Agnostic mums and dads of children at school- I am after some advice!!

Hi there ladies and gents of the agnostic/athiest beleif..... (and anyone else interested in reading this :))

So... my dear sweet little DS has started primary school this year. And he came home the other day and asked me did I know that God made everything??????????????????????????????? (Except houses- people make them :) ) And that he made night and day???????

Now I am not silly- I knew this was going to happen, I had my doubts about school based religion and I know the simple answer is to pull him out of all religious classes... but that's not entirely what I want.. I want him to learn that there are many ideas out there that people believe in and I want his mind open to all forms of religious belief, but not to be taught that one answer or series of beliefs is the absolute truth. I know that I am not going to get this at a public school with out changing the entire curriculum (I have thought about this and it seems quite a big job) so any tips or ideas about what to do would be great!!!!

He is also in a very small school- and I asked him if during God lessons if anyone from his class isn't there for those lessons and he says no everyone is there, so I don't want to make him the odd one out and exclude him solely on my beliefs (which in itself goes against my beliefs)

So far in his life I have filled his little head with scientific facts- we know that there is night and day because the earth spins and rotates around the sun- and when it is dark here it is day some where else. We have talked about evolution and the fact that the world has seen many species of plants and animals come and go and change (he watches the walking with monsters/walking with dinosaurs series almost every night) and that people came from monkeys.

He knows I don't believe in God, and so far that's ok, he tells me he does believe in God- and so far that's ok with me ( i am thinking it is still on par with Santa and zombies so we can work on that later)- but the day he comes home and tells me I am going to hell for not believing we will have a problem!!! He loves the Egyptians so I mentioned to him that they didn't believe in just one god- but many, and so did a lot of other people- and he said that they must have been silly!!!

So ok, after much rambling, my big question is, how much do I let him learn?? Where do I step in?? Do I use it as helpful stepping stones for conversations?? Do I tell him what he is learning is wrong?????? My biggest worry is that the line get's confused for him. He goes to school to learn FACTS. To learn how to read and write and how to add and subtract. I don't want him to think the religious stuff is truth and at the same time I don't him to then question EVERYTHING a teacher teaches him because I am teaching him to question the religious stuff. And he is 5.. am I just projecting my issues on to him??????? Should I just go with the flow and wait for him to grow up a little bit before I pressure him about such things?? How have other agnostic parents dealt with this?????

Thank you for listening with open minds :)

It's a hard one. My kids came home saying the same thing when they first started school. I pretty much told them that that is what some people believe and it's up to them whether they want to believe it or not. My grandmother was very religious and they knew that we didn't believe in all the things she believed in so I guess that made it easier for them to understand.

Just reflecting on my own experience I remember being told all that stuff at school and I thought it was true for a while... in much the same way I thought Santa was real too. Once I worked out they were just stories I wasn't too phased and my parents helped support that understanding of "some people believe that, other people don't". By the time I was about 9 I got tired of being told this stuff like it was fact, rather than some people's idea and I asked to pull out religious classes myself. That started a chain of events in my school where a bunch of children stopped doing the class and then eventually our school set up a 'religions of the world' class for us to learn about various religions and I really enjoyed that.

I would just answer those sort of statements with something like "Sure, some people believe that" and don't stress over it too much for now.

Our dd doesn't attend the religious classes but she does here the kids talking about it after the classes. She has a logical scientific mind and questions how god could make clouds when it's precipitation (her words to us) and rain and sun that makes rainbows, we explain that different people have different beliefs and that's ok and it's up to her what she chooses to believe in. We talk openly about different religions and would let her do the classes if all religions were covered but it's not the case at our school.

Mine aren't school aged yet, but we are agnostic, and plan on telling our children that some people choose to believe in religion, others don't, and that to me, the bible etc are a collection of stories about morals and values, the same as a fable or fairytale, and if they choose to believe it, that's totally okay. Some people do, some people don't.

Where is he at school where he is having dedicated RE lessons in first year school?

