im pulling my hair out

MY 4 1/2 yr old is getting more defiant and more challenging the older he is getting it seems...
He chucks 60mins screaming hyperventilating wobblies here at home and up to 2 hours with his dad (he told me)
He thru a 30 min screaming tantrum over a car i took off him as he was being mean to his 2 y brother.....

His attention spam is so quick it is frightening ....and it seems like he does things to annoy me (as im the authority figure iykwim)
He can be a bully to his little brother to the extreme....
and the demanding nature is a nightnare ....

His naughtiness has spilled over into kinder/daycare at times

I dont know what to do next what would you all do take him to the dr and get a referal to whom ever ie psych or pead.?

Please im at my witts end and im not enjoying him atm which isnt nice to sy let alone feel...as he can be such a delightful child.. And before anyone says anything no i dont tell him he isnt likes just the opposite that i love him dearly i can see and hear him and im proud of his good behaviour but the bad needs to stop.

Me too. My 5 year old is similar. He is a really nice kid...sometimes. Other times he is mean as hell to his 3 year old sister. He picks on her really badly. Some afternoons about 80% of what he says is something horrible to her. He is also a big fan of the extended hour long tantrum. The bullying is obviously attention seeking because he knows it will get a reaction. I can't ignore it if he is making his sister cry.

I don't have any advice because I don't know what to do either. We have been down the psych route and it didn't help us at all.

Omg I could far written this post about my 4 yr old daughter (dd2 is 2 also).
I'm finding that being really tough at the moment is the only thing to work. I've taken away toys, tv time, books, not allowed to go places she likes etc.
I'm not sure what else to suggest. Hope it passes for you soon.

Thanks for the replies girls ...
i feel horrible sometimes... i feel like all im doing is growling and saying 'can you please stop that behaviour and be nice' over and over again.
The weekends i have all my children i dread as it is 48 hours of constant demand for mums attention....i love daycare and when i do nightduty as i get a break and i love 50:50 as i need it as i couldnt cope 12 days with this constant i would go mad ...
I was a single mum to my 12 yr old and i thought he was demanding at 4 ...nothing like this child and even my 2 yr olds placid as they come .
The 4 yr old was a challenging baby from the day he was born but for crying out loud enough already please!!!

we bought the book dvd "the kazdin method" for parenting the defiant child and its helping us a lot, with all of them. its gentle parenting focusing on good behaviour patterns. its research based so not just some "gurus" ideas;)

Why is there a huge influx of kids do this defiant crap though ? MIne woke up at 1am today and cracked the poos yet again as i told him it was time for his bed(he was in mine and i always transfer him not a new thing at all but you thought it was from the tantrum that lasted 15 mins ...there was yelling screaming and tears and i lost it put him on the couch and i went to bed and shut the door (umm hello the behaviour is totally uncalled for and so damn disuptive for the entire house.... im totally over this behaviour . This morning it is 'mum im hungry i want breakfast now ...mum mum mum mum mum .....' i didnt raise him to speak to me or anyone like that so at the moment im feeling GREAT not ..... I know i know he is a child but holly **** it is a long long day when the wake up at 1am and then at 6am and then at 7am and demand demand demand !!!! grrrrrr

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we bought the book dvd "the kazdin method" for parenting the defiant child and its helping us a lot, with all of them. its gentle parenting focusing on good behaviour patterns. its research based so not just some "gurus" ideas;)

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Thanks i have googled it and had a quick read and yep that will go on my santa list for me :)

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we bought the book dvd "the kazdin method" for parenting the defiant child and its helping us a lot, with all of them. its gentle parenting focusing on good behaviour patterns. its research based so not just some "gurus" ideas;)

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Just bought the book online :) thanks for the tip

hope it helps :) we have had good results- most days. master 4 pretends he doesn't care when his stars get low so I give him 'practice' to boost them. I do 3 practice = 1 star.
we also do double star activities ;) if we really need then to be good.

