think less so here than an Asian language. Depends on whether you're going to keep your feet at home or not. I would love to see a compulsory second language (and yes, Asian) as well as additional languages that can be taken as electives.

I don't care which language schools choose, but I wish there was some sort of consistency between schools. The PS my kids go to teaches French, the high school teaches Italian and Indonesian. Other high schools teach Mandarin, Japanese or Spanish. So when kids move into high school they have to start a new language from scratch and soon forget their LOTE from primary school. The same thing happens if they move to a new area and a new school. A national curriculum for LOTE would be awesome to allow kids continuity of learning.

I have worked on the national curriculum English team this year and wrote some units of work for the new English syllabus which will be implemented next year across NSW. Our Asian neighbours are very important as are Aboriginal Australians and these are underlying areas that are focused on throughout the English syllabus. You don't need to learn an Asian language to develop strong foundations with another country. You just need to be aware of the important role that they play in our future.

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All schools have to teach a 2nd language, I wasn't aware that it had to be an Asian language though. The primary school DD goes to teach Japanese but they are part of a program where Japanese university students come over to teach in schools. Another school in this area teach Auslan as their 2nd language. The high school my DS and DD1 go to teach Japanese and German, the students choose 1 when they start year 7.

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I think it's awesome that a school teaches Auslan! It seems something that is often overlooked...

I actually found it really hard to find a school that taught my chosen language. At my first high school, I had the choice of Japanese, German, or French. I loved Japanese but when I moved to another State, I had to travel 45 min to attend a school that taught Japanese... most of the schools only taught French and German.

I know that where I went to school in NSW, there was a large demographic of Vietnamese people moving to the area, so the school then offered Vietnamese as a language.

I personally feel that a language should be offered but there should be more than one offered in High Schools. Whatever the language, it should try and fit in with the School's aims/values/ethos/specialty. For example, if the school has a strong Cooking Program (which I've seen a few schools have as part of a work ed program), French makes sense to me as I'm told that is the language used universally in international kitchens (but maybe someone lead me up the garden path with that one!).

But I do feel that the language should be taught by someone who is fluent in both English and the language being taught. I was taught Japanese by a teacher who had little understanding of the language - as a result, my whole year 10 class failed because she was unable to teach us adequately. So if it can't be taught adequately, it shouldn't be taught at all... but that's my view.

I would also like to see some links between the languages Primary Schools teach and the local High Schools. My DD is learning Italian at school - it is compulsory...but none of the local High Schools offer it...

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Onyx, you've been a volunteer in classrooms helping with reading. What do you think would happen to the kids who are already struggling with their own language because there is no support at home? there are parents who can't be ****ed reading an ENGLISH language reader with their kids every night, so you can forget about a FOREIGN language one!

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My boys are at a bi-lingual school so they do get readers in their LOTE and we have parents and interns from the embassy who come in and read with them. Of course some children are disadvantaged by not having a high level of parental support at home but I don't see why that should be a reason to dumb down the education of everyone. I really feel bad when I read at school that I don't have time to read with the gifted students because IMO they have just as much right to be pushed and encouraged as the students who are struggling. Because they have a second European language the students who are struggling a bit in English are getting a thorough grounding in grammar that is lacking in the English syllabus so it just might be helping them. That said, I was recently talking to a Mum with a boy in year 4 who has dropped the second language and elected for her son to do 2 sessions a week in English in the hope that it will bring his English up to scratch.

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I don't care which language schools choose, but I wish there was some sort of consistency between schools. The PS my kids go to teaches French, the high school teaches Italian and Indonesian. Other high schools teach Mandarin, Japanese or Spanish. So when kids move into high school they have to start a new language from scratch and soon forget their LOTE from primary school. The same thing happens if they move to a new area and a new school. A national curriculum for LOTE would be awesome to allow kids continuity of learning.

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Nah, I think that schools should offer what ever language they want, based on what is relevant to the local community and what teachers are available. When my boys finish primary school they should have a university level competence in their second language. Some of the parents get angsty that at the moment none of the local secondary schools offer advanced options for them. I kind of see their point but I figure that it can be an opportunity. That language will be stored away in their brain if they ever want to revive it and in secondary school they can learn a different language. Then they finish school with 3 languages. Win.

I never suggested or implied that education needs to be dumbed down or already is dumbed down, it's just being realistic! But seriously, you live in Canberra Onyx. Of course there are going to be people like you describe who can come into your kid's school and help teach reading. You have your kids at a bi-lingual school so it would be expected that they would be getting LOTE readers for home. But try doing that in a regular public school with 20 kids located 10 hours from Sydney in a completely white community. I'm just aware of the realities of putting it together. We don't live in a Utopian world.

I do believe that by not offering all our students access to a second language we are dumbing down the education system. In some states it is already compulsory and I think we would all benefit if it was a nation wide policy.The benefits of learning a second language are huge. If parents won't do LOTE readers then give children vocab homework or even send them home with DVD's to watch. Nearly all the most popular children's movies are available in LOTE.

FWIW I grew up in a rural area in Victoria.
Primary school had no language offered (but region even though not catholic school!)
High school offered Indonesian or French, I choose Indonesian - my grandfather spoke this along with 6 other languages so helped with homework.
I moved to suburban Melbourne in year 10, where I was one of a handful of Anglo based ethnicity, Spanish, Vietnamese or Chinese were offered, only to those from that background.
So no formal language offered.
BUT I learnt more languages and cultural education by interacting with friends!

Schools should offer as options for say Saturday school then students from other schools can join.
Maybe not a mandatory addition to the curriculum.
For somewhere like Canberra with defence, government etc then it would be something those kids will be exposed to.
Also very much up to the parents to wavy to encourage their kids to learn. But this is just my two cents worth!

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If parents won't do LOTE readers then give children vocab homework or even send them home with DVD's to watch. Nearly all the most popular children's movies are available in LOTE.

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Good luck with that! I'm not disagreeing that learning a second language is not enriching, far from it. It is just that the curriculum is already so overloaded with what they really need to learn first, that making it mandatory is going to be hard, if not impossible, when working with the timeframes that we currently have. There is only so much that you can fit in to the daily school schedule. I know of schools where they are flat finding the time for PE, which is something else that 'they' are really pushing for as well. Where do you think it should all fit in? What is your 'ideal' school day?

I am somewhat intrigued that all the curriculum fit into my school day when I was there, why can't it now? Has there been other things added since I was a child? (Genuine question!)