Urgent help needed-DS won't latch

DS was born at 7pm last night with a vacumn delivery. He was quite unsettled and has a nasty bruise on his head and we weren't able to get him to latch on whilst we were recovering in the birth suite. The midwife then thought it was because of my positioning (I was hooked up to drips etc so couldn't really move much) and said to try him again when we got back to our room. Once we were put in our room I tried again as he was sucking on my arm and all around my breast but I still couldn't get him to latch so I called a midwife in. She didnt have any success in getting him to latch either and basically bullied me into giving him formula as she said I was starving him as it had been 5 hours since his birth at this point. From my limited experience the problem seems to be I have big breasts (F cup) but only have small nipples. I'm currently wearing nipple extenders to try and help this but I don't know what else to do and really don't feel supported by the hospital. I really want us to have a successful bf journey but I'm stressed that we are already off to a bad start and I'm not going to be able to do this. Adding to my worries is we tried hand expressing and only got a tiny drop of colustrom so what if I don't have anything there to give him?

Hi,
You’ve both had a rough start, but you will get through this. You know how the birth has left you feeling? Well, your little one is feeling much the same - it’s not the way his “internal blueprint” told him the birth would go - he’s been left sore and disorrientated. It’s not surprising that just now he can’t work out how to suck or what to do next. The good news is that he will recover. It’s not anything about your breasts, neither the size of the breast or your nipples). It’s nothing about your positioning. Today is another day. Deep breathe! Keep your little one skin to skin - he will use less energy that way and he will be right there when he shows signs of readiness to feed. Ring that bell and reiterate to the midwife that breastfeeding is important to you and now you are concerned that you are off to a bad start. Ask her to teach you/help you to express. Express by hand every 3 hours today and get those precious drops into your baby. Was he full term? Sometimes with babies who have had a bit of trauma and/or who are a bit early a nipple shield can help get you started. Ask your midwife to help you give that a try. And ask to see the Lactation Consultant. Let us know how to go and feel welcome to ask questions

Congratulations on your baby! Keep him skin to skin whenever you can, all day if possible. It will help with your hormones and him learning your smell, and its just nice to share time with you baby.

Get visitors to stay away for a day or two so you can both get to know each other, and get your strength back.

take care

Barb and Hoti thank you so much. They were exactly the words I needed to hear this morning as I was very emotional and feeling a bit traumatised from the birth and felt like I was failing him but your advice gave me the confidence to try again and have some faith in myself. The day shift midwifes are much more supportive and I am happy to say we got him to latch on. I'm still unable to get him on myself but the midwives are happy for me to buzz them for every feed until we get the hang of it. I've told all visitors to stay away for now to give us a chance to learn how to do this properly

yay! that is great news.

Congrats on the birth of your gorgeous boy Em :) I'm so glad the day midwives are nice and supportive and you've had some success! And I wanted to say good on you for asking visitors to stay away until you're ready, you're doing a wonderful job!

I was going to say the same as Barb & HotI, have skin to skin with him as much as possible. You know no one is coming in, so have him in just a nappy on your bare chest. When he's feeling up to it he'll start rooting for the breast - he may find it on his own after a while or he may need some help. I know with DD she was on there immediately, but with DS he'd get close then kind of fall away, I had to kind of make sure his head couldn't go too far and hold the nipple there for him.

But, it sounds like you're doing wonderfully, keep up the good work! Get as much support, help and information as you possibly can while you've got midwives you trust around you.

Great to hear you've been getting more help :)
Laid-back nursing might really be helpful for you in getting the hang of latching - you can recline in bed or on the couch, for eg, support yourself with cushions, pillows or whatever and put baby on your chest and let him have a go. If you try when he's calm, you may find he will find the breast and latch on perfectly all on his own. Once he's got the hang of it, then feeding him istting up (or however you want to do it) will be much easier.
All the best

Great news Em!

From my DDs first feed until we left the hospital 4 days later I beeped the nurses in for every feed, I didnt care if it was day or night! I wanted to make sure we could do it properly. Once we were home my DH helped latch her on for the first week. Make sure u ask for help whenever you need it and dont feel bad! Congratulations!! :)

So glad it's improving for you!

