Frozen babies!

I am just wondering if anyone else has had moral or whatever dilemma's about what to do with excess frozen embryos. We have 3 ivf babies already and am having such a hard time letting go of what could possibly be another baby. DH thinks that 3 kids is enough but I just don't know what is the right decision. I don't want to look back and regret not trying. Any thoughts or advice please?!?!?

I am in a somewhat similar situation in that I have one snowbub left and DH is now saying he does not wish to go back for it. After a long journey to have my IVF son, Charlie, I cannot help but feel it is his sibling there waiting for me. DH says we have four children and can't manage anymore, but for me it's far more emotive than that.

I am waiting for DH to be in a more receptive mood to bring it up again. I do think these are things we need to talk to them about, and explain why we feel the way we do.

Good luck with it, Pheonix. This is not an easy decision no matter what.

Pheonix,

I've moved this to the PALTTTC in deference to the LT girls who are still trying.

I second what Sushee said.

It is a choice those of us with "frosties" are faced with. I have nine and plan on using at least one to get a sibling for my son. For us then our family will be complete so the matter of what to do with the remainder will arise. The current plan is to donate them to research but I understand that that isn't for everybody.

It is one of those things where you can't really offer any advice. The best you can do is look thoroughly at all the options and work out what you can live with. In the end, your feeling on things is what should prevail. Of course it is easier if both partners feel the same but this isn't always the case. I hope you and your husband can come to an agreement soon.

I have 2 left too, I am quickly running out of time as storage is 5 yrs!!. I have single transfers and wondering what will I do if the first one takes.
I dont want to donate medical or to a couple...I guess when I can see what a frozen embie turned into I have to wonder
Bec

I agree that this is a very difficult issue.

My husband and I have one frozen embryo, and we plan to use it to try for a second baby, so unless we undergo another stim cycle we won't have any excess. But all the same, I find I think about it alot, it's seems like such an incredible position that we find ourselves in, with no easy answers at all and no one who can possibly say what is the 'best' thing to do.

I hope you can reach a decision together in time.

Thanks everyone, i really appreciate your input. It feels like such a hard decision sometimes and so easy at other times.....I guess whatever your gut feeling tells you is the best decision.

This is something that DH and I are talking about even though we haven't started yet.

Is the 5 years storage a global thing, or is that just for your specific clinic, Bec?

I think what really worries me is ending up with some enormous number of embryos left when we have finished our family. I'd like to think I could donate them to another couple, but I understand that when we aren't actually in the situation it's difficult to make a decision. I suspect that having my own children would change my perspective quite completely, and with my health issues I wonder if anyone would actually want any embryos that we weren't going to use.

I guess this is something that I would need to discuss with my clinic - if we end up getting a large number of eggs, is it possible to only have some fertilised, and freeze the remaining eggs, to be thawed and fertilised later if we find we need more embryos? I was chatting about this with a friend, and heard of someone who initially had 30+ eggs harvested, they were all fertilised, and she ended up having 17 embryos left when they had completed their family, and I can't help wondering if it would have been better to say fertilise 5 at a time, freeze the remaining eggs, and wait to see if more embryos are needed. I can imagine that it would be much easier to donate an egg, than it would be to donate an embryo.

Is what I'm thinking even possible?

BW

You can't freeze eggs BW, only embryos I'm afraid. And my clinic has a 10 year holding period, increased from 5 years about 2 years ago. I don't know if it's the same for every clinic though?

Funny this thread got me talking to my DH about our last remaining embryo and, because of how strongly I feel about it, he is now conceded to going back for it eventually, but he won't promise when. I told him I'm almost 37 now and I want it to be before I'm 40, and I am hoping that's what's been agreed upon and he doesn't change his mind again between now and then!

I believe they have managed to freeze ovarian tissue and even have gotten a baby out of it recently but no frozen eggs yet.

Generally, women who have concerns about surplus embryos opt for Gamete Intrafallopian Transfer or GIFT instead of IVF.

which is why GIFT is okay with the Catholic church but IVF isn't :rolleyes: (I'm Catholic BTW)

Hmmm... lots to think about here. Unfortunately for us, GIFT isn't an option as we need ICSI.

BW

Fantastic result Sushee, might do the same tonight and see how i go!!! I've been putting it off knowing what the outcome probably will be but i should just lay it all on the table - you never know!!!

