3 year old and 4 year old kinder at daycare

I'm trying to figure out how we are going to manage kinder when we both work basically FT hours (with some flexibility around start/end times). I have a 2.5 year old and a 7 month old. Next year DS1 is going to do 3 year old kinder at his daycare - easy peasy - when he's not doing the kinder program he is taken care of by the staff we know and like (we are very happy there)...and no logistical issues working around kinder hours. And DS2 will be doing daycare there as well.

However, I'm already thinking about when DS1is ready for 4 year old kinder. Part of me would like for him to go to one of the community kinders but I've looked at their schedules, and cannot figure out how you manage when working. The one I looked at offers long days around the kinder program on only 1 day, there's a 2nd day that ends at 3pm (still too early) and then 1 day that ends full stop around midday. How do you make this work when you work? It would be so much easier [for us, the parents] to have him do 4 year old kinder at his daycare but then he's never going to do the community program.

Should I just come to terms with the fact that community kinder is too hard for working parents? what are the pro's and con's about doing kinder at daycare vs kinder at community kinder?

Thanks!

Went through a similar dilemma with DD2 and kinder this year.

We had the option of a fully integrated childcare kinder program, but it meant moving centres (not great for DD2) and the parking was terrible (I had a small window for pick up so could not risk no parking to be found)

The other option was to keep her at her current centre and not bother with a proper kinder program at all (very tempting).

The local kinder option thankfully offered after kinder care on two of the days. I went with the local kinder as I really valued the integration into the local primary school and the social connections that are to be made (DD1 is mainly friends with those she went to kinder with). There is also the value of connecting with the parents that will be at the primary school later.
We still use her current childcare centre for the non kinder days and there is one day where DH leaves work in his lunch break to take her from childcare to kinder, on days he cannot do that one of the kinder mums does it for us. I ended up dropping the after kinder care (only needed for 1 hour till the school pickup), I now pay a kinder mum to look after her for the hour and we meet at school pickup.

One thing to remember with kinder is the school holidays. What will you do when there is no kinder? Plus there does seem to be the odd day that they have no kinder (just really preps you for school ;) )

At the end I valued some consistency for DD2 by retaining her current childcare centre and the socialisation of going to the kinder that feeds to the local primary school. I am fortunate that I have a flexible employer, so if there was no after kinder care, I would be able to leave early that one day. Really it is just for the year, so we would have dealt with it.

Best of luck. The whole process had me so stressed trying to nut it all out.

Thanks so much...couple of questions...
Are you talking about 4 year old kinder (I assume so but wanted to check)...you hit on all the reasons why I'd like to send DS1 to community kinder. How did you strike up the topic about paying the other mom to look after your DD? I guess for holidays we would use one of our regular sitters or take the day off if need be. My job is somewhat flexible, but I'm not sure how much I can push it. I totally get why you were so stressed!

We went through this too, with three kids dh working and me running around after all of them with lots of appointments and swimming I found it easier to do kinder at daycare for dd1. It cost a lot more but it worked ok for us although at the end of the year the centre had staffing issues which did impact dd, that could happen anywhere though. We also found she was very anxious about school as she had been at the same place for 4 years. This year with dd1 at school I have been able to send dd2 to a community based kinder but I am forever dropping one of the kids off somewhere so its been exhausting will be glad when this year is over. I think if you can find a daycare centre with good staff you can make it work. Especially as they are all having to provide the same programs as the community based kinders now.

Family Day Carers will often do half day care and pick up your kids from kinder. Otherwise I know people use nannies as needed too.

One of the local CC centres walks a group of 4 year olds to the very nearby kinder and collects them all 5 hours later. A number of mums from DS1s 3 yo kinder group from last year moved to this kinder and CC arrangement. They liked the separation between the two.
Worth asking.

I think the pro's and con's very much depend on the centers and kinders in your area. DD does 3 year old at daycare center, which DS is also at. I looked at the programs and like you couldn't see how could fit them in with working, with 4 year old round here there are a couple that offer two long days 7.5 hours for four year old but to get into that had to send them to three year old and the times for that too difficult. Lots of the four year old ones offer 15 hours across 4 days which is a complete nightmare and really I can't see who that is meant to benefit at all (the teachers often work two kinders so can't see that is of benefit to them).