Agree with Reet, while you are there call them EVERY feed. Also ask about support for when you leave hospital. Do they offer an post natal service? Or a lactation consultant you can have contact with.

Like Barb said, the poor little one had a traumatic experience too so he's going to be very confused. Lucky for him he has you :)

Em I only just saw this thread and I'm glad things have already improved. I agree with the skin to skin advice. When I had DD (my first child) I was obsessed with 'positioning' the baby as were 90% of the midwives it seemed! We had difficulty establishing (pain free) feeding too (also a vacuum delivery, after a very long labour) and things only really started to turn around after I gave up on the whole 'let's get the body in this position and the chin in this position relative to the nipple' etc etc and allowed baby and myself to sort of feel our way into what was instinctively comfortable. That did take time and really only happened once we were home from the hospital and after a couple of visits from a super lactation consultant who made me feel so much more confident just through her enthusiasm and encouragement alone.

Ps I also buzzed for a MW for every feed. ;)

Thanks everyone. I am happy to say we are still improving. We are still having problems with latching but once he is on he is having really good feeds. I am so grateful for the 2 midwifes I have had helping me today as they really have made all the difference with my confidence. I def need to learn to trust my instincts. There is no post natal service offered here but as I am private I am allowed to stay for 5 days if need be so I'm hoping my milk comes in during the time I am here as I've been told it all changes again once that happens.

Em, remember you can always call the ABA helpline - 1800-686-268. Are you in the metro area? There are breastfeeding clinics around the Perth area, as well as a number of lactation consultants in private practice if you need more help once you're out of hospital.
All the best

Oh Em I didn't know you were in Perth? So am I. My home visiting LC was independent- it was organised by my hospital (SJOG Subiaco) but the company was independent.

ETA let me know if you want me to PM you her details.

Well we had a rather interesting night. DS is now latching like a pro and having good feeds but last night he was very unsettled between feeds and my instinct was telling me he had tummy pain. As I had only had 5 hours sleep since the morning of his bday once it hit 2am and we were still awake I caved and called the nightshift midwife (same one as the night before) for some advice on what we can do who told me I was starving him and its not about me and what I want and he needs formula. I'm so thankful for my lovely supportive day shift midwifes as I was able to stand my ground and insist that he had recently had a half hour feed so he certainly wasn't at starving levels. She then told me that I mustn't have any colostrum there so he was probably sucking for nothing ( nice midwife had already told me that newborns wouldn't suck for that long if there wasn't anything there as its a big effort for them) so I made her hand express me and we got 8mls so at least I proved there was something there. We have had good feeds today and now that we have had some time to recover from the birth and get to know each other we seem to be finding our groove. My milk has started to come in so once we get over that hurdle we will go home and continue our journey. I'm just shocked that a midwife would be so anti bf and think formula is the answer??

Mad B snd LL I'm in the Peel region so ill ask what services are down this way for when I leave. Ill def remember the ABA as well. I want to become a member as I'm hoping they may have a group down this say so I can meet some local Mums.

Well we had a rather interesting night. DS is now latching like a pro and having good feeds but last night he was very unsettled between feeds and my instinct was telling me he had tummy pain. As I had only had 5 hours sleep since the morning of his bday once it hit 2am and we were still awake I caved and called the nightshift midwife (same one as the night before) for some advice on what we can do who told me I was starving him and its not about me and what I want and he needs formula. I'm so thankful for my lovely supportive day shift midwifes as I was able to stand my ground and insist that he had recently had a half hour feed so he certainly wasn't at starving levels. She then told me that I mustn't have any colostrum there so he was probably sucking for nothing ( nice midwife had already told me that newborns wouldn't suck for that long if there wasn't anything there as its a big effort for them) so I made her hand express me and we got 8mls so at least I proved there was something there. We have had good feeds today and now that we have had some time to recover from the birth and get to know each other we seem to be finding our groove. My milk has started to come in so once we get over that hurdle we will go home and continue our journey. I'm just shocked that a midwife would be so anti bf and think formula is the answer??

Mad B snd LL I'm in the Peel region so ill ask what services are down this way for when I leave. Ill def remember the ABA as well. I want to become a member as I'm hoping they may have a group down this say so I can meet some local Mums.

Argh I feel angry for you with the midwife!

