Controversial Pregnancy & Birth Documentary

Here’s a new, controversial documentary, Pregnant in America. It tells it like it is, as everyone has been jumping up and down about for a long time and it's happening here in Australia too.

There is a promo on the site (below) to give you a taste.

http://www.pregnantinamerica.com/index.php

Pregnant In America

Who's Getting Rich?: Who's Paying the Price?

Pregnant in America examines the betrayal of humanity's greatest gift--birth--by the greed of U.S. corporations. Hospitals, insurance companies and other members of the healthcare industry have all pushed aside the best care of our infants and mothers to play the power game of raking in huge profits.

His wife pregnant, first-time filmmaker Steve Buonaugurio sets out to create a film that will expose the underside of the U.S. childbirth industry and help end its neglectful exploitation of pregnancy and birth.

Pregnant in America is the controversial story of life's greatest miracle in the hands of a nation's most powerful interests.

I thought it was very interesting, but really disagreed with this comment:

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"childbirth itself is perfectly normal, complications are caused by intervention"

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I agree that childbirth is a normal event, but i think part of the thing that turns people against the left-wing approach is these comments, that everything is 100% fine without ANY medical assistance, and you are causing problems with intervention

If this was true, look back to times when there was no intervention for women, and look at the mother and child mortality rate then as compared to now.

I['m not saying people don't die now, that medicine is 100% the answer, or even that medicine doesn't (shock horror) cause some of these deaths...

But to say unequivically that "INTERVENTION CAUSES PROBLEMS" i believe is untrue and misleading

intervention can cause problems, intervention can help problems...it depends on the case, the dr, the hospital and various other circumstances... blanket statements don't help.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water... Western medicine saves lives each year.. its your choice whether to use those servces, but to say it is the cause of problems is not being fair and objective to the issue

I have no doubt there are many people that make money out of this, because they provide a service. But i know everytime i have ANY MEDICAL PROCDURE IN ANY AREA OF MEDICINE, people are making money from it. And if the stats were reversed, and 98% had babies at home as opposed to at hospitals, you don't think private midwives wouldn't make money from it? Don't they deserve payment for their time and services also?

From the trailer i like the Obgyn answer "deliever at home, but within 15 mins of a hospital"... that to me is saying it is natural and you can do it, but don't forget that things can/do go wrong, and western medicine can save you and your babies life.

Just my opinion...

when can we see the full version in Australia?

Can't WAIT to see this one! Although I won't enjoy it I bet.

Yael - yep, see your point - but I feel that it's more about what is behind the intervention. The medical industry (and I don't mean the drs, nurses and midwives etc) is SICKMAKING and money is behind it all. Lives are being ruined. GGRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

Lulu, I agree

I just feel blanket statements can really turn people off from seeing the message about the truth behind the industry.. the have an important message but if people percieve it as another rant for natural birth and being completely against medicine then some people will switch off before 1 minute is over

I wonder how many said the same about Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth'? I mean, who would want to hear about hippy environmental stuff? I would have never seen it if it wasn't the smash hit it was...

I wouldn;t have heard about this one if it wasn't for BB Kel. Thanks - although I can feel myself getting angry already! Well all the more to spur us on.......

All I can say is its made by a DAD TO BE, wonder how he would feel if he lost his little one during childbirth? Or how he would comfort his poor wife.

Oh and on the funny side, My OBGN now charges $1600 for planning and management fee (just to be there and do a c/s) my DH would now like to be and obstertician LOL.

Lindie

People just dont want to believe that when they have so much trust and faith in the medical system (because they no longer have faith in their own bodies as a result of this system). Here are some stats from Ina May Gaskin's birth centre, who is extremely respected in the birth world - and she is not the only one doing it, I also have stats for a GP in Europe doing the exact same thing but only with something like 20,000 births in his career. Ina May Gaskin is in the documentary.

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Stats for 'The Farm'
1970-2005 - 2286 births

births completed 95.1%
transports 4.9%
emergency transports 1.3%
primigravidas 44.7%
multigravidas 55.3%
grand multiparas 8.4%
caesareans 1.5% - transverse etc. First 400 births 0.5%
forceps 0.4%
vacuum 0.1%
inductions 5.4% e.g. with methods like castor oil
maternal mortality 0
neonatal mortality 0.36%

There were no more stats but I found this on her site which I thought I would add, which is only based on stats up to the year 2000:

Cases with no preeclampsia - 99.61%
Cases of preeclampsia - .39%
Cases with no hemorrhage - 98.2%
Cases of postpartum hemorrhage - 1.8%

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How else can we explain whats going on in hospitals? People just dont want to believe that corporate greed and ignorance exists in hospitals and that money makes the world go around. Midwives are leaving the profession in droves, they are struggling to cope in an environment which goes against everything they know and believe in. Without those midwives we are left with a system with care from doctors and midwives who only know the system, and you get 'in the system' births.