In the end I have decided that any minor benefit from a community kinder (the only tangible one I can see is that I might get to know some other parents as people get to know each other at drop off and pick up because is all done at same time unlike childcare) would be outweighed by the dashing around involved to make it work. I don't like rushing and the kids don't either so that basically ruled it out - a nice leisurely walk to childcare with me and home with DH suits us much better.

I think having a younger child who is in daycare too really sways things in favor of daycare. I love the daycare center they are at, and so do they and DD seems to do comparable things to her peers who are at kinder. About 30% of kids at the daycare will go to the same school as them - so the social side for them I think is fine. Their 4 year old kinder group is quite small because lots drop out and go to private early learning centers attached to the local private schools - if you only have one child or only one of daycare/kinder age - financially it can work out comparable to send them to an ELC instead of daycare.

hmm...I thought I was a bit of a nut for asking so far in advance of 4 year old kinder but now I'm really glad I did. You all have given me plenty to think about (thanks so much) and now I actually have the time to think about what will work best for us rather than our usually MO of rushing around like crazy because we waited until the last minute to deal with the complicated logistics of work and home life...

DD went to a community preschool (same as 4yr old kinder) on one day a week and did childcare (with a preschool program) the other days. I was very happy with her childcare and what they were doing there, the only reason we went with the preschool was because she had been at childcare for a while (and was fulltime), she had a bit of a queen bee mentality and seeing as no-one from her childcare was going to her school, I wanted her to experience something different.

It was tricky fitting it in - my boss was happy for me to do 9-3 on Fridays and just do the extra hours during the week. DH works 30 minutes away so was not able to help with any pickups. They did have the option of paying a nominal $1 for half an hour either side if you needed it.

If DH wasn't a school teacher (so all the holidays off), we may not have bothered as then we would have had to deal with school holidays a year earlier.

So much can depend on where kinder is compared to your work, are there lots of kids that will be moving on to 'big school' (we only had one), what qualifications do the staff have and what sort of programs do the two places offer?

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Thanks so much...couple of questions...
Are you talking about 4 year old kinder (I assume so but wanted to check)...you hit on all the reasons why I'd like to send DS1 to community kinder. How did you strike up the topic about paying the other mom to look after your DD? I guess for holidays we would use one of our regular sitters or take the day off if need be. My job is somewhat flexible, but I'm not sure how much I can push it. I totally get why you were so stressed!

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Yep. Talking about 4yo.
I am at the other end, last child and one already been through kinder. The mum I asked has her youngest at the same kinder and her eldest in the same class as DD1, so she already had 1 to pick up and hang out for an hour til school pick up, so was not much for her to deal with a 2nd. I went for that option after they bumped the cost of kinder care from $30 to $35 a session, with no discount even though I only needed 1 & 1/4 hours rather than the full 3.

I could go on a huge rant about how kinder in Victoria needs to be overhauled. Honestly it is a joke. Probably was fine before many families become dual income, but these days it is just archaic. For some reason the same council that provides full time childcare, suddenly thinks that a kinder age child cannot handle long days :rolleyes: If I was having any more children I would be seriously starting some kind of campaign about improving the transition from childcare, to kinder to school.

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I could go on a huge rant about how kinder in Victoria needs to be overhauled. Honestly it is a joke. Probably was fine before many families become dual income, but these days it is just archaic. For some reason the same council that provides full time childcare, suddenly thinks that a kinder age child cannot handle long days :rolleyes: If I was having any more children I would be seriously starting some kind of campaign about improving the transition from childcare, to kinder to school.

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Oh go on have a huge rant - I am with you all the way. Like I said before I am not sure to whose advantage it is (coffee shops and supermarkets located close to kindergartens maybe? :-)) - I have two friends this year who aren't working and have done 3 year old kinder, with siblings 1 and under and have said it has been a nightmare and very disruptive to the younger sibling and don't feel has been advantageous to the 3-4 year old either and half wish they had just kept them in childcare while on mat leave - they certainly would have approved of longer sessions even for three year old.

The timing sucks too ds is going to 3yo community kinder next year to endure he gets a place in the 4yo program but one session starts at 8.30 its a huge pita when you have to get to school and find a car park. Dd2 has two 8.30 starts hate them with a passion. I keeping ds at day care one day a week next year just so I can get things done as two 2 hour sessions aren't very beneficial for me.

It might be a bit different here in QLD, but at our local community kindy they offer a range of hours/days but the longest is 8am-4pm two days per week. We do 8:30-2:30 5 days per fortnight (I don't do paid work).