Maybe you can ask the day midwives if there is another option at night?

Em, has anyone explained to you how to tell whether your baby is getting enough milk? I am constantly amazed at how many new mums leave hospital/midwifery care without anyone explaining this (me included, first time round).
Before your milk comes in, you expect one wet nappy per day of life. So 1 on day 1, 2 on day 2, etc. The poos start as black mec, then change toward orangy/mustardy once the milk starts to come in. After that, you expect at least 2-3 poos (soft, unformed) and 4-5 wet nappies per day. Watching nappies is one of the easiest things to do on your own to gauge how you're going.
It's normal for babies to feed 8-12 times in 24 hours, but not necessarily at regular intervals. And it's normal to feed more often than this on some days, and to have fussy times where they feed very frequently, *especially* when your milk is about to come in.
Baby knows. Baby knows they need to feed frequently. Baby knows the milk is coming.

If anyone ever tells you you're starving your baby again, perhaps ask them how they can tell. Ask for specific evidence that your baby is starving and then consider this against what you can tell with your own eyes with regards to nappy output, growth, appearance, etc of your baby. It's really a terrible thing to say to a new mother and I hope you never have to hear it again.

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we were still awake I caved and called the nightshift midwife (same one as the night before) for some advice on what we can do who told me I was starving him and its not about me and what I want and he needs formula.

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oh you poor thing. i had a night shift midwife tell me i was starving my first bub too, and i still remember how horrible it felt. I think it was the night before my milk came in too, all that sucking was helping the milk to come through, but it was hard to see that with little sleep and a baby that couldn't settle.

is your partner able to hold baby for you for awhile today so you can get some rest?

take care, you sound like you are really doing well.

Oh Em, I am so mad for you! What an awful thing to say to a new mum :( I'm so glad though that you'd had support during the day and had the confidence to tell her no. It makes me sad to think how many mums who wanted to breastfeed may have turned to formula unnecessarily thanks to her "support". I know you were considering making a complaint, please do. Women need support, not to be told they are starving their baby.

MadBs advice is perfect - if you know yourself that your baby is fine, and you know why he's feeding for long periods/not long after the last feed, you'll be fine with telling her that everything's ok and you don't need formula. I also agree with the ABA membership, they were great when I was starting out with DD.

I also found with both DD and DS that they settled easier and slept better during the day than at night. Take advantage and nap when you can!

You're doing a wonderful job xo

EVERYTHING MadB said! I am so angry at that midwife. That's not responsible, that's not helpful and that's not accurate.

Also it is normal for baby to be unsettled between feeds. My DD was up most of 24 hours for the first week, she would nap for only very short bouts of time. The world, only a few days of it, is so overwhelming for them right now! Physically and emotionally. Keep doing what you are doing, as you are doing everything right. If hand expressing is comfortable for you to do, do a little bit after or between each feed to hand-feed her, this will also help your milk come in.

First of all I want to thank you all for the support. It has made a huge difference to me with my confidence levels and I owe you lovely ladies alot

MadB- no one had told me any of that until last night. It is extremely helpful as he has exceeded those nappy guidelines so he must be getting enough. My milk is in now so it's better as I can see it in his mouth when he pulls off so I know he is getting fed something.

I ended up making a complaint about the formula midwife and got a new one assigned to me for last night. I didn't realise how stressed I was about having to deal with her again until I had an absolute meltdown (day 3 blues have well and truly arrived) and had a good talk with a very pro bf midwife who then told me the above facts about nappies etc and was horrified at what had been said and done to me. The formula midwife really has affected my confidence though . He had a bit of trouble latching on this morning and I was already feeling emotional so got stressed and forgot the logic and just thought that I couldn't do this and I'm starving my baby. I think I just got truly unlucky with DS being born at night and having to deal with her in the initial after birth hours. I know I'll get past it though once my emotions are settled as we are doing well and also as I know I have a safe place like BB I can come for advice but how many other mums has she said this to that might not have the support and knowledge? That's why I'm glad I said something as at least now her supervisor is aware of it.

Oh you're fabulous! Making a complaint at 3 days post birth! Well done you. Go mumma, seriously.