This is not judging where people choose to give birth, but actually defending those who are giving birth in hospital, saying there should be much better outcomes for women birthing there. Who wants an unnecessary vacuum, forceps or caesarean? They aren't attacking women's choices but standing up for all women saying birth should be a better experience. But there is so much hostility towards it when they are actually on every woman's team. And if they created a doco saying, yeah birth is okay, it could be better - who's gonna sit up and watch it? They need to be extreme because the situation is extreme.

It is a true statement that complications are caused by intervention. That is a fact.
NOT ALL COMPLICATIONS ARE CAUSED BY INTERVENTION - is definitely true also. So, I can see where you are concerned however, why not the concern about the inaccuracy of statements such as "ITS NOT SAFE TO BIRTH AT HOME"????

Birth is a natural and normal event for most women. Women who are having a premature birth would not be supported by a professional at home. No one with any credibility would want to have a bar of that. It most definitely would not be safe to have a premature baby at home.

It's so true that many many obs enter into their profession for the wonder of childbirth. However, very often the wonder gets lost. The VERY best skill a childbirth professional can have is the skill of watching and waiting all the while being mindful of the sacredness of birth. This is what is very often missing. I was at a recent birth where the obs came into the room. Put his arm on the back of the labouring mother and proceeded to sit in the corner of the room and watch. He watched for 3 hours while playing I spy with a 2 year old until that baby was born. This is a skill that is missing in MANY obs. Many of them wouldn't DREAM of being this basic.
Now, this isn't because they are bastards. This is because they are working in a system that doesn't support the needs and the spirituality of birth. They have appointments to maintain, sleep that they are deprived of, insurance that is crippling so God help them if they make a mistake or a seen to not be doing anything...

An obs sitting ona stool in the corner of a room would be an outrage to many women. They are paying this guy so he should be DOING something. Birth is about the mother birthing. It is NOT about the obs. Yep, if there is a medical indication bring on the medicine. However MOST births DO NOT REQUIRE A MEDICAL INTERVENTION - MOST.

So, I for one look forward to this doco!!!

I also disagree with the statement "it is not safe to birth at home"

All blanket statements don't help the situation

In certain cirumstances, i believe it is just as safe to birth at home, perhaps even safer... But part of the reason why the 'good' stats that Kelly quoted, is if they pick up certain complications early (like pre-eclampsia, high risk b/c of previous uterine rupture, placenta previa etc) - is the fact that they won't let you birth in a birth centre - and probably for good reason, because they realise that these women might/do need higher levels of care

It kind of skews the stats a bit... if you had everybody birthing at home with no access to medical help, they would have a higher rate or maternal and neonatal death.

I just believe there is a place for everything - low intervention births, and the realisation that sometimes things do go wrong, and help can be needed. I refuse to believe that EVERY dr thinks, 'great something has gone wrong, how much money can i make by giving her x,y or z?'

And even if they were making money out of me, if i needed it i would rather pay

The fact of life is that by living in a non communist country, every service you access, somebody will benefit financially from that..

Flowerchild when you say

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It is a true statement that complications are caused by intervention. That is a fact

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, wouldn't a better statement be "some complications are caused by intervention".

All these doco makers had to add in is the word "some", and they would have made that part a lot more neutral instead of quite biased.

Even in extreme circumstances, making your doco one sided won't really help to educate people... if you want to have true journalistic integrity, you have to make a balanced presentation of the facts.

But i still want to see it... I just hate anything in newspapers, books etc that is biased... I can still remember my Yr 12 English CAT where we analyzed newspaper articles, i still find myself doing it all the time

Who has seen it yet?? How do we know it's one sided? Doco's are usually factually correct or it comes back on the maker.
We've seen the money behind the prescriptions, the "free conferences" backed by HUGE pharmaceutical companies, the gifts, the incentives for Dr's to back a certain brand. Thalidomide, Celebrex and the Cervical Cancer vaccine etc etc etc - so why jump up and down and dismiss it before it's been seen????????????????

I didn't say that is was going to be like that,

But from the trailer they are promoting, it can turn people away from even going to see the full thing

I would go anyway, its something that i am interested in, but i can see why some people wouldn't after watching their trailer

I don't believe most docos are balanced, i just think they do it in very discrete ways that people don't pick up on... same with newspaper articles...

But at least you know their biases before going in there.

Any info on when i will be out here?

