Refusal to clean up.....

Mister 4 is doing my head in right now, he absolutely sooks and refuses to clean up unless we help him, and there are times we simply don't have time and we need him just suck it up and do it.

Today I asked him to clean up some craft stuff - I didn't even want him to do the whole lot just do some of it and I would help him, I asked him 3 times and he refused, tantrumed on the floor and I told him if he didn't do it he couldnt' watch a movie with Iz so he's had to watch the Block with me instead - "I don't want to watch the movie"... SO now I asked him to do the Lego he has in here "I can't" so I say I will put it away and he says I don't want to play Lego anyway :wall::wall:

Not sure how we deal with this. As I said at times he will have a go but it takes us sitting with him and basically doing the bulk of it. He also promised me today he would clean up and I have gently talked about how it hurts my heart that he broke a promise and he gave me a hug but still won't clean it up.

Any strategies/ideas appreciated. They both have a rewards chart - mainly used for night sleep time and the reward is a fun family day of their choice (his is a mini train ride with us all).

Hey Tan, I know it's not a lot of help but my 4yo is exactly the same. With everything I ask him to do. And often angry about it.
I have no idea if DD1 did this or not.
Sorry mate, just wanted to offer empathy.

Yep, DS is the same. He wants to do it together, not on his own.
Do you have a system for cleaning up, and spots to put everything? That seems to help a bit. I find also reminding him that the cleaner is coming in the morning and will vacuum up anything left lying around tends to help motivate him.
One of DS' basic problems is that he likes his things spread out all over the floor.....

This may be a little harsh but in the past with DSS ages 3 and 6 we give three chances to clean it up and explain that if they haven't done it after being asked nicely three times me or DP will tidy it up but the toy goes away in the cupboard. The threat of taking a toy away usually works and on the occasions we have packed up ourselves and put the toys away the boys have been less than impressed when they go to play with that toy again and it's in the cupboard.

DS1 was the same. I would tell him two times and if he didn't do it, I put that toy away for a day. If he did the same thing again within a day or two of getting it back, it went away for a week. Then after a week, it was a month.

Lego was a particular drain on my sanity. I told him after the month long episode if he wouldn't take care of it and look after it, I would give it to his friend B, who had expressed interest in having it because he didn't have any. That got him moving.

I have also literally donated toys of lesser value and meaning to them to the needy. I told them if they can't take care of the toys they're lucky enough to own, then I would give it to someone who didn't have many toys and who would likely look after the ones they had.

Plus with the lego I started putting it onto a big sheet to play with so it was easier to tidy up, just gather the edges and pour it into the lego head, and with crafty stuff I used to let him/them have free reign, but when they wouldn't pack away properly, I started to really limit what I gave them so at tidy up time, there was less to pack away. They do get overwhelmed easily.

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This may be a little harsh but in the past with DSS ages 3 and 6 we give three chances to clean it up and explain that if they haven't done it after being asked nicely three times me or DP will tidy it up but the toy goes away in the cupboard. The threat of taking a toy away usually works and on the occasions we have packed up ourselves and put the toys away the boys have been less than impressed when they go to play with that toy again and it's in the cupboard.

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See we do that too, but he just goes - oh I don't want to play with Lego and doesn't care that it's been put away and plays with something else. So frustrating, I wish it would work!! He has been like this since before DH went away, and he is back tomorrow after over 3 weeks in Japan so I am sure that is a factor and he was mega tired too but mainly from sooking and carrying on and fell asleep in 2 mins. He finally cleaned up the Lego but I had to help him.

I throw it in the bin.

Only had to do it once or twice and now he knows I mean it.

I also have been know to wait until a fav tv show comes on then turn off the telly till the mess is cleaned up.

I am mean

Lol

Would he do it if you told him he couldn't do his next desired activity until its done?

Or, since he wants help, could you give him a definite amount to do on his own before you help? Ie, you do 10 big handfuls, or fill the Lego bucket to here or clear this section of the floor and then I'll help you. If this works then perhaps you could slowly increase the expectation you have of him until he can do it all on his own.

Nope that didn't help either!!! He just sat on the couch and refused and nearly fell asleep :rofl: Stubborn little bud! He did get up and do the Lego but wouldn't do it on his own first and I had to help him. It did help asking him if he wanted me to take 5 stickers off his chart which he wasn't happy about so I might have to use that more, and use it as a positive as much as I can when he does do the right thing.