Agreeing with Sushee, Butterfly_warrior unfortunately you can only freeze viable embryos. It's different for every person how many eggs you can retrieve. We got 12 eggs and 10 fertilised and then out of that 10 put 2 back (and got twins!) and then only 2 were viable for freezing.

I actually didn't know there was a time limit to how long embryos can be frozen so i'd better check with our clinic - does anyone know the policy of Sydney IVF?

I just had a discussion with my FS about what to do with frozen embryos and she suggested, if you weren't morally against it, keeping them in the off chance that medical science comes up with a way to use them to assist the children you already have if they ever need it. I guess like to grow a lung or something. She said that because it would be genetically similar it could possible be used like that. Seems so Sci-Fi but I guess thats what everyone thought of IVF when it first came along.

But I suppose that is only useful if you can keep them for an indefinate length of time.

sorry to jump this thread and i know that one day Dh and i will have the same conversation but i just wanted to add:

My DG (thats dearest girlfriend ) has had some eggs frozen as she has been very ill over the last few years and is well on her way back to good health, and thinking to soon use they but is awear that they may not be as healthy after freezing and is awear that they do not freeze as well as embies but she didnt have the sperm at that time.lol

Also im catholic too and my understanding of IVF and the church is that they are not against people doing IVF but thay are against people allowing embies to die such as what we are talking about with frozen (and i tryed to think of better words to make it less emotive, but it is very hard so please i dont mean to offend) also donating them to science is not in their wishes. i guess it just dependson your priest and how he explains it. but they are not against giving life.

I too wonder why they only give us 5 years when 'they' know that the quality would be better 5 years ago than 5 years aheas!!

This is such a hard choise to make and i hope all the best for you.

xx

lou,

my priest was actually very supportive - I think individually most priests empathise with women struggling with infertility - but he too explained it was the dilemma about what to do with excess embryos that was the problem. And with IVF you run the risk of completing your family before tranferring every embryo, so it is considered unnecessary to collect as many eggs as possible and run the risk of having embryos you don't know what to do with. He actually told me that many devout Catholics who have to use IVF to conceive do natural cycles and only collect one egg per cycle!

I wouldn't go so far as doing that but I do believe that my little snowbub is a baby in waiting for me, so I prescribe to that belief anyway!

DH and I spoke about this a lot when we went through our stim cycle.

Essentially our clinic only gave us two options on paper (that we had to sign) for any embryos that we didn't have transferred - to donate them, or to discard them (I HATE that word, but that's the word they used).

After our unsuccessful stim cycle, we had 4 snowbabies remaining. Because of my spiritual beliefs, I'm not at all comfortable with the discarding option. And DH was uncomfortable with the donating option.
So we have decided that we will have all our embryos transferred, and leave the size of our family up to God to decide.

Whatever you decide, I think you both need to be comfortable with it.

Like some others here, we are active Christians (not catholic), and the idea of just throwing away embryos... well, it's just not an option for us! I'm probably leaning towards having them all transferred until there are none left - but if we end up with some silly number of embryos, it kind of makes that idea a little overwhelming. I guess it's something to discuss with the clinic - if we can aim to collect a smaller number of eggs each go (I think 6-10 would be good, I start feeling a bit :eek: with the idea of 12!), rather than going for as many as possible, then it all becomes a lot more manageable. Anyone know if clinics would be happy to work that way?

BW

Something that hasn't been mentioned but to me is worth consideration is the viability of stored embryos.

As I mentioned I have nine frozen at the moment and plan to use at least one. I am fully aware though that in that process, we may run through the entire store of embryos before we find one that survives the thaw and is healthy enough to transfer.

Even though an embryo appears viable right before freezing, quite a lot of them may not make it any further once thawed. This is not so much a result of being frozen but more like the natural attrition that would occur anyway. As in nature, not all conceptions go on to become a baby. That said even though the freeze/thaw technology is very good these days, there may be some cells which do not recover from that process.

It then becomes a matter of whether you accept this as part of the process or whether it is still outside the bounds of what you consider morally acceptable so far as the creation of life is concerned. This might be balanced by how you feel about going through repeated stim cycles in order to obtain the embryos you need before you have success.
Counselling given to couples prior to starting IVF is geared toward nutting out a lot of these issues.