As a community kindy with no day care facilities, most mums don't work or work part time. A fair few days do either pick up or drop offs as well as grandparents. Being a community kindy, every is expected to help out on rosters including doing one day as the "helper" per term. It is great for the kids because it is like having an extra staff member every day.

It might be different in Qld but my DS does the kindergarten program via the day care centre so he could be there from 7 - 6 every weekday if we needed it. He goes Mon - Thurs 8 to 4.30 ish. They do the government approved curriculum and have qualified teachers. To me it sounds heaps better that than trying to fit in half days and full days and random end time like you're describing for the community kinder. Why don't you ask at his daycare what program they offer? What is the difference with the community kinder? Is it a different program they offer that's somehow better? If your daycare offers a kinder program, wouldn't that be just as good? and much more convenient?

I think what Blueij is asking is what is the difference between in childcare kinder/preschool programs and community based.

There is certainly a widely held perception (not held by me) that community kinder/preschools are 'better' than in daycare programs. (DD who does 3 year old at daycare has learnt to say she goes to kinder because people always ask her 'how is kinder' or 'you must be at kinder now', 'which kinder do you go to' and when she used to say no she was at daycare people just switched off, but she realized that if she says 'kinder' people maintain their interest). People round here certainly look at you like "that's a shame" when you say does kinder at daycare and not at a 'real' kinder.

This isn't helped by articles such as the one below in the press last week which talks about research suggesting preschools are better - but when you dig into it that research doesn't actually appear to exist, or is not yet complete, or isn't talking about childcare centers that run kinder/preschool programs - who knows the article is usual shoddy journalism - and I was really dismayed to see it being promoted on the Raising Children Network FB page).

If preschool/community kinders are indeed better (I doubt this is true across the board) then it is even more imperative that something is done about the hours so that everyone can access them not just those that can stay at home or have enough job flexibility, or have family to help out.

I particularly hate the statement I have put in bold - the inference being that those who work put what is best for their children last (it couldn't possibly be that some of us believe that working is better for our children, could it :wall:)

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Preschools better for children than day care
Date
August 11, 2013

Cosima Marriner
Sun-Herald senior writer


EXCLUSIVE

Preschools offer "significantly higher quality" than long day care centres, a long-term study of 3000 Australian children has found.

But pure preschool is becoming a luxury that many working parents cannot afford for their children, due to the mismatch between the eight-hour work day and the five-hour preschool day.

With childcare a key election issue - Kevin Rudd announced Labor's $450 million after-school care policy on the first full day of campaigning - the issue of availability and cost hits the hip pocket of families, their work choices and national productivity.

The taxpayer-funded E4Kids study is following the children for five years to assess how different forms of early childhood education affect development. The first year of data reveals that the average long day care classroom is "lower in quality" than the average preschool classroom.

E4Kids researcher Dan Cloney said the disparity could be attributed to the need for preschool teachers to be degree-qualified and the fact preschool programs run for fewer hours.

CareforKids.com.au founder Roxanne Elliott said quality was usually the last consideration for working parents of preschoolers, who were grateful simply to find childcare that fits with their work schedule. "When parents go back to work they rush out to find available care, then the next thing is can they afford it, then they start thinking about the quality of outcomes for their children," Ms Elliott said.

The number of children using approved childcare has soared 20 per cent since 2008. The childcare shortage is worst in Victoria and NSW, where one in five parents waits more than a year for a place. Children in some parts of Sydney are on three-year waiting lists.

"I don't think anybody anticipated the mini-baby boom we had or the rapid rate at which women would return to work if the services were available," Early Childhood Australia chief executive Samantha Page said.

Sixty-five per cent of mothers are now in the workforce, up from 55 per cent two decades ago. Three quarters of women who return to work after having a baby do so by their child's first birthday, according to the Australian Institute of Family Studies, with often chronic shortages in inner city areas.

Over 50 per cent of parents in NSW and Victoria spend more than $300 a week on childcare, and one in 10 parents has deliberately not returned to work after having children because it is too expensive to do so.

Labor is confident it is on track to achieve its goal of 95 per cent preschool enrolment by next year. The latest figures from the Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations show a record 86 per cent of four- and five-year-olds attended preschool last year.

If the Coalition wins power, Tony Abbott has promised a Productivity Commission inquiry into taxpayer funding for all types of childcare - including nannies. And with Labor having established a paid maternity leave scheme, the Coalition is pushing a longer leave and potentially higher-paying scheme.

