Jewish perspective on breastfeeding...

Hi everyone,

Came across this on a Jewish forum, thought it was interesting (feel free to skip over if it doesn't interest you!)

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The Talmudic (about 2000 years old) recommended duration for breastfeeding is 24 months, although some authorities, such as Rabbi Yehoshua, extend this period up to 4 to 5 years. If the infant is weaned before 2 years there is concern that this will lead to an undue risk to the infant’s health.

I managed to find it in the Rambam, Hilchos Ishus, Chapter 12; halacho 13:

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(Even) If she made a vow not to nurse her son, she is forced to do so until he is 24 months old, whether male or female.

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It does appear in the gemorra (2000 years old approx.) and the Shulcan Aruch (around 500 years old) too, but I can't find it. It appears with the connection of a woman's obligations to her husband. (While I was searching I also discovered the interesting fact that a woman with twins is only obligated to nurse one of them and her husband has to hire a wet-nurse for the other!)

Today many rabbi's hold that the situation is different because of the existence of formula etc. But I feel that we should certainly understand it as what the Torah thinks is the best, even if other options are allowed. We are doing the ultimate chessed ~ charity (well, i can't think of a good english translation for the word... charity isn't quite right, more a good thing you can do to help others) for our child every time we nurse, because it is chessed that no-one else can do for him.

You could actually look at it the other way around, that those who didn't nurse in the time of the Torah/ talmud - at least their child usually nursed from another woman with the corresponding benefits, whereas today they are weaned onto formula and lose so many of the health benefits.

Here are some more sources:

• The Mishna (Ketubot 59b) instructs us that breastfeeding her baby is a woman’s obligation toward her husband, *so much so that other household functions take lower priority during this time.

• According to the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 81:7) a child may nurse, if healthy, until four years old; a sickly or weak child, until five years old.

• Most sources point towards 24 months as the accepted minimum length of the breastfeeding relationship. Even the most lenient of authorities points to the age when a baby has six to eight teeth. This is estimated to be between the ages of ten and sixteen months.

• The Talmud (Yerushalmi, Brochot 68a) states that a Jew should be involved in Torah every hour of the day just as a baby nurses every hour of the day. Also, a baby should be allowed to nurse as often as he desires. “Even if he nurses all day long it will not harm him” (Tosefta, Sotah 4:1).

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Just thought it was interesting as the recommendations are similar to the WHO, and they were written around 2000 years ago!

Yael

Its Sunni in Islam to feed for 2 yrs as well Yael :) There are a lot of similarities when you look for them.

Yeah, i've since a few things on Islam that are similar to Judaism... see, and people just try to find the differences!

Very interesting! I think it's fascinating that the further we go from the laws in the - well, the holy books of the Abrahamic religions, for lack of a better word (as many of the laws are the same in all the holy books), the worse society becomes... who cares how old the rules are, they're here for our benefit and they work!

Just a quick question -

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Today many rabbi's hold that the situation is different because of the existence of formula etc.

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Does this mean that many rabbis think that it's OK to eat any sort of meat, because it can be refrigerated now? As I understand it, many of the food laws were to prevent nasty illnesses because of rotting food. Not to mean any disrespect, just that do we throw out laws just because of new technologies and things? (I know I really shouldn't ask that question, coming from an Anglican background and knowing the rubbish some of our leaders come out with.)

very interesting - a message from long ago applies today - is it in the bible ?
thanks for sharing and I wonder if they had twins did they hire wet nurses or not?

There isn't anything I could find in the Bible about BFing - it's just assumed it is done and women seem to have lighter responsibilities whilst BFing, but there are very few mentions of anything like that.

The Old Testament finishes about 2500 years ago - before the writings Yael mentioned - and the New Testament is not so much about laws. I'll check more tonight, but nothing really springs to mind - the only thing I could think of was in Samuel, where Hannah was going to wean her son before dedicating him to the Lord, but no mention of how long that took.

thanks Ryn -I wondered about that - Hannah was my inspiration for naming my Samuel

Wow -that's interesting! I love this bit

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so much so that other household functions take lower priority during this time.

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Woohoo! 4-5 years off housework! yay! LOL.

I agree that laws shouldn't change just coz of modern day technologies or even modern day thinking. It's obviously not working - look around!