BW - I am not sure about your question but it might be good to chat to the clinic about it.

I guess whatever your beliefs with regards to religion and ivf and although it is a scientific/clinical process it still can't determine how well your body will respond to the drugs and still can't determine how many eggs will fertilize and the number of cycles it takes to produce a baby - these are all left up to mother nature. I think it is good to go in with an open mind and open heart as it is a tough journey both mentally and phsyically.

Just reading through everyones opinions on this issue we all have the same idea fundamentally and it really comes down to how you can reconcile it in your own mind and can fully accept any decision you have to make on this subject.

I guess that is where i am still at....how i can reconcile my actions. Thanks to you ladies i am definately one step closer to my decision :)

I'm in Melbourne and the clinics beliefs are that if you want to use them the case has to heard in front of the board for IVF legislation that hears each case seperatly. My thoughts are if it has to go to that length they prob are nearing the end of a sucessful conclusion.
My parish priest is extremly supportive he christened Eliza and alot of women in my parish have undergone IVF and dont carry a stigma
Bec

Just for anyone who is with Sydney IVF, called them this afternoon to see what the maximum length of years are for freezing bubba's and they don't actually have any designated length of time - it's indefinate!

BW, when I had my stim cycle I was told the aim was to collect 8 to 10 eggs, not a 'maximum' amount. I think the goal is something of a trade off between egg quality and quantity, and 8 to 10 was the number that the clinic had found to give optimal results. Mind you, the stim process can't be completely controlled and the number of eggs actually collected may be well outside of this range (and still successful). And there may be differences in approaches and experience for individual clinics/labs.

I agree with Melbo that you could ask for more info about this. I'm sure a specialist and clinic would be willing to listen to a patient's concerns about excess embryos because of their beliefs. I found mine to be very open to all sorts of weird questions that I threw at them.

PS I'm not an expert on this stuff...others may well know more than me!

In first cycle we had 17 eggs/13 fertilised and ended up with 8 embryos - we transferred 2 unsuccessful - 6 left , had FET and to get two to transfer they thawed 5 /6 unsuccessful, the last embryo failed the thawing on an attempted FET. Out the 17 eggs 13 embryos - nil babies

I agree with Melbo... you just can't assume each embryo will survive the rollercoaster ride.

On my 2nd cycle we got 19 eggs/17 fertilised but because we chose to go to blastocysts we ended up with 5 remaining embryos on day 6 - only two were suitable to transfer the other three were deemed unsuitable /unlikely to survive freezing/thawing or had no potential from scientists POV something to do with cell structure.

At the time I was disappointed but at same time I knew it was out of my control - my faith gave me comfort maybe I wouldn't have to worry about not having embryos to freeze.

Luckily those 2 precious embryos ,my miracles S & J ,are asleep in my bedroom.

I am relieved I don't have any embryos left else with my christian beliefs I too would want to transfer all till the end.Given my age it would have been tricky plus with wanting to BF as long as possible.

I respect we all have our own opinions and beliefs and I don't envy any one having to make such decisions. It is a mindfield whatever way you go.

I would think under other circumstances I would have liked to donate any remaining embryos... given we have an adopted son and his mother gave us the privelege of parenting him -albeit a different way.

Just today I posted off my form to donate my last two embryos for research :crying:

I would really like one more baby (we have 2 from IVF) but my DH is adament that we do no more IVF. He has agreed to leave it up to fate and if I do fall pregnant naturally well then so be it (I find this highly unlikey considering it has never worked before).

So anyway I'm truely grateful for my precious babies but am not entirely happy with my decision. It is such a personal choice and a difficult one. It makes it so much more difficult when you don't agree with your partner (I'm hearing you Sush).

I need to focus on my babies and be happy. Good luck with your decision.

Humphrey i can only imagine how you must be feeling at the moment and unfortunately after speaking with DH i am probably going to go down that road also so i guess the only thing i can take comfort in is knowing i am contributing to possibly one day finding cures to diseases, discovering new ways to make the IVF process easier and stem cell research.

I know it's a stretch but i think that is how i will be able to sign those papers!

I hope you are able to find peace with your decision :hugs:

Humphrey,
I'm sure your little frozen bubs will help someone just like we had people before us may of helped us.
Bec

Thanks girls. I thought all the emotional baggage associated with IVF was in my past - I guess it never really leaves us.