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We found that the programming was different at the community kinder they have followed themes like the human body with inscursions and one outing to the gym its not something we saw at the child care based kinder where there was a lot more craft and not the same kind of themes there was a lot more free play apart from the last term.

Blueij - You will have a good opportunity to assess the 4 year old kinder program your center offers while your DS is there at 3 year old - you can always put your name down at a four year old community based and then decide not to go.

A benefit of childcare based programs is that depending on numbers at our center often some of the three year olds go in with the four year olds - so they are getting some four year old program early! DD loves it when she joins the four year olds. You can also find they move into the four year old group before they would start four year old kinder for example. DD has been in 3 year old kinder room since last September so that is 5 extra months she has had in that room. Other benefits I can see of childcare based kinder is that most of the children have already been there for a while so there is no settling in and settling down to deal with, they already know how things work so focus can be on the activities.

There is less parental interaction with childcare based, which can be a good thing if you are working - but you can also easily not know what they have been up to if you just dash in and out at drop off time and your child isn't much of a conversationalist. Our center seem to do a lot of incursions (no outings like community based seem to do) - today they have got someone in showing them sea creatures and rock pools.

I think it also depends somewhat on your philosophy about education - I am all for free play and less structure in the early years so actually am quite happy with the way things seem a bit less structured at the childcare programs. You do notice the difference though in my center at least, between how the children are interacted with in the toddler rooms, compared to 3 year old room and then the 4 year old room is different again - there is a progression towards a more school like interaction.

Ooh that article, what an assumption. If I was not working, then we would struggle to afford the cost of kinder regardless of how "quality" it is.

Maybe I am different from many parents, but I see both childcare and kinder as not something for full blown, shove down their throat learning. If they are cared for, happy, learning social skills, then I am happy. If they happen to learn colours, some writing etc on the way, then that is brilliant. I just want my DD2 to be socially and emotionally ready for primary school, as then she can build on those skills.

When I was going through the decision on what to do, I did speak to the childcare centre leader, who is a qualified kinder teacher about the difference between kinder and straight childcare (no kinder program). Essentially there was not much difference these days, other than more structure to the kinder day. I really wanted to know if I chose not to have DD2 do kinder at all that she was not going to grow up to be a drug dealer or stripper. Yes I did ask that, there is some outdated 40+yo US study being thrown around that has some connection between lack of kinder and social outcome :rolleyes: Our local childcare centre does incursions and excursions, the main thing lacking was the integration sessions into primary school. At our local kinder the prep teachers come for visit and the kinder kids visit there a few times to get used to the idea.

They should all be following this program Early Years Learning Framework | Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations so in theory, it shouldn't matter where you send them because everything is going to be based on this program. Can I ask though what you are planning on doing once he starts school? Kinder/preschool is meant to mimic school in their hours etc so eventually as a working parent you are going to have to deal with the shorter hours kwim? The only other benefit is that at kinder, they are only going with their peers, not babies. Now I know at school there will be older kids etc, but it's completely different to be at kinder/preschool with your own age group compared to toddlers and babies at childcare. Really, it's just what you want for them. The benefits are probably negligible for either one anyway so you'd be better off just finding a place where they are happy .

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Can I ask though what you are planning on doing once he starts school? Kinder/preschool is meant to mimic school in their hours etc so eventually as a working parent you are going to have to deal with the shorter hours kwim?

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If that is the case why do so many have fifteen hours spread over four days? - e.g. 9-12 three days a week and 9-15 one day a week. School hour shortness is one thing to manage - but so few kinders operate with full school length days.

Depending on the center being only with their peers can be applicable to daycare programs too. Ours has five rooms, in a kinder program they may mix with what are called senior toddlers for outside play because share outside space but they are never with under 2.5 year olds (apart from prior to 8:00 and after 17:30), as they have a separate outdoor area.