TBH, given your reaction, I would pull him out of the classes. I am not Christian, nor am I agnostic though I do not follow a monotheistic religion, and my children go to a public school, and they have never even come close to having an RE lesson or anything that could be construed as one. This baffles me. I didn't even do RE at primary school until Grade 3 - and there were many people who opted out.

I digress, Explaining the concepts of God and religion are not so black and white as "some people do and some people don't" at this age. They ask all kinds of questions in an effort to understand an abstract concept like "church" or "god" or even what the Bible actually is. So it is really hard to address these issues in a manner they can grasp.
I do think though that you personally have quite an issue with the conviction with which he is being taught - Religious Education class should not be confused with Religious Instruction - which is what this sounds like. And 5 and 6 year olds and really too young to be looking at the vast array of religions out there.

My children would not be participating in a Christian Instruction class at this age, for any reason.

Liebs came home last year asking me who would win in a fight, Jesus or Vishnu.

RE in his school is "this is X faith, they believe this, let's visit their place of worship", but even so, children think all they learn from an adult is truth.

I explained different beliefs, still it's confusing to a young child. "Why don't people just believe the truth and only teach that?". Uh, yeah. I teach science so I do. Life is easier. Next topic now.

Thanks ladies!! So far I am dealing with it by the "some beleive this.. and some that" thing, but limeslice i think you are right- the way he is coming home and talking it is more like instruction than education. He is in a composite K/1/2 class so maybe that is why he is starting earlier????

I was a bit the same as you meow.. but i continued to go to the classes so i could stir up discussion lol (who me???!!!) I would much rather religion was taught as an open discussion like that!!

I think I will leave him there for now, and keep harping on about science that we have already discussed and talked about and keep reminding him that lots of people beleive different things :) and hope he will come to his own conclusions.

Thank you everyone!! :)

In my experience, scripture classes are pretty benign in terms of ramming the whole religion thing down their throats, but they do focus on the theory of creation which I always thought was naive because kids are smarter than that. Unless they have been raised to only accept the word of God and creation as the truth and live their lives fully immersed in religious education, then they are going to have questions because it will naturally not make sense to them. We've dealt with it at that age by explaining that people believe in different things and that it's OK to think differently and believe in different things. I DO believe that it's pretty straightforward at this age to explain it pretty simply and then let their questions guide your responses. If they ask questions on a deeper level, then they are probably able to digest a most complicated answer. Despite me being an atheist and DH probably being agnostic if I had to actually label what he is, we made the decision for our kids to attend scripture classes (at a public school) They are only once a fortnight anyway and they are really very innocent. We have to stay in our class while they teach them and I don't have any problems with what they are teaching. It's mostly stuff about creation and then morals etc and I don't have a problem with that. Over the years it has opened some really good dialogue with the kids about different religions and beliefs and why people believe what they do. DS1 was the kid who would always ask the curly questions during the lesson and challenge their ideas (evolution was a particular fave of his) but DD's 1 and 2 and DS2 are happy with the status quo. I don't actively set out to dismiss religion but I will answer their questions truthfully.

I opted my DS out of SRI when he was in public school because I didn't know what was going to get taught by any one volunteer (and having had both an evangelical and Catholic upbringing, I know what kind of random comes out of the evangelicals!!). I started talking to him about how there are people who believe different things around the world, because I knew that my mother would start proselytising to him as soon as she could and wanted him to have a bit of a foundation at home about diversity and respectfully understanding that some people choose stories to understand their world and some people incorporate a bit of both into their world view.
He now goes to a Catholic school since we moved area and that was a conscious decision on my part. I feel far more comfortable with him learning about the Christian God-view of the world in this environment than in the SRI model, and it's a framework I'm very familiar with so I can help him navigate it a lot better. His own teachers are teaching it to him so I can get answers and ask questions directly to someone with a recognised qualification, rather than those volunteers who are not bound by teaching ethics or by any kind of pedagogy outside of their own church's requirements.
I talk to my kids about other religions, and will be making a conscious effort to keep doing this. Not because I believe 'they can choose when they're older', because I'm not raising them to think they even have to have a choice on the radar, but because they will come across people who have all sorts of beliefs and I want them to be understanding and accepting of that (unlike my DP, who is quite intolerant about it).
I had an RE teacher at school (he's now a comic...go figure!) who was happy to tell us that he thought it ok to think of the Bible as allegory, as stories representing knowledge of the world, rather than facts about how the world came to be. I tell my kids that many religions' stories of how the world was made are very similar in theme.
For my own part, I see more value in kids being taught about Aboriginal Dreamtime than be fed Christianity via SRI, in public schools.