let me know how you go with it

well i have to get the book first :) however today he has been just constantly having this 'weird' behaviour i cant pin point it but it isnt normal .... its like xxxx you mum im going to annoy my brother im going to not do what you ask on purpose, and he actually gave me the bird ....so he was marched to the toilet for a wee and staright into the room for a sleep and was told dont come out until you can behave and after a asleep..
He slept for 1 hour ....
Now he was on tramp for 5 min playing with his mototbike for 5 mins would love to be next to me everyminute but demand attention and i have even been on the tramp with both of them for ages twice.... so it isnt lack of attention from me NO WAY!

and i admit i lose my cool as it is only me no one else and it is very very frustrating..... the constant demand is draining .....

im not joking it has been exactly 5 mins on each thing he has honed (sp?) on (except tv which isnt on) .... he annoys his brother and teases him then when the 2 yr goes him for the toy or whatever it is muuuummmm and tears the works from the 4 yr old .. im watching everything.
Now it reads like normal stuff but there is a weirdness that i just cant pin point..... The 2 yr old has more concentration on things that the 4 1/2 yr old.... another toy played with and that was as long as i have typed this .....i have just suggested a huge drink and abnother big bounce on the tramp....

a trying day here too. :hug:

im on my 2nd wine :) and he loves the bath which is a godsend

Sounds like hard work!
I'd look into diet and screen time, too.

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Sounds like hard work!
I'd look into diet and screen time, too.

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TV time you mean ? he hardly gets much of that as it is

Any screen time, yeah. It makes some kids pretty mental.

true but he chucked a huge 12 hours crying stint (with eating pooing and weeing) at 8 months ... i rang the help line as this bub would not settle at all even when drinking he was unsettled....and he wasnt watching tv/laptop then .....

That sounds really tough.

One thing I've been told from behaviour 'specialists' within the education department (I'm a teacher) is to pick one thing to work on at a time. Pick one thing that stresses you the most at the moment and work on that. When I do this for the kids in my class I make a little Velcro chart with 3-4 tokens. Each time they show the desired behaviour that you're working on a token is taken off. When they've had all tokens taken off they get a short reward (for one student in particular its 10-15 mins of computer time). The key with this is to try to catch them doing the right things really often and get the tokens off quickly. It's also important that you don't put them back on if they don't shown the desired behaviour.

I don't know if the above will work for you, but it could be worth a try?

chody47: thanks any tips will help :) ATM he is in my bed settled not quite asleep but settled ...:wall:

Can you get in to see someone about him? Sounds like you are at the end of your rope and I know how freaking tough it is with two parents, I can only imagine how much it would wear you down flying solo.

You are posting here because you *know* that something isn't right. It might be time for some professional help :hug:

Artechim : you are so correct on both levels

and i will when everyone os back to work after New year.....as i know my little man is not happy ... he told me that he remembers dad yelling at me WTF this child was 8 months when we were married and 2 1/2 when i collected the kids the stuff and fled ... in early 2011

The verbal **** followed after we were married ....

GP - referral to a pead who specialises in behavioural problems & in the mean time do some research on ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorders & sensory processing disorders. If you can start keeping a log of his behaviours, what you think set it off, how long it lasted & give it a rating to gauge how extreme you think it was. Think back & write up anything & everything from when he was a baby about his development & any behaviours your other kids did not do or that you thought was odd in comparison. Record (video) him when you can. Ask his dad to do the same. The fact that this is occurring in more then one setting sets red flags for me. Also speak with his daycare about your concerns & ask them to do their own behaviour observations & compile a written report you can take with you when you see your GP & then pead. See a pead first then they can refer you further to a psych or occupational therapist & possibly a speech pathologist if need be for further assessments.

I hate that I jump to those things all the time when I read posts like this but there are tantrums then there are meltdowns. Tantrums in your average 4yr old do not go on & on for that long. I speak from experience & with empathy for your situation. I have 5 children & a husband who are all on the spectrum in one way or another. Trust me I know how demanding & draining challenging behaviours can be. If you feel something is not quiet right with your DS act now. Early intervention is the key with any behavioural or other possibly issues.