The structure they have gone to in my area is 8:30 to 2:30 for two days per week (so finishes one hour earlier than school, so horrid for pick up) and one 3 hour session 12:45 to 3:45. So not really school like overall. So even for someone like me who is able to work school friendly hours, the hours still don't fit in that well. I was very vocal at them providing 2x 7.5 hour days, so we could then use childcare on the other days, but an even more vocal group of not yet working parents shot it down (and these were parents who had not yet gone through a 4yo kinder year so really had no concept of what goes on during the kinder and also how to handle kinder when you have a school age child as well)

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The structure they have gone to in my area is 8:30 to 2:30 for two days per week (so finishes one hour earlier than school, so horrid for pick up) and one 3 hour session 12:45 to 3:45. So not really school like overall. So even for someone like me who is able to work school friendly hours, the hours still don't fit in that well. I was very vocal at them providing 2x 7.5 hour days, so we could then use childcare on the other days, but an even more vocal group of not yet working parents shot it down (and these were parents who had not yet gone through a 4yo kinder year so really had no concept of what goes on during the kinder and also how to handle kinder when you have a school age child as well)

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Wow those hours are rubbish - is almost like they have tried to make them as awkward as possible. Was there any decent rational behind those hours and not the 7.5 for two days? If the ones round here published the reasons why then maybe I might understand why like they are but so far haven't heard a decent answer apart from that is way has always been. The system of individual kinders determining their own hours seems odd to me as I don't think is very forward thinking - people are always looking at their own current situation not thinking about future trends etc. I hope they align it more with working hours before my DD is having kids as if she is local I bet it will then be me running round doing kinder drop off and pick up , even as a grandparent I would prefer long days, that then gives me time to do fun stuff with grandkids on the other days :-).

Their ideal scenario was 3 x 5hrs, but that does not fit with 2 groups per week. So they went with the other combo, one group with Monday morning, the other with Monday afternoon, alternating the long days.
I pushed for two different sets of hours. 3 x 5hrs for group one and 2 x 7.5hr for group two. That way both parties would be happy.

The main argument was that they are precious little flowers and could not way cope with a long day and parents should have thought ahead back in the uni days and picked a profession where they could have flexible hours specifically for the kinder year. They seem to have no concept that many parents have no choice and that many children are already doing long days. So they went with the silly hours and after kinder care. (I still want to slap people after that consultancy session)

The long days are an issue as the teachers have to take a break, so they have had to arrange travelling kinder teachers who move between the centres relieving the kinder teachers for their breaks. Think there are about 10 kinders overall run by the council.

When I spoke to one of the awesome kinder teachers that DD1 had, she was initially opposed to the long days, but when she found out about the hours with after kinder care, she said she would have supported to the 2 long days so she give the children two great quality days.

I was indeed asking because "everyone" seems to opt for Community Kinder...when it works for them and to be honest, I was feeling guilty that we weren't going down that path because we both work.

After reading these posts, I took a hard look at the hours offered in the Community Kinder program and they are too all over the place (as per Astrid's comment) to make it work. I've run some numbers and total care cost for our 2 children if I had to work around the Community Kinder hours...and this is taking into account the 1 day they actually have after hours care until 4...and the fact that my little one will need all day care (right now we do a combo of daycare days and nanny days for both) by hiring a babysitter as well as having a sitter/nanny during school holidays would be just about the same as having my toddler attend a private ELC for 4 year old kinder while my little one had a combo of nanny/daycare - and on nanny days, the 4 year old would not need after school care. The after hours care fees at the ELC are reasonable, and cover the same extended hours as daycare...plus they have a school holiday care program also at a reasonable fee (perhaps the private schools assume both parents work whereas the community kinders still assume there is a parent at home). I could not believe this, but I double checked my numbers and it is so. If we just had 1 child, it would work out completely differently as we would only need after kinder hours care on 2 days and then daycare or sitter on another 2 days.

So I guess I'll do what is suggested - pay close attention to what 3 year old kinder is like at the daycare and maybe ask to speak to a 4 year old kinder parent next year. Daycare kinder will be so much easier for us as we can keep what we know - 3 days daycare/2 days nanny and both children will be at the same daycare on the same days. DS1 will not have the sense of "change" to start school, but on the plus side, he's very happy there and we are happy with the center too.

As for what we will do when DS1 is ready for school...his first year will be when DS2 starts 3 year old kinder so we will need to figure it out...we both plan on remaining employed to the extent it's up to us, so we will patch together nanny care/after hours care along with daycare/nanny/kinder combo for the little one. And we hope to each have 1 day/week where we can leave work by 3ish.

Clearly, the people in charge do not understand how hard it is to juggle these programs with workplace hours and both my husband and I have about an hour of flexibility around start/end times...but even this doesn't free us up to deal with the community kinder hours.