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I want him to learn that there are many ideas out there that people believe in and I want his mind open to all forms of religious belief, but not to be taught that one answer or series of beliefs is the absolute truth.

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You might have trouble then...

RE in schools is either taught by the class teacher (which is what is sounds like you're saying happens at your school?) or is taught by volunteers, who are generally people from the churches in your local community. In any event, it is most likely being taught by someone who believes it is true - to the exclusion of other beliefs. This will happen no matter what religion they are sharing about, and most who are followers of a particular religion unsurprisingly believe that they are right and others are wrong - in the same way that you believe that there are many correct belief systems, and those who believe in only one (or none) are wrong.

And you can no more be asked to teach something you don't believe in, than you can expect those teachers (or that school) to teach something they believe to be incorrect.

You *possibly* would have someone who includes the message that different people believe different things, but the number of people who believe that there are different correct answers is, IMHO pretty limited. No matter what a person's beliefs are about how we got here and why, they are likely to think that they are right and others are wrong - no matter whether they're Christian, Buddhist, atheist or agnostic ...

You can change schools to one which doesn't include religious studies in their curriculum (though depending on availability of volunteers, one who doesn't have them this year may have them next year), you can exclude him from the class (which I understand from your post you do not wish to do - but at Primary School there was one girl who didn't do them in my class, and it really wasn't a big deal... it was just a fact - she didn't do them, no positive or negative value attributed to her absence) or you can let him do them, and then decide what you're going to at home.

Which seems to be where you're at now :)

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he tells me he does believe in God- and so far that's ok with me ( i am thinking it is still on par with Santa and zombies so we can work on that later)

... I don't want him to think the religious stuff is truth

... Should I just go with the flow and wait for him to grow up a little bit before I pressure him about such things??

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So from this, it sounds like at the moment (and at a young age) he has decided that he does believe in God, but you're not happy about it, and you intend to "work on that later" so that he ends up with the same belief system that you have arrived at.

And I think the big question there is whether you want him to arrive at his own decision, or whether you just want him to believe the same things you do.

If you want him to believe the same things you believe, you'd do what plenty of other parents with religious beliefs do - raise your child knowing what you believe and why, and with plenty of room for discussion. If you want him to make up his own mind, raise your child knowing what you believe and why, and with plenty of room for discussion, and also with information about what other people believe, and why, and with even more room for discussion!

But keep in mind that just as you perhaps don't believe what your parents believed - and you might have started forming your own opinions in your childhood - your child might, too.

If it's a public school it's not supposed to be taught as if it's the only truth because that's proselytising and the kids are supposed to be protected from that. At least under Victorian legislation. That's why ACCESS Ministries is under fire, and the Minister for Education, who hasn't done enough to crack down on breaches of that legislation.
Starbright, google FIRIS to explore the issues of teaching SRI in public schools (which is NOT done by their normal classroom teachers and is NOT part of the curriculum in any way, shape or form) and why 'opting out' is discriminatory against children who don't do the classes.
I'm sure a lot of Christians wouldn't be so complacent about the appropriateness or otherwise of SRI in public schools if a Muslim or Sikh group got enough money together to train volunteers ;) For now, they are happy because it's their religion privileged by access to our kids in public schools, and only a handful of other schools in Vic get a non-Christian religion for SRI.
Again, I just reiterate to my DS how the Catholic POV is just one way of understanding the world. He enjoys the rituals of his new education system, and he feels he is part of a community already and that's how I felt going to Catholic school (my mum hated me enjoying choir participation at Mass!), where the evangelists had a great time telling me my dad was going to hell for being Catholic - no prizes for guessing who I'd rather has access to my children :p