Yeah - you gotta have a hook though!! lol

Can't wait to see it. I think it's going to be fantastic. And no-one should be jumping to any conclusions about the content until they have seen it :)

Thanks for the email Kelly. I wonder if this will eventually be shown on Aussie tv like the "Super Size Me" was? That doco caused a stir, likewise the Michael Moore doco (something colombine - sorry can't remember the name and it caused a fued between family which is still ongoing!). It would be nice if all jorno stories were all completely balanced but saddly they're not and may never be - due to the basic *want* of making money. Take the 60 minutes story on Attachment Parenting. That story was aimed at the very, very, very extremes of Attachment Parenting and the majority of AP parents do not behave this way. Unfortunately the story only served to widen the gap between those that do and those that don't. Will this new doco be the same? Will it really highlight some of the unnecessary medical interventions that goes on with having a baby? Will it highlight the lack of skills the medical profession now has in some aspects of child birth such has breech birth? Will it highlight the old *too posh to push* which is still quite common these days. Will it highlight the scaremongering tactics used by the profession such as "you have to have an assisted labour if you are attempting a natural birth after a caesarean therefore you cannot do anything that comes naturally ie walk around, pace but instead you are to be strapped to a machine at all times to monitor in case your uterus pops open!" I agree this doco maybe more one-sided but it will be doing one thing... it will be alerting the general public to what actually goes on in childbirth whether they want to know what goes on or not.

On a completely separate issue... I've been wanting to acquire some vbac birth stories for a book that I'm planning on producing and have found opposition, why would that be? I would have thought that as there isn't enough stories out there in actual book form that could be either bought or borrowed from the library with Aussie women having vbac births I thought that this project would have been supported, especially for those who don't have access to the internet. Can anyone explain why this project of mine is not being supported and how do I change it so it will be?

Hey if someone can do a doco on Birthing in America, junk food making people fat as in Super Size Me, and the shooting in schools doco by Michael Moore, then surely my little project can get some support? Any ideas would be great!

There aren't a huge amount of VBAC's happening at the moment, I have supported some though, but they are in the minority because of issues this documentary will address! But feel free to post in here, in a new thread if people would like to share.

Thankyou Kelly, you're a gem.

It is true that the stats are great at "The Farm" because they have such excellent care and complications are picked up.
The point being that for healthy women that are educated about the birthing process, have excellent support and have low risks birth is very often an uncomplicated empowering event.

So, why then do we have a system that is geared toward medical intervention? We have it because women in general have lost Trust in their bodies and the process of birth. We have it because women now beilieve they are not getting good care unless they have an obstetrician. The art of mid wifery has been downgraded in the minds of some to handmaidenship rather than the art that it is. Many many women don't believe they are getting optimal care unless they have an obstetrician. However the stats are very clear. If you have a birth in a private hospital (always under the care of an obstetrician) you have a 30% chance of a c/section in Australia (and higher then this at some hospitals) and a high chance of intervention beginning from ctg monitoring which in itself means a woman labours in bed and cannot adopt postures that are natural for women to use in labour/birth...
We are led to believe that if we go past that magical due date we must be induced... So much fear surrounds this - again we need to listen to women,listen to OUR bodies, educate ourselves. The way the birthing system is now we listen to the doctor - the doctor who we see for a 10 minute visit - we give over our power and our womanly instincts...

Absolutely some women do require intervention for their wellbeing and the well being of their babies. Absolutely no argument. The problem is that MANY women don't and the system is geared to see birth as a disorder and not as a normal and sacred family event.

I do think that a doco needs to pull punches and if it puts some peoples noses out of joint so be it. I think it is clear that this documentary is trying to get a message across. JOurnalisim is just that. A journalist will report from their own bias. I
f I was a journo I would be doing the same thing I must admit!!!

We all see it differently and yes, they could add "some" in there but is that going to change it so much that more people would watch it? I don't think so personally... :hug:

ETA: Mr Moo if you would like to contact me I could perhaps refer some women who have had vbacs on to you if you can give me some details. :hug:

Will it only be aired in the USA?

Some of us are trying to contact them to make one along the lines of Pregnant Down Under LOL. Will let you know if anything comes out of it.

Thanks Flowerchild. I've sent a message via the "contact us".

That would be great, thanks.

Just on a little side note, I was LIED to by the midwife at Zains birth because I didn't want an internal. She told me I had meconium in my waters and that Zain was in distress which had the desired effect and had me hysterically wanting them to do anything to get him out quickly. He came out very quickly on his own, but the discharge MW told me that it was untrue. My waters were clear. The other one had just been 'paying me back' for being argumentative.

