Washing hands a "Condition of Entry"

At DS' kinder, you are only allowed in if you wash your hands. With soap. And every parent *must* come inside in order to sign the in/out book. I understand this is to (help) prevent anything in the kinder being "contaminated" with something nut-based, but is this a normal practice now? This is the first time I have come across this. Amd it's a little frustraing, because I carry Mack in, and have to wash my hands under a tap that is child height, whilst still holding him. And if I bring my own pen to sign tje book and don't touch ANYTHING, would i still need to wash my hands? I mean, DS' lunchbox touches all the other lunch boxes, so that's more likely to have nuts on it, even though I send nut-free.

I understand what is it meant to help prevent, but does it really?

We had one of those large pump bottles of hand sanitiser next to the sign in book.

The centre had signs up stating that the childcare workers (not visitors) must wash their hand on arrival and before leaving.

I thought the handwashing thing was a more germy thing and nothing to do with nuts.

Personally, I prefer to use the sanitiser unless I can ensure that I can completely dry my hands as you pick up more germs with wet hands. Plus it would be a lot quicker. Too bad if you arrive with a crowd and you all have to wait for sink privileges....

For real? :o

It's a kindergarten not a palliative care ward FFS.

We certainly don't have to, we are also allowed nuts and any other food we care to send for our childrens lunch. Our kinder believes it is in the best interest of a child with allergies to learn at an early age how to live with their allergy as they will have to deal with it for life. I tend to agree. I think that alot of places are going slightly overboard these days.

Seems a bit extreme IMO. We certainly don't do it at our kindy.

Definitely sounds extreme. Hand sanitizer I could understand but that just sounds too much to me!

No way would I use the sanitiser gel- that stuff is bad for your health.

That sounds really, really overboard. Even if it was for germs- it's not like you're in the room spreading your germs around. You're just signing in. Can you jsut ignore it, or do people notice? I would tell them the sink is too low as you're carrying your baby so you're going to bring your own pen to avoid touching theirs.

This has recently been introduced at my kindy too. They have always had hand sanitiser. I do think it is a bit over the top. next they will be asking us to hold our breath while we are inside the centre in case we breath germs on someone!

Our childcare doesn't allow any foods in - but certainly there is no enforcing of washing hands - I think there might be hand sanitiser on the wall somewhere but I haven't seen anyone make sure they are using it. It does sound very extreme if you ask me - and when I was carrying DS in I would have found it impossible without putting him down - and once he has started walking he normally disappears off towards the toys while I am signing in - and I am sure siblings like him would be more of a germy / contamination risk than me.

Surely it doesn't do anyone any favors - outside children are in contact with what has been on others hands all over the place (the hand rail on the way into childcare for example) - touching the button to change lights at the traffic lights etc etc - IMO unless there is a specific medical condition then it is not helpful to be in a too sanitized environment.

Not at ours ... on the contrary, I bring in DS2 with me often enough (who I do not wash sanitise upon entry ;)) who gets passed around while I sign DS2 in or out, greet DS1's little friends, and do whatever else I'm there to do.

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No way would I use the sanitiser gel- that stuff is bad for your health.

That sounds really, really overboard. Even if it was for germs- it's not like you're in the room spreading your germs around. You're just signing in. Can you jsut ignore it, or do people notice? I would tell them the sink is too low as you're carrying your baby so you're going to bring your own pen to avoid touching theirs.

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Sorry to hijack but what's wrong with sanitizer gel?

Sanitiser gel doesn't distinguish between the good flora that we need for skin health and the bad flora that causes disease. it dries out the skin on your hands reducing the skin's effectiveness as a barrier. The non-alcoholic one may also promote anti-biotic resistant micro-organisms.
Since colds and flus are also generally airborne viruses they aren't all the effective at stopping the spread of common illnesses either.

Sanitizer gel has been shown to be more effective in a number of studies though, mainly to do with poor washing technique but its a bit OTT in a childcare centre/kindy for visitors to be using. I do think it has its place for health care workers and child carers but not in every day household use!

That sounds over the top OP. Seriously getting parents to wash their hands when its highly likely your child will pick there nose, put their hands in and out their mouths multiple times a day, and possibly touch their nether regions too all without washing their hands. Is it to do with germs or nuts? Do they have a child currently with that severe a reaction to nuts?