Ms 4yo DS is a bit the same. I usually end up helping (if it's a bit job, I don't really mind). But, his favourite thing to play with/on at the moment is DH's xbox. The threat of not being able to play on that for a day (or two or a week, whatever I decide) is usually enough to sort him out. Does your DS have something (even just one thing) that he would hate to have taken away? What about TV?

I must be a meany, with DD I used to tell her she needed to clean up or it went in the bin, like living the dream I only did it once and she knew I ment business. Thankfully she has thought DS that if there things don't get packed away they go in the bin.

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I throw it in the bin.

Only had to do it once or twice and now he knows I mean it.

I also have been know to wait until a fav tv show comes on then turn off the telly till the mess is cleaned up.

I am mean

Lol

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then i'm mean too because I do and have done exactly the same thing ;)

I've been advised by friends who've btdt that my DD4 is going through what are affectionately known as the "****ing Feral Fours" :o and so far she is living up to the moniker. EVERYTHING is a battle (not just cleaning up after herself) and the attitude that comes with it makes me wonder (and scared) what she will be like when she's 14 :eek:

I miss my sweet, happy, easy going, little girl :(

omg, I so did not need to hear that 4 is feral. 3 is doing my head in!

I haven't used this, but I did kinder duty last werk and when it was time to pack up the teacher put on a particular piece of music - I watched 15 three year olds all stop and start packing up. even my ds who normally needs alot of encouragement stopped and said to me 'time to pack up'. I'm not sure how or if this would work outside of a classroom environment but I liked it

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omg, I so did not need to great that 4 is feral. 3 is doing my head in!

I haven't used this, but I did kinder duty last werk and when it was time to pack up the teacher put on a particular piece of music - I watched 15 three year olds all stop and start packing up. even my ds who normally needs alot of encouragement stopped and said to me 'time to pack up'. I'm not sure how or if this would work outside of a classroom environment but I liked it

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My friend, who is a primary school teacher, uses a similar technique. When it's clean up time she puts on her red scarf so her class (grade prep so 4-5yr olds) know that Mrs L needs their undivided attention and that everyone needs to chip in and help with clean up time. She uses the same technique with her own two boys at home and swears by it. So maybe there is some merit to using some type of cue whether it be visual, audio or a combo of both? :think:

DD wasn't this bad at 4. I'm sure!!!!!

I ask him what if Belinda his kinder teacher says clean up and he says oh I clean up... So just not for me. His teddy is his comfort toy but I could take that away from him, just isn't related to craft or Lego. Threatening to bin it or put away doesn't work. ( I can't bin $$$$ Lego anyway!!!)

Will try the music and cue of a funny hat or something too.

I think it's a pretty normal stage, because my dd is obsessed with doing everything with me, I assumed this was just an extension of that. I always tidy before I leave the house for an outing, so the kids have to tidy or they don't get to go out. As for the end of the day clean up, we tend to do it together because I really want it done.

I also find it useful to have some good reasons for clean up, such as the danger of having toys lying around. Seriously just leave Lego somewhere he can step on it and he will soon see the reason for needing it packed away.

I haven't thrown any toys out, but I'm not sure the threat would work with my dd either. She is much more compliant when I appeal to her reason ie the safety issue of toys lying around. I have been known to dramatically fall to the ground crying after 'tripping' on some toys and she was really quick to help tidy then.

Eta sloane, dd's kinder uses the Beatles song 'help from our friends' for clean up time. It's so cute!

TBH, Tan, I wouldn't take his comfort toy from him. It has nothing to do with packing up lego, itms to you. With him saying he doesn't care if you take his toys away, my DS1 says that too, but when I do, he will ask for it again once it's confiscated. And he gets terribly excited in having it back, so I do think he cares, he just says he doesn't!

Yeah, I also wouldn't take stickers off a chart either - it really is supposed to be a positive tool.
I'm like Arcadia, I end up cleaning up with DD (who is 6!!!) because it's the only way it'll get done completely, and it really is her just wanting to do stuff with me. She is actually really enthusiastic once we get started even though she will (frustratingly I admit) refuse to do it by herself. Both my girls are like this, refuse to do an activity until I get them started, then they complete the task and often enjoy it.
And there's no way I'd throw our toys in the bin. It'd probably upset me more than them, lol.
I do totally KWYM about not always having the time to do it yourself. We are the same some days (my work days particularly). The result of all this is that our place tends to be messy a lot. I'm ok with that though, so I guess my philosophy wouldn't work for everyone :)

sorry I'm with the pp, I wouldn't take teddy or stickers. taking stickers off isn't fair.