Yes its not just doctors but midwives in the system who are doing the same. When I go to births, the midwives are all very different - you dont get to choose going into hospital who you get, unless you hire your own, which I think is worth more $$ than getting a private Ob. Invest in someone who will be hired on the premise of a normal, healthy labour and birth, and spend most of your labour with you, not someone who will care for you on the premise of a complicated birth and will be there for 5 minutes at the birth.

Yes, you are quite right Natalie and I am so sorry you had such an awful experience. :hug: Not all midwives have a woman centred mode of care. As Kelly says hiring your own midwife or engaging in a team midwifery programme where you get to know your midwife is a good way of ensuring you get the care you want.

I had my membranes ruptured without my consent by a doctor during my first labour. Being mislead, having procedures done that you don't want etc happens A LOT in the system.

The words 'balance' and 'choice' come to mind.

I agree that blanket statements are counterproductive to the point being made. But many sweeping generalizations have been made to justify the medicalization and institutionalization of childbirth in our modern culture. Not that I am saying that making generalizations in retaliation will help, but just to be aware of how accepting we have been of sweeping generalizations ad even untruths/propaganda because they came from 'the experts' (who had a vested interest).

Esp in USA, the balance has swung so far away from choice and autonomy for women to birth without interference, towards technological control of a natural process, that it has become a system that exists to support itself instead of primarily women. It was only a matter of time before someone in the media took the natural birth demise in USA into mainstream consciousness with a splash. Whether he is doing this in a productive or counterproductive way might be debatable, but I think it was inevitable and that we will see a similar pendulum trend here eventually.

We need balance, and we need choice. When the balance in pushed too far one way or another, people react. I think the balance in Australia is too far away from supporting and respecting birth as a natural and private process and too far towards controlling it (and controlling the women doing it). This perpetuates fear, which leads to more necessity for further interventions, which leads to more horror stories, more fear etc etc.

In NZ, you have choice. You choose which midwife you like. Regardless of where you decide to have your baby, home, birth centre or hospital, or a combination of, that same midwife sticks with you throughout - pregnancy, birth and post-natal. In European countries where there is this kind of woman-centered, mid-wife led care, women report great satisfaction with the system and the safety rates for both babies and mothers are impressive. I wish our Australian midwives were as empowered, I wish Australian women had that sort of control, autonomy and choice. Then the pendulum makes natural variations and swings. Home birth becomes popular, then it kind of goes off the boil in favour of hospitals or birth centres, then it returns to favour .... depending on the women, and want they want. Not depending on the power games and propaganda of people who earn more from increasing technology at births.

Thank God for modern medical science and technology. It will be life-saving and will ease suffering in a certain percentage of births. But to restrict privacy, gravity and mobility from the average Australian woman so that her body cannot function optimally, and then introduce interventions as "necessary" is reducing the potential of the majority of healthy women with uncomplicated pregnancies to be able to experience just how well their beautiful bodies can and do function when the process is properly respected and supported. I hear women say, "well, there were just some unforeseen complications" but those complications were either caused or compounded by the fact that the need to "monitor" the labour and the baby took away her privacy, her support, her gravity and her mobility. The average woman's body just can't birth very easily under those conditions. There's nothing wrong with these women's bodies. It's just that what we have come to accept as standard obstetrical care in most hospitals is not what supports and promotes a spontaneous birth and positive, safe experience.

I want to see a better deal for Aussie women. I want to see a better balance, real choice, and continuity of care.

Julie,

I agree with what you have said, i think you said it very well.. There are for sure sweeping generalisations from the medical side (that most have accepted as fact), and i also agree sweeping generalizations wont help... For me, i would respond better to somebody pointing out the fallacy of one sides statements, rather than just making the same generalizations in reverse...

The only thing i question is that people often blame complications on monitoring, the situation etc...

Is it at all possible that unforseen complications could arise to a women giving birth at home under a midwife?? I believe yes... I don't think its right to imply without intervetion EVERYONE would be having spontaneous and positive births... But i also believe that intervention leads to more interventions....

Its such a hard line.. b/c you can't have it like sliding doors and see how a birth would progress in one enviroment vs. the same lady in the same situation (medically i mean), in a dif. enviroment... I guess we all try to compare, well, you story sounds similar to mine, and i had a ... birth and this is what happened to my baby, so if you were in my spot ... would have happened to yours...

Basically we can never know if it would have happened from the intervention or not...


I don't think it is fair to blame complications entirely on hospitals etc. People say there is nothing wrong with womens body, that they are basically perfect without help.. why then did i see a doco about a women in Africa whose labour stopped, the baby died eventually and she went to hospital 4 weeks later slowly expelling bits of baby with a huge fistula between her reproductive and digestive tracts? I don't think there is anything majorily wrong with our bodies, but i don't buy the 'we are perfect' either...