Always, always remember the indicators of good milk intake. If you're not sure, call the ABA, or look on the ABA website. If you join up, you'll get a book that includes all this (and much much more, as well). Nappies are one of the first indicators of change. If you're worried, think about the nappies - if they're the same, then clearly he's still getting plenty.

The other useful piece of information is knowing whether your baby is feeding effectively. Some good signs are a good, deep latch and painfree feeds. Seeing your baby swallowing after the letdown - you may not feel the letdown, but you can tell by the change in your baby's feeding and swallowing rhythm that it's happened.

Mothers don't starve their babies. Sometimes they struggle to feed their babies and need help, but they're not starving them. It's a truly unprofessional - and entirely wrong - thing to say.

How are you going Em? :)

To be honest not very well. He just can't get a good latch onto my flat nipples. It was taking us an hour to get him on and that was with assistance so I've switched to feeding him expressed milk with bottles and have brought formula as a back up. I can't get into see a lactation consultant until Wednesday and it was making me really resent him as our time together was being taken up with these feeding issues. I really have tried and I'm feeling terribly guilty about giving up but I have an anxiety disorder so I need to try and look after myself mentally as well. I'm hoping it won't be too late by Wednesday to start again if i keep pumping but I don't know if I will be able to keep up as he is having 100ml per feed. Please don't judge me for this it has been incredibly stressful and I really didnt like the way it was making me feel about my baby. As it is it has totally ruined my confidence with him and I'm now doubting myself over every aspect.

Hugs Em, the first days and weeks with a baby can be so tough. Hopefully the LC has some answer for you.

Have you tried nipple shields at all?

Keep up skin to skin cuddles, they are good for baby and mum no matter how baby is fed.

take care

Em, you need lots of love and support right now. I hope you have people at home with you helping you out :hug:
Wednesday must seem like a long way away right now. Are there any other LCs you could try to get in sooner with? Have you tried calling the helpline at all - counsellors are always happy to just talk you through how things are and give you support.
Did anybody at the hospital check your baby for tongue tie or other physiological problems that might be affecting his ability to latch?

Thanks Hoti it is appreciated. I just tried him again on the breast and he latched straight on first go so maybe the pumping is helping bring my nipples out or maybe we just fluked it but ill keep trying and keep pumping and we will see where we end up. We tried nipple shields but he won't take them. I'm really hoping once we see the lactation consultant we can continue our feeding but I'm really trying to find peace with the fact he may end up being a formula fed baby.

MadB- I have DH's cousins staying with us. Last night she fed him the ebm so I could sleep as I was exhausted and suffering from bad baby blues so I definitely have the support. No one has checked him out but I can see he doesn't have the normal tongue tie but the LC said it sounds like he may have a posterior tongue tie as he really struggles to get his tongue under my nipple. I have tried hard to get into a LC sooner but everyone is fully booked. As it is the only way I got an appt with this LC is because the child health nurse did a deal with her to help me out. I have called the ABA a few times but I really need someone to be able to see what is going on.

I know the feeling Em where it feels like bfing is consuming everything. You're right, you need to keep yourself in a mentally good place too.

That's great he had a good latch this last time! I had so many bfing issues. In the end I used an advent nipple shield that had a cut out for nose and chin so they are practically all on your breast. These worked great for dd. She ended up feeding to 15 months on the shields! Maybe see if they work?

Also does your hospital have a post natal nurse you can see? I was able to get into my hospitals one and that tied me over till the LC was free.

:hug:

Yes, you're right, you do need to see someone in person.
You're doing such a great job persevering and still reaching out to people for help. It will be worthwhile. Take care :hug:

Em you are doing a great job! It is really hard to get the hang of breastfeeding in the early weeks even without the unjust pressure of bad midwives and anxiety. You are not alone in feeling this this. I was exactly the same. Hang onto the memory of the good latch your clever little baby learned today. I'd give nipple shields a go too if it is flat nipples and / or if you are still experiencing pain. Lots of the girls here have used them for similar reasons with great success.

Keep up the great work. I love that you haven't given up and are expressing for your beautiful boy until you get some answers. SIL's little girl had a tiny tongue tie too but they stopped BFing before it was diagnosed... I think she wishes they'd a)known and b) persisted until they knew, itms.

Glad you're also getting some support too so that you can look after yourself too.