Sanitiser gel is fine for a ward but totally ott for a kinder. Children actually need to be exposed to germs to build up their immunity. Our daycare had gel but it was so you could clean your hands in a hurry if you sneeze. I'd be raising this as an issue tbh and asking for the justification of the policy.

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For real? :o

It's a kindergarten not a palliative care ward FFS.

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I'd be raising this as an issue tbh and asking for the justification of the policy.

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I was at a networking meeting for childcare and we were discussing those who had been through the new assessment process. A centre in my region was marked down because not all families were washing their hands on arrival - we're stuffed as very few of ours do.
There was a very anal director also at the meeting who said she has the hand washing policy in place and they are so strict that one father won't come in the building because of it - he finds it so annoying. She thought it was amusing, I thought it was totally missing the point of why we want to encourage families into our centres - to communicate with them and not alienate them.

The thing we are finding is frustrating with the new framework and assessment process, it does come down to how the assessor feels personally about certain issues and how they interpret the 'rulings' in the framework guide into real life situations. In the old NCAC accreditation process, assessors had a set of guidelines to 'tick and flick' that is no longer the case.

Personal beliefs and values come into the assessment ratings alot now - what I might have a personal dislike for I could easily mark someone down on and that's what centres are finding. Like one in Cairns who were marked as not meeting sustainable practices because they were using airconditioning in a centre in the tropics in the middle of summer.

My goodness. The nanny state is out of control.

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My goodness. The nanny state is out of control.

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Yes, I think the main problem is the people who wrote the framework, with the intentions of it being more flexible and people friendly, forgot that they were entrusting the assessing of it to (often not always) power hungry control freaks who have a somewhat different view of how they want to see things in practice.

I could go on for hours about ridiculous rulings during assessment - like the centre where a child dropped and picked up their sandwich (themselves) and started eating it again after it had been on the floor. The carer had her hands full toileting (while still supervising those eating) one child (she was alone with 4 children) and was marked as not meeting the child's health and hygiene needs because she didn't stop them eating the food from the floor. While I can see their point, I can't see how that could be prevented other than changing the legal requirements for numbers of carers in a room of 4 children.

Did the child observe the 3 second rule? :p

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Did the child observe the 3 second rule? :p

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No I think that was the problem! haha

Do they physically also wrap the kids in cotton wool at this place ;)

Ridiculous! I'm in Cairns and my kids love daycare for the aircon! If I found out they weren't using it to be more sustainable (given we've had days in the high 30s with high humidity) I would be really questioning their policy.

:o How does get stuffed sound?

Do they make you wash the hands of the small children you bring in too??

You are supposed to LS yes.

Our kindy, the children attending have to wash their hands, but not the parents or the siblings. Something about reducing contaminants and other things, not sure what though.
Oh, and if hand sanitizer is bad for your health I am completely stuffed as I have been slathering my hands in the stuff for the past twelve years.

I can feel a seriously worded letter coming on....

I will post back more tomorrow when i can get on a computer. This is actually ticking me off now!

Netix was just thinking, I wonder how your kinder will police this? I certainly have better things to do with my time than hovering over every parent checking they've washed their hands on entry.

I wonder, where is the line drawn? Are people with questionable body odour or personal hygeine permitted to enter?

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Did the child observe the 3 second rule? :p

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lol!


We use sanitiser after toileting, but thats it. Though I will make DD use it before meals if theres no tap handy to wash

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Oh, and if hand sanitizer is bad for your health I am completely stuffed as I have been slathering my hands in the stuff for the past twelve years.

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Pity huh? I used the stuff for years too. But yes, it disrupts your gut flora which is essential to good health, and it contains toxins which are absorbed in your skin.

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Pity huh? I used the stuff for years too. But yes, it disrupts your gut flora which is essential to good health, and it contains toxins which are absorbed in your skin.

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Then every health worker is walking around with poor gut health as it is the primary method of hand cleaning in health care areas. Much better for your skin and more effective then hand washing alone.

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Then every health worker is walking around with poor gut health as it is the primary method of hand cleaning in health care areas. Much better for your skin and more effective then hand washing alone.

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That is really incorrect. Hand sanitiser does not, should not, and was never intended to replace, proper and regular hand washing with hot water and soap. And anyone that suggests otherwise has been misled. You should have no more than 2 applications before washing your hands properly.
I would suggest that if you were *my* nurse and told me you believed hand sanitiser to be your "primary method of hand cleaning" I would tell you to find me a new nurse.