Stay strong, take a breather when you need to & in the new year start asking for help. Once you do, things will get easier xox

Thanks Efjay Fiona ...i will do what you suggested as i have always thought ADHD or at least on the verge of it and everyone else says NO he is just a 'naughty kid' or he is very 'Strong Willed' and im thinking mmm i dont think so .... even his father want budge on the psych/developmental/Adhd avenue .... So it is me that will find out what is up with the behaviour as i cant handle it let alone the person (my child) having to live thru it as it must be frightening having 60 min meltdowns .

There is a blog called "My Aspergers child" have a read of the articles on that & also if your google ADHD Australia a page will come up that the web address is pretty much the normal blurb ADHD . com. A lot of information on there also.
Don't jump to quick to ADHD learn what you can so you can identify the issues for what they are & not what they appear to be :) It could be nothing, it could be something that looks like the other or it could be a combination of all of the above.

Today : i spent one on one with him and he was a sweet little angel but then i asked him to pick up a hat and his toy but do u reckon he would do it without attutude and defiance... its like a switch one second nice as pie and the next a little pain in the bum. He was being good for a good 30 mins so i snuck to the car and grabbed two (one for his brother) bubble maker from reject shop from santa.... i hid them in my room ... as my 4 yr old was playing nicely and being nice i said you know what has happened this morning Santa came a little early and left two presents one for you and one for C ....he left them outside the front door . A said with a huge smile really mum really i said see what happend when you are really good and you sleep and dont yell and scream santa sees it and you got a present early... i said have a look on my bed ... he ran to my room and squeeled bubbles mum bubbles and theres two one for cam as well but im having the blue one ok .... and he was perfect . Then he snapped again as he was getting rough with C and after a warning i took the bubbles away and i thought he we go theres going to be a meltdown. Then they had there lunch and the attitude started again and i said your having a sleep after you eat as you must be tired... so there both in the room atm with the fan going flat out as it is so damn warm already ...and i can hear him playing up and he will be moved in a minute as i have warned him that the next time i have to come in he is on the couch ....
So it has been an up and down morning but better than yesterday ! Im getting my period too so im probably not fun to be around also lol and everytihing is annoying .

another meltdown as i type : started at 1 17pm as i turned the movie off as he was being naughty .... all i can hear is i want the telly on i want the telly on i want the telly on .... i have told him to stop the yelling and screaming but it goes in one ear and out the other .... i have left and come back it is now 1 33pm and we have had a meltdown and crying for no reason now i have put him in the bath only thing i could think of to calm him down FFS what it wrong with this child ..... i cant wait for the dr and specialist to be back up and running as i have been pushed to my parent limit .....
We got into luke warm bath as its hot here and he started up again like i put him in a freezing bath it was unbelievable... i told him to calm down and sit in the bath ...unreal is all i can say

and then i said to him why were you yelling and screaming and he said 'cause i wanted the tv on ' i said well you dont yell and scream as that is naughty and naughty boys get no tv no this no that .... i then said your going to bed when you get out of the bath he said no im not .... and i said ' im sick of you being a naughty child and i would like it ti stop and when i get you out of the bath is 5 mins you will be going to bed to have a sleep '
all in this time with me shouting (which isnt cool i know) and his screaming my 2 yr old is asleep :)

That is a typical day for me when my 4 yr decides that having a melt down is better than accepting things and being nice

its so hard. we have mega melt downs over what I think is stupid stuff. but Im trying to just ignore them. i' ll tell them- I can see your upset, when you can calm down we can talk about. I can't hear when u yell at me.
then I ask- what helps to calm down? breathing , nice big breaths. (it helps me too ;)
if they can't then I walk away.

sometimes it works sometimes not.
I don't want my kids to feel its not ok to be upset. but I wish they would learn to not sweat the small stuff do much!

hugs. hang in there

Yes i do the breathing thing as well and soemtimes it works and sometime it doesnt ...... the bath well it diffused it to a point ... at least i didnt have a hyperventilated HOT kid just a hyperverntilated wet one lol

bedtime has been a nightmare tonight.
boys playing up, waking up the baby, adults getting angry. oh boy! Im ready for a wine.
bedtime is our hardest thing atm. I been using nanny 911 and everything else but its taking too long for anything to work *screams*
how are your bedtimes?