when i read your post, i wondered whether he was receiving the info only in the re class or whether the classroom teacher was also reinforcing this view. If it is coming from his class teacher, then the info will carry more weight than if it is given by someone he sees half an hour a week.

My grade one teacher was pretty passionate about us believing in magic. She told us some amazing stories of the times she witnessed elves and I beleived her for years. It did carry a fair bit of weight because she was my teacher but eventually I think if you're not being fed that dogma in your life all the time like people are fed religion then you work it out ;)

If it's coming from his class teacher you need to let the principal know!
At the moment it would be convenient for me to let my DS believe that he has to answer to some imagining of a higher, male being for the things he has done wrong (he's 7 and he has well and truly hit that stage of manipulating the truth!)... and he says he likes doing that, which is fine. I still tell him that if he's doing something wrong he needs to make it right here in real time with the real people it affects. I'm choosing to tell him that he doesn't have to believe it's a 'sin', because I don't want him to carry shame around with him. I've been teaching him about restoration of fairness all his life, I'm not game to have it all ruined now with superstition about sinfulness ;) I may as well also teach him to be critical of what he's taught, while we're at it - training them to think about what's being taught instead of just regurgitating it will be valuable, especially if you're not religious at home.

I have opted my girls OUT of SRI (Special Religious Instruction). This is for many reasons, such as the separation of state and religion, that it is preaching one faith (and one form of that faith), it is presented by volunteers, who whilst passionate, have had very little training in most cases (I know of one is a primary teacher, the rest no). I also opt them out, to send the message that is not OK in public schools.

It is a very complicated issue. Whilst there have been no issues as the girls school, I have read too many horror stories about what can get taught and some of the behaviors from other students to those that are opted out. I am finding as the years go on more kids are being opted out, so whilst they start out just one or two, that increases. Often is just takes the one parent standing up and going NO, that other parents get the courage to stand up and also opt their children out.

We had to opt in at my DD's school.

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If it's coming from his class teacher you need to let the principal know!
At the moment it would be convenient for me to let my DS believe that he has to answer to some imagining of a higher, male being for the things he has done wrong (he's 7 and he has well and truly hit that stage of manipulating the truth!)... and he says he likes doing that, which is fine. I still tell him that if he's doing something wrong he needs to make it right here in real time with the real people it affects. I'm choosing to tell him that he doesn't have to believe it's a 'sin', because I don't want him to carry shame around with him. I've been teaching him about restoration of fairness all his life, I'm not game to have it all ruined now with superstition about sinfulness ;) I may as well also teach him to be critical of what he's taught, while we're at it - training them to think about what's being taught instead of just regurgitating it will be valuable, especially if you're not religious at home.

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Hmmm, that's not Christianity. What about forgiveness, love and acceptance? That's what Jesus taught, even if it isn't followed.

Fear of sin was supposed to go with Jesus' death. Although you are still supposed to say sorry to people.

The little-known side of Christianity, as many don't practice that.