most kiddie are like that at his age. they need help, want help at home. its diff at kindy.

what motivates him? mini bribery helps and its not used forever. I give my 4yr acountdown and then say things like "come on, i'll help you tidy up and then you help me get our snack ready".
competitions to.see who can.get their part if the toys looking the nicest (winner gets a treat or a star)

if he's tired/ hungry etc then its all harder :hug:

Thanks for all your suggestions :grouphug: DH has been away for 24 days so am just at wits end and no patience and I think he is taking his cue from that as well. I didn't want to take the stickers away either but threatened it because I was so jacked off - turns out it worked because he went to sleep without carrying on, probably from exhaustion.

I don't want to take teddy either as you said Kel it's not related at all to what he is doing but so hard when what is related doesn't bother him ITMS? I have threatened to take him in the past but never have (that's probably my problem half the time!!)

Will keep plugging away and try all these suggestions as well as maybe starting to help him so he starts but then saying, you keep going and I will be back and slowly getting him to do it himself. Thanks again xoxo

You could possibly try my "teaching" trick. I always start any messy activity with a "tidy up plan warning" Like " we'll play with the toys now BUT if we want to go play outside we'll have to tidy up" and at home when nannying I used to say " if you tidy up while I do dinner prep then we can all go to the park for a while. If I have to help you pack up you'll have to hang in the kitchen while I prep dinner and there won't be time for the park.........." The other thing I did was to use behaviour patterning. If the kids got a new toy or tried a new way of using an old toy I'd help them tidy the first few times and add this help to the above two suggestions. I also model tidying up myself by telling kids what tidying I'm doing and why. "I need to tidy the toys in the living room so we know we haven't lost any bits and so I can vacuum"
This was effective.
So I guess my ideas are
1. give a warning of clean up expectations before the activity starts
2. tie tidying up to a positive "extra" instead of a negetive "take away"
3. pattern the behaviour you'd like to have them continue.
4. explain the importance of tidying and model tidying up

Good luck! Having been a kinda teacher I can tell you every little person is different and they all have a different leel of what they think is "tidy"!

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This may be a little harsh but in the past with DSS ages 3 and 6 we give three chances to clean it up and explain that if they haven't done it after being asked nicely three times me or DP will tidy it up but the toy goes away in the cupboard. The threat of taking a toy away usually works and on the occasions we have packed up ourselves and put the toys away the boys have been less than impressed when they go to play with that toy again and it's in the cupboard.

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this has worked for us so far, most of the time.

the thing I have found with the threats is they work well a few times but if you have a tired kid or melt down day they often don't care and then threats either escalate or just stop working.

I love pattern behaviour/ practice behaviour, I have seen that a bit and it works well and its a great way to give them a star on their chart.

I guess I see throwing g the toy out as a concequence of not packing away, I only had to follow through once and DD understood the concequence for her.

Everyone is different some may seem harsher than others, it comes down to doing what you are comfortable with.

Have you thought about making it fun? Perhaps saying to him ' I wonder how fast you can pack up today?' And then timing him with an electronic kitchen timer. Then the next time asking him if he thinks he might be able to better his previous time. Then reward with acknowledgement of his success. That way there is no power struggle or procrastinating for attention or what we call assumed inadequacy ( I can't do it attitude). You are coming from a different angle. I hope this helps :-)

I agree with the sticker thing, leave it as a positive. He has rightfully earnt those so leave those be, otherwise he might think "well whats the point of doing xyz when mummy will take it away anyway" if you know what I mean.

Teddy is our security item too, we never use or threaten punishment with Teddy unless "Teddy" has done it ;). This way, again, Teddy stays a positive go to toy that still helps with feeling secure and has no negativity attached.

Our 4 year old tests this one out all the time too. We use time out BUT we use it when we are prepared to fight the issue because time out in this house doesnt mean you go to time out and then Mummy and Daddy do whatever task was asked of you. The toys stay there and then the request is asked again, if its not picked up then back into time out and so on and so forth.

We find though that the rule - one toy at a time - works well. If you want to play with the next toy/item/movie then you need to pick up and pack away the last as we can only play with one thing at a time. If you don't want to do that, then the toy stays out and you don't get to play with something else. Our 4 year old was used to us picking everything up for them, they now to do majority on their own. They also know that if they ask for help nicely then I will likely help but not all the time, but outright refusal or a tantrum, will not get them what they want.