Can I suggest you try some visuals warnings for him. If you can print out or make with pencils a STOP sign and also some RED, ORANGE & GREEN squares (or any shape). Green is everyone is happy. Orange is we need to check our behaviour (its making Mummy sad) & Red is inappropriate behaviour (Mummy is now sad). Also have a few dots on a card that you can remove (sticky back velcro attacked to the card & the dots works well) 1 dot for every minute. Idea is that you show him how many minutes till something is coming to an end & you show him as you remove each dot. "ok DS, its almost time to finish watching TV so we can brush our teeth, Look 5 more minutes" Then go back to him, "OK DS, 4 more minutes" & remove a dot while you show him the card.
I can email you some links with free printable visual aids if you like. But if you can have a collection of basic home things like bed, bath, teeth, dinner etc & then you can have the card (I have a A4 length of paper that is cut down the middle, laminted with a strip of velcro so I can add or remove visuals) so you have your allocated dots (you may only need 3) & the task that is coming to an end at the bottom OR the task that needs to happen, So with the above example you could have 5 dots running down to a picture of the TV off & then one of a tooth brush/paste.

If my kids have no warning they freak out. Having the visuals has helped a heap in their ability to process what they are being told. Break down instructions to very simple requests. It may seem like nagging but step by step. It can be easy to forget that they are as young as they are & our expectations can often be set to high.

With your above situation regarding the toys. You could have your card with dots & pack up toys on it. Let him know its almost time to finish up. Then when its time, praise him for playing so nicely, give him a high five & say enthusiastically "OK Lets pack these toys away together, Can you Please put away your cars" Once he has done this, again lots of praise for doing such a good job & helping Mummy (because it makes mummy smile, yes you should have a visual of this too) & toss in another high five or a pat on the back/hug etc.

With the TV situation, I understand that often there needs to be an immediate consequence to behaviours that are not appropriate. BUT try to remember that you have just interrupted his show. It was not finished. If its a DVD can I suggest you pause it? Use your stop sign & tell him his behaviour is in the orange, if he would like to continue watching his show you need to be in the green. But if it hits red, then the movie is off till we are back in Green. Hopefully he will understand eventually that Green behaviour is much more rewarding & you will get less red as things settle into a better understanding.

I know I am making a lot of assumptions but he could be misunderstanding you, he could have a delayed processing speed for auditory information (this were the visuals come in) & when you are unsure, overwhelmed or feeling anxious because you are unsure of what is expected of you then my experience has been the child will explode. Not all respond this way. My younger son is more sulky & responds with tears & frustration.

I will sit over the next few days & email you some links :)

Thanks for that reply and suggestions it so makes sense....the cards ect

(i know i dont need to but i have always worked with countdowns and warnings expecially bath time and bedtime and tv time and i i usually do pause the tv/movie but sometimes nothing works OR my tactics dont work )

Thanks again..... so can i buy the cards or do i make them (im hopeless at making stuff )

:)

hello :)

My bedtimes are usually pretty good but i do allow DS who is 4 to sleep in my bed then i transfer him if i need too half the time he walks ...
I do this as they wake each other up (2yr old and 4 yr old in one room)

So what time did yoyu get that wine and everyone asleep?

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Thanks for that reply and suggestions it so makes sense....the cards ect

(i know i dont need to but i have always worked with countdowns and warnings expecially bath time and bedtime and tv time and i i usually do pause the tv/movie but sometimes nothing works OR my tactics dont work )

Thanks again..... so can i buy the cards or do i make them (im hopeless at making stuff )

I think everyone uses countdowns etc, I hope you did not think I was saying you don't :) . I think its worth trying the visual count down though :)

With the cards, you can print them off & laminate them. Add a sticky back velcro dot & your done :)

:)

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Efja: no im just a tad sensitive about everything atm as apart fro here i havent really got anywhere else to vent (and get various suggestions) My dear mum thinks he is just a 'strong willed lad' and if i hear that one more time i will scream ...
The boys are both at kinda today for the day as i just needed to breath and have a break .... and get Santa sacks ready to give to them before they go to their Dads this evening.

Hope your having some good breathing space and had a great day :)