My point being more that it's the randomness of the fervour/interpretative creativity of the evangelist in question. The ACCESS Ministries program that is delivered in schools is still delivered by volunteers who are known to add their own bits and stray from the program. It would be difficult to keep track of how it's going here from the UK, but there have been many breaches - the latest one where kids in one Victorian school were given a booklet on how girls make boys think and do bad things by the way they dress, in place of the standard bible they usually give out. Since that incident was publicised ACCESS released a statement of how their program is educationally sound and uses curriculum, which was quite a load of made up bollocks in itself and many schools retracted the notice after it was published in newsletters.
The thing is, allowing such privileged access of Christianity in our public schools seems like a great idea to many Christians, but really it undermines the freedom of ALL religions to be free from religion in schools. There are, in fact, many Christian parents who support FIRIS' work and don't agree with the SRI program. If you think about it hard enough you'll start to see the implications for everyone's freedoms. The arguments used by ACCESS and many right-wing Christians lack all credibility (invoking the idea that kids can't understand history and literature without being indoctrinated into Christianity...pfft). Christianity is not the cultural zero, and kids don't need to be taught it in order to appreciate that people around them might have beliefs that don't fit in with theirs.
There are 'little known sides' to all religions, in fact, and aspects of various religions can be taught in social science or history classes, not by unqualified volunteers who undermine the rest of the curriculum.
That's all an aside to the OP, but relevant, too.
Meanwhile, I came from that dual background and was very hurt by it - imagine the confusion in a child who is told their parents are going to hell for not even being Christians. It happens, I have friends who have had this come into their home after SRI lessons.

I have a couple of things to mention here.
Firstly at schools I have taught in some teachers have taught RI and taken a group of students as they have been trained in their religion and are comfortable teaching it. In all other instances with volunteers there is always a teacher in the room while the volunteers are taking the group. The volunteers are not on "free rein" while teaching about a religion.
It is a tricky path for teachers however as parents have agreed for their kids to be in a class...........hard to judge if what's being taught is accurate for the religion without the personal training (particularly for teachers like me who have not been to church much and have one atheist parent!).
I have supervised a lot of these classes and have to say I found the Catholic Nuns the best at teaching stories of the bible clearly. Also once there was a really cool Rabbi who spoke at a good level for the kids.
I have also supervised the "non-religious" groups at this time......to me it seems such a shame to waste this time that could be used to learn about a variety of religions. Most children in most schools I've been to spend the 1/2 hour doing puzzles or colouring. With such a lot to fit in it just seems a waste of precious time in school.
Secondly I remember when we were kids mum let us choose a different religion to attend each term. I reckon we got a pretty good understanding of the religious stories this way.
Lastly (and I reckon this is funny) my cousins child had a really scientific mind which was strongly encouraged by his atheist dad and agnostic mum. He too was allowed to attend whichever group interested him each term...........he used to ask tricky questions to the volunteers like "how could god build the world in 7 days as even a tree takes longer than that to grow.......and how did god make night and day, was it because he made the world spin? How did god fit EVERY species on the ark and stop them eating each other and pack enough food for them all?"
All these were excellent questions and he got kicked out of two groups for being "disruptive!!!!!"

Thanks everyone for the input!!

Peanutter- Thank you- you are spot on- I am already trying to influence him to my own beliefs and not allowing him to find his own path!! But I guess I see my path as an open one- not one influenced by any one particular belief, which is what I would like him to follow until he is old enough to make an informed choice. (which at 33 I have come to conclusion myself that I can't possibly pick one of the many in case it is wrong)- So in such as to not be told one version as the 100% truth. The volunteers are not starting their lessons with "We believe.." they are telling the kids "This is true" which is where my issue lies.

I will look into more of the legislation regarding the SRI in public schools, and also maybe talk to the principal about doing one religion for one term, and then possibly introducing another religion in another term kind of thing. (although we are in a very small town and I suspect there is only one prominent group who are willing to come and do the classes) It isn't the teacher teaching the classes- it is volunteers as mentioned. They have been doing it in this particular school for the last 30 years. I think most parents are ok to go with the flow and it doesn't impact their lives either way- they either do have some kind belief and don't practice or they just arn't too fussed with the whole thing (ignorance/denial etc) I just tend to be someone who feels quite strongly about the entire world religion fiasco and I am probably projecting too much of that onto my 5 year old boy and what he learns for half an hour once a week at school. (not like me at all :p)

Thanks everyone for the input and the advice! I think I might be writing some letters though... I think now is the time for change, not just for my little town primary school- but for SRI as a whole :)