It's sad that something as natural as breastfeeding is something we read about in old books and history :( I want to b/f until about 2 - not sure I'm comfy with doing it longer than that, but I'm worried that ttc'ing #2 might cut it short :( Maybe I should wait, so that Tallon gets a good 2 yrs of b/fing. *sigh* so much to think about. heh.

Very interesting,

It really makes you wonder when they had it right over 2000 years ago and we cant manage it today. I wonder if you can find anything in the bible about it, maybe I'll have a look. The Catholic/Orthodox bible has an extra five books in the Old Testament that the others dont use, maybe there is something in one of them, I doubt there would be anything in the New Testament. There are bound to be similarities between Judaism, Islam and Christianity, they are the three monotheistic religions (one God) and share the same History. They all follow the God of Abraham.

Breastfeeding probably went without saying back then. Be it the natural mother or a wetnurse. I wonder why there were even laws?

All of Judaism is dictated my Jewish Law, called Halacha.

Everything from dietry laws, the sabbath etc.,(even if it all seems obvious, it is still there to prevent any confusion and to spell out what you do in slightly different circumstances (twins etc, mother sick etc), it is all written down in either the five books of the Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy), and the oral Torah, which used the be trasnmitted orally throughout the generation (this is normally the explanation on the 613 laws found in the Torah, rather than just the sentance), but was written down in a later stage to become to Talmud and Gemorrah (which i quoted above).

I do have to point out that i don't know how this applies today - i have never asked my Rabbi if we still hold that the law remains as such nowadays. I just thought it was interesting that traditionally this is what was practised.

But like you says Lix, it went without saying - first mother, and then wet nurse (which i think is the order today from the WHO & ABA?)

Pholmes - i don't know about what is written in the Christian bible, i don't study it, but maybe google it and see. The only difference is that Judaism (and i think Islam, correct me if i''m wrong), actually have a let of religious laws which spell out what to do, whereas Christianity doesn't, so it might not be written down as such. I don't think you actually find this law as one of the 613 in the 5 books of the bible, it will probably have been extrapolated from one and then expanded upon in the oral laws, so if you actually went reading through the bible, i wouldn't expect to see it there (i could be wrong, would need to go and read up myself!)

My understanding is that the Christian bible states the Mosaic Law, but this law was superceded when Jesus arrived. But the Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, so are still under the Mosaic Law? Is this the same thing?

That's true about the 'obvious' being stated in law. Like the disposal of excrement outside the camp - we know it as obvious today, but back then, they probably didn't appreciate the health benefits that we understand now with modern science etc.

Liz - yes, we follow Mosaic Law as such, we call it Torah Law, of which there are 613 in the bible. On top of that there are also Rabbinic Laws, which are explained in the Oral Law (not sure how many exta there are).

You can't have one without the other, you must keep both Torah and Rabbinic laws. But for example, one of the 613 is "keep the sabbath" but if you look in the oral law (now written down), there are pages and pages of discussions about what this means, and various other laws. For examples, there are 49 categories of 'work' i can't do on the sabbath, but within those 49 there are lots and lots of things that you don't do - so it ends up being a lot more than just the 613.

Does that make sense? Its a bit confusing i guess at first. :)

Shannon, i'm not sure about that. I copied it off another forum, and that sentance didn't quite make grammatical sense.

After work i will try and look up the original source and write down what it says about it.

It might be because if possibly is found in the section about womens obligation to husbands etc (don't worry, there is a big long list of husbands responsibilities to their wives also... for example, in Jewish law you can divorce your husband if he isn't having relations with you etc.. its the womens choice when to have, not the mans (and that is still the law today!).

But like i said, i'm not sure about that sentance, and will try and look it up.

Shannon, I would think it means obligation to her family through her husband. Like she is accountable to him and he is accountable to her for their duties to each other and the family unit as a whole. Roles were much more defined in those days and marriages were enetred into with strict guidelines of each spouses duties.

Yael, yes another similarity. We do have a Law system where every aspect of life is represented. Like the 10 Commandments but much more in depth. This is based on the Quran as well as Hadith, which are stories and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad related down through the times by reputable sources. I make sure that I try to follow the laws of the Quran first, Hadith second. They say that Jesus' Miracles were his power to heal and Muhammads Miracle was the Quran. It 'completes' the religion.