Ummm, hand sanitizer can replace soap and water washing if your hands are not soiled with organic matter. So if I changed a nappy I would wash my hands, if I remade a bed gave a drug etc, then I use hand sanitizer. Maybe the phrase primary method was the wrong choice of words, but it is very very commonly used, much more then you probably think. The use of it was also brought in to reduce the amount of dermatitis that health workers develop on their hands from the very strong disinfectants in the soaps.

This site http://www.rch.org.au/washup/for_hea...ts_Techniques/ details when alcohol gel can be used instead of hand washing in a hospital setting.

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Did the child observe the 3 second rule? :p

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Funny you should say... I've had a validator roll out the 3 second rule. I nearly fainted, until she said she was joking.

Ausgirl - you'll be ok as long as you put procedures in place to encourage families to wash hands. Like the sign, and verbal prompting by your staff.

Back on topic - it really does work at stopping the spread of infection. Anecdotally, families I've observed who do it deal with a lot less illness. If you don't want to do it, then don't; they can't actually make you, but I don't think it's OTT at all, particularly for under 3s.

Ausgirl; I have no idea how they will police this, however, I did "get away" not washing my hands when I went in on Tuesday or today. The kinder lady was standing guard at the door with her bottle of soap on Tuesday, and I just said, no, it's altogether impossible to wash hands while holding a baby, and I kept walking to the sign in book, pulled my own pen out of my pocket, and duly signed the book. Same in the afternoon. This morning, nobody said anything to me, the Mum who walked in directly after me made sure she washed her hands though, and her kids' hands.

There are no towels or hand dryers for the adults/other visitors to dry their hands with, thus nulifying any "germ-control".

I spoke to a gf of mine on Tuesday regarding this, and she happens to work in childcare, and as a distance trainer for childcare. She said this is common practice, and not necessarily about the control of nut allergens, but about basic hygiene; that for many children who come in (to the kinders and the other childcare centres), washing their hands upon arrival may be the first time they have washed their hands all day (and if the teachers aren't "on to it" after toileting, possibly the last). Also, for those who may have patted the cat/dog on the head as they walked out the door of home, smoked a cigarette, changed a nappy, etc. So, as you ask Ausgirl, would these "un-hygenic" children be allowed to enter?

I would use hand sanitiser if I "utterly had to" clean my hands upon entry to the kinder, as even though I have read it is evil, it is not something I use on a regular basis, and as something to use whilst carrying a child in one arm, is definitely preferential to washing hands. Especially in a sink that is child-height.

It just feels like this is a bit out there with the whole "not-allowed-to-blow-candles-out-on-the-communal-birthday-cake" issue which has just come up too.

And for what it's worth, on both Monday AND Tuesday, when I picked up my son from kinder, he had a blo ody nose. No one said anything on Monday, and only on Tueday, the Keeper of the Soap only just mentioned it in a "by-the-way" manner..... :rolleyes: Really? I mean he had a faint smear of dried blood across his cheek. And it only warrants a "by the freeking way" ? :wall::wall::wall: You know where you can stick that soap! Okay, rant over, I just think that is really, REALLY poor form. I can't even call it poor practice, because there was none!

Wow, she actually stands at the door with the soap bottle :o, wish I had that sort of time on my hands!

LS in the health care setting as nurses we are encouraged to use alcohol based rub in preference to handwashing unless hands are visibly soiled. This is from the hospitals infection control service and is evidence based.

It probably does alter our gut and other bacterial flora, but so does being exposed to numerous different bacteria and viruses in higher densities than the general population.

Netix maybe you should give her some info about wet hands carrying bacteria and making it easier to transfer. Im sure a number of people would not be using an effective technique to reduce bacteria load and then spreading the germs over other surfaces with the aid of water to transport them. Really though its ridiculous in the first place IMO. Unless there are children with suppressed immune systems it should not be an issue, if they do have children whose immune system is that compromised then its likely they shouldnt be in a centre with so many other children anyway.

Kids will pick their nose, touch themselves, suck thumbs, sneeze without covering their mouth and wipe their snot on the back of their hands. There is a certain level of bacteria our immune system needs to come in contact with to work effectively.

This all frustrates me so much. Do the people making these decisions have any education in hygiene, infection control or immunology?