Sorry Yael, I was writing mine when you posted:)

I think Natalie wrote it very well!

I think we look at a lot of these things in a defensive femanist way, when they aren't meant to denigrade either party, just to define roles so there is peace in the home.

Natalie - it sounds like Judaism & Islam are similar in the laws... People often ask me if i find it restrictive/oppresive etc, but i actually like it. I know clearly what to do and what is expected of me, i find it gives my life more structure than leaving up to myself to define what is right & wrong.

Yael, I actually make my husband prove everything to me, lol. I think cultural traditions and religious law sometimes get mixed up unless you are very knowledgable. We are not very religious, but I would like to be because I think people with a lot of faith have an inner peace and calm to draw on. I often find myself at a loss and when I remember that everything is controlled by God I actually feel calm wash over me. It's like a relief to have the burden lifted.

I agree completely that defining roles makes for a happier and less volatile marriage. I think the high divorce rate reflects this. Roles, whatever they are, should be clearly established before people get married. I suppose we are just lucky that our roles are defined for us. Though I must say, my DH and I can read a verse or a law and come away with totally different interpretations of it, lol.

Hi Yael,

I think your right re the bible not having anything about breastfeeding. I am Catholic and aside from the commandments we have our own set fo rules as well. The main ones are contained in the Catholic Catechism and others have been delivered in Papal Encyclicals over time. I dont think they are as prescriptive about things like diet etc. They contain things about family and religious obligations, like the forbidding of re marriage or more than one marriage and the use of contraception etc, some people dont follow them as they believe they are too old fashined etc. They do promote good family values. I cant remember them ever mentioning anything about breastfeeding.

I love defining roles as well! Which is part of the reason I vowed to obey my husband when we married - the Bible states wives should obey their husbands, but that husbands should give everything for their wives. When two people think of the other more than themselves you usually get a happy couple!

Shannon, it's an obligation to the husband because it's the wife's role to give the husband healthy children - yes, it's also good for her and the children, but providing healthy children is an obligation to your husband. I don't think any man would disown his wife for not having a healthy child, but some practices for "deformed" babies were quite cruel.

I do remember something about an Italian Catholic divorcing her husband because of lack of relations... he was "denying her the right to have a baby" and she was granted the divorce. I remember that because for a Catholic to get a divorce it has to be OK'd by the laws in the Bible and is a big thing, also because I was really mad at DH at the time and e-mailed it to him as a bit of a threat, but can't find it now.

Don't worry Natalie, my DH tells me something, and i'm like "yeah, but show me the source"... i also don't just listen to people tell me what they think they law is. I like sources...DH spent 3 years learning Torah full time overseas, but that is nothing compared to some people. People easily spend 10-15 (even 50) years studying full time, and still don’t know nearly everything :)

But i agree, even when you have them, people can interpret them very differently... In Judaism we say there are 600,000 different paths to interpret the Torah. You can't just decide for yourself, you have to have a Rabbi who follows a particular path, but thats why within Judaism people do different things, even though they are all following Torah through their Rabbi's.

We are orthodox, so I cover my hair & other laws of modesty, keep Shabbat completely, keep kosher all that kind of things. Its like you say, i like that i have my faith to draw on when things aren't easy. But i wasn't bought up religious, so its something that i have come to after a lot of searching, and therefore i know it's something i truely believe in, not an excuse when things are hard.

I 100% agree with you about divorce rates and not having roles and common focus' defined! Just look at the rates in USA 50% i think, or perhaps greater now, whereas within orthodox Judaism i think its more around 3-4%.

Kosher = Jewish dietry laws. We don't eat:

1) milk and meat together, so we have seperate dishes and cooking utensils (and dishwashers) for when we have meat meals and when i make anything with milk, cheese and a milk derivative. I also wait 6 hours after eating meat before i eat milk (no dairy icecream after a burger).

2) We don't eat certain foods:
-meats like pork (anything that doesn't chew its cuds and has split hoofs),
- no seafood other than some types of fish (anything that has scales & fins)
- no insects (certain food colourings & preseratives) and we wash & check all our veggies & fruit.

Because we want to make sure that what we are buying doesn't have anything in it that we can't eat in eat, normally you buy food that has a special stamp to say it was supervised by a rabbi (you will see similar stamps on food for Halal). There is also a list where they contact the companies and ask them for every single ingredient to work out whether it is kosher or not, but this is in some ways a lower level of kosher as there is a lot of potential for things to go wrong and slip in the food. We only buy food that has the stamp on it, and even then only from certain rabbi's. We buy some from a big rabbi in Melbourne, but a lot of kosher food is imported from England, USA & Israel. We will only eat in kosher restarants.

A lot of non Jewish people perceive it as cleaner & healthier and eat kosher only also. In fact, in the USA kosher market, non-Jewish kosher eaters are the biggest growth area. Vegeterians also like it as all food is clearly labelled if it has any meat or deriviates, milk or in vegan (although be careful about this, because kosher pareve doesn't acutally mean vegan, it means no meat or milk, but can contain fish which isn't considered a meat).

Shabbat - Jewish Sabbath. Occurs from Sunset on Friday to Dark on Saturday night (around 25hours). We don't do various activities, mainly using electricity, and cooking food. You turn on the lights (or put on a timer) what you will need, and all food is made beforehand. You don't drive you car, use a phone, watch TV (if you own one anyway).... I know we sound kinda Amish, but you can live a very normal day. Its a big time for family & friends and most people have big meals on Friday night and Saturday lunch. And for going to synagogue, although my husband goes 3 times a day every day, the service on Saturday morning is longer & you do more stuff (read the Torah etc). Women also go, its just hard with the babies, but i normally walk down for the end and they also have a buffet with lots and lots of little nibbles and great cakes. Then people go home for their big meal.

Covering Hair - in Judaism this is only something you do once you get married. There are many reasons for it, a big long to go into now, but i hope my daughter will cover her hair once she gets married. Everybody does what they are comfortable with and what they are ready for, but according to Jewish law you should cover your hair if married, just like you should eat kosher.

HTH.

Yael, i'm interested in your opinion on something. I am Jewish, my parents are Reform and I grew up going to Cheder and to Synagogue on holidays etc. I chose not to have a Bat Mitzvah. I will always think of myself as being Jewish but more in a way of being part of a tribe (for want of a better word) of people then as a religion. As far as faith is concerened i'm not sure what I beleive but I will always think of myself as being Jewish - does that make sense?

What I mean is do you think that there is such a thing as a non-practising Jew? I want my children to go to Cheder and I would love for them to beleive in God but I want them to make their own decisions - at the moment if DS asks me about God I tell him that if he beleives in God then yes, God is real. He hasn't asked me what I think and I hope he doesn't, at least till I know what I think.

I'm not really sure what i'm asking you here, sorry, it's a bit garbled. I guess it has been weighing on my mind recently.

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I know we sound kinda Amish, but you can live a very normal day. Its a big time for family & friends and most people have big meals on Friday night and Saturday lunch.

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I don't think it sounds Amish at all, Yael. We have Ramadan every year and we fast from sunrise until sunset, with nosustenance at all. No food, water, sex, no cigarettes for people who smoke. We are also not supposed to get angry - it is a time of patience. But the Iftar - which is the meal in the evening - is a massive celebration with a feast for all of the family to get together. Even though it's very hard, it's my favourite time of year because I feel good that. Shabbat sounds like that. A time that is set aside for worship or remembrance of God without distractions.

Do you cover your hair completely? I have seen Orthodox men, but can't remember if their wives were covered or not.

I have been meaning to ask you how your eczema is?

Our fast days are exactly the same.

we have 2 major fast (25hours - sunset to dark) with no food, water (one one of them you can smoke, although many rabbi's say it's forbidden to smoke at all), and no marital relations.

One the 4 (5 if you are a firstborn male) minor fasts its dawn until sunset, with the same restrictions except smoking.

I don't mind the minor fasts (although you don't do these if preg or bfeeding or sick), the major ones i on;y get thirsty like 2 hours before the end.

In Judaism you can break almost any law to save a life (no murder, idolatory or adultary though), so if you are sick you are forbidden to fast.

Its souns strange to people, but i find it quite cleansing in a way. Makes you stop thinking about the physical and mundane all the time. A whole month of that would be very cleansing.

In Judaism, i guess its like Islam, different people have different levels of observance. I cover my hair completely, (although a few strands might come out)... I choose to wear a wig (you wouldn't know so much it wasn't my hair unless you looked for it) when i'm outside, some other groups only wear scarfs. Some groups aren't quite at the same level, and will wear a hat with their own hair showing, other women won't cover at all.

I keep my hair covered at all times, only my husband will see it (and Kelly when i was in labour :) ). I wouldn't show my children or other women. Do muslim women cover their hair at homes? Technically you don't have to cover at home, although its advised in case people come to the door etc.

Thank G-d, my ecezma is getting better with my UV therapy! I had a big flare up (smoke from bushfires isn't helping), and my hands didn't get nearly as bad as they normally do! Only 1 golden staph infection :) Not 5!!

Although its all over my eyes, lips, nipples atm, but normally the flare up last around 10 days. I think they are becoming more spaced :) My body ecezma is no where near as bad as my hands, no i'm not having treatment there.. Saw my spec on Tuesday (so annoyed, DH take the day off work to see him and ask him qns as he missed the first appointment, and they put me in with the wrong dermo who had never seen my hands b4 and couldn't say if they were better or not! grrr...)

Thanks for asking!

i'm glad to hear it's getting better.

I don't cover my hair anymore, though Muslim women are supposed to cover in front of all men except their husband, sons, dad, brothers. I really have a lot of respect for women that cover, but I found it so hard to deal with the looks and comments. My best friend covers and says the insults make her stronger, but I'm not that strong. I have been spat on, shoved down stairs at a railway station, abused and ridiculed and it just got too hard. These things have all happened to my friend, too but she just carries on, lol. Do you or your husband get comments or abuse? I had a friend called Ran from Isreal when I was younger and he copped a bit.

Yael thank you for starting this thread... I have really enjoyed reading the exchanges here and the beautiful and harmonious way we (as a group) have been able to share and question each other's faiths.

Yes Kerry, I agree. Now if we could just get the world leaders to follow our example, lol...

I am with you Kerry and Natalie,

Diversity is great, its what gives us character. We really do have more similarities than differences. It is a shame that the people in the right positions cant figure it out.

I just wanted to clarify something Ryn said about the Italian Catholic getting a divorce. They would have been granted an anulment, not a divorce, a divorce is a civil proceeding which is not recognised by the church. If "he was denying her the right to have a baby" then that would be grounds for an anulment. One of the vows Catholics take before God when they marry is that they will accept children freely and willingly as a gift from God, so to deny your spouse that is breaking a marriage vow before God.

Only Rome (the Pope) can grant an anulment and they take a long time to get. An anulment is different to a divorce as it means that technically the marriage never really existed. This would be the case if this vow was not kept. It has absolutely nothing to do with breastfeeding but I am really enjoying reading this thread and learning more about different faiths and cultures.

Natalie - world leaders, mainly men, what are the chances of them "listening" to others and actually hearing what was really said????

You are so right and again I really have enjoyed this thread so much, I'm RC and practising but my parish priest as a child encouraged us to learn about other religions as he said most of the difference between the 'big 3' (not demeaning anyones religion here at all!!!!!) were dogma and tradition as at the crux (no pun intended) we were basically very similar.

Coming at this time of year, hannukah (sp?), ramadan and christmas it has really embraced the meaning of this time of year, at least for me anyway, peace and good will to all!

I feel honoured that you have shared something so personal and precious about yourselves (your faith) so freely and honestly, so yet again Thank You all.

Thanks for the clarification, pholmes - as I'm not a Catholic I wasn't too sure of the exact terminology, except that in the report I read a fair while ago.

I agree with the Natalie and Kerry (and others) - we should be world leaders instead! Oh dear me, what would we do if people started getting on with each other?

Big thanks to Yael for starting this thread, it has been really interesting.

Hey guys,

sorry haven't posted in a while - internet has been down all week... suffering major withdrawl

Anyway, have to run, last night of hannukah tonight - AND - my 2nd wedding aniversary!

Will write more on this topic later

Yael

Channukah Sameach and Happy Anniversay Yael!

Nothing to add - just what a fascinating thread!!! From breatfeeding to comparative religions! :) A great read - thanks ladies! :)