Also, lets not forget womens choices in here... We are talking about hospitals/dr taking away woemsn "privace, support, gravity and mobility"... basically her choices... there are quite a few women who are still informed, or don't want to be informed, feel safer in a hospital enviroment, and don't want a midwife. Just becuase its right for one women doesn't mean it is for another, and doesn't mean you can blame the drs for that womens choice!

But like i said, i really liked the way you wrote the above post...

I think people will come to accept the 'other side' through positive messages, not extreme ones!

I agree that there is a lot of problems with the commercial birthing industry, as it has unfortunately become.
However I truely believe that Australia has a long way to go before it gets even close to the way America treats their next generation.
After having three children in three different states, one of which was 10 weeks prem, I have seen a lot of the quality of care given to both mother and child and I have yet to come across any care as bad as what is obviously now happening elsewhere in the world.
We complain about the quality of care in Australia so often but can we really say that the problems we mention are the norm or merely, and hopefully, random incidents that should be dealt with one by one rather than saying they are happening everywhere, all the time like it seems in the states and possibly the uk.
I for one can say that my prem baby got the very best of care from both the Geelong hospital and the Mercy hospital in Melbourne. Credit where credit is due however and the Geelong hospital did above and beyond their very best and I now have a very happy and health one year old on Saturaday the 3rd. Happy birthday Willow!!! :clap: She made it.!!
Raven

There was a discussion on the midwifery list about comparing birth to Africa and from memory it was about being difficult to compare when they have substandard living.

There is a book called 'The Hospital By The River' about a fistula hospital which had been set up for the women there. The fistulas were often caused by obstructed labours, mostly due to malnourished women with an abnormally developed pelvis (Rickets) and also having babies very young. It's very rare in the developed countries like our own.

Kelly, i think you are right about not being able to compare...apples and oranges i guess

should i go and edit that bit out of my last post??

Up to you - I don't mind people knowing, they may have the same concerns. I am just trying to de-mystify the things that people see or read about but may freak out about... there is so much of it out there!

I think my point was more that when things are left 100% nature, things aren't perfect either.. but maybe a malnourished women isn't the best example of nature... gosh i don't know anymore.. i find myself having arguments with myself.. i think i'm going mad :)

But like i said about having two parallel cases occuring, you can't compare a healthy women in Australia vs. a malnourished African women and actually think thats going to give you an accurate comparision

But you can't really compare 2 women in Australia either, everybody has different bodies, babies etc etc

Thanks for posting about it.. i think it is very interesting, and i think discussio about this topic is the only way people perceptions will change

I've said it before to some people, i would love to have a midwife, and a water birth, and the only reason i go private is because i want the post natal stay and not get sent home the next day

Some people are more comfortable at home (my mum discharged herself after 3 hrs), and other want to recoup in hospital.. I'm like that, but don't want the shared room

I wonder if i can tell my obs to stay outside, unless i feel i need him??

But then again, i think all of us would take medical help if something serious did go wrong

I'm just for a balanced approach to everything... lots of things have its positive and negatives.. hopefully it doesn't have to be all or nothing!

This is a very lively and interesting debate ladies!! (My dinner is going cold while I read it...)

Mrmoo - my vbac won't be for a few years, but I'd be more than happy to give my story when it happens - I'll be so proud of myself I'll probably want a doco-film maker along as well!!

I would just like to point out that, although I haven't seen the film, I think the message will probably relate more to the effect that the corporatisation of the health system has had on maternity, rather than trying to portray medical professionals as being incompetent and uncaring. At least, I hope that's what it's trying to do. If you've seen the film The Corporation you'll know the bent I'm talking about. In this set-up, the medical professionals are at the mercy of the system as much as the mothers and babies are. It's a sad thing that (particularly in America) people are less important than profits. When a hospital is privately-run and owned by millions of different shareholders (who have invested to make money), whose funds are managed by in-between fund managers (wih no personal stake in the 'company') it's not hard to see why it leads to decisions being made that are not in the best interests of the patients.

On a lighter note, I remember telling my ob that I watched some shows on Foxtel about birth (American, obviously) and he told me they were good to watch for a laugh! If you do watch them, you'll see how different they are to what happens here. At the moment...

hmm... looks interesting! I'll be watching. Don't care if it's biased :) Sometimes you need a hardhitting doco like that to get the point across. If you start being all politically correct so as not to hurt feelings, the point gets lost.

If Supersize Me had 'softened' its message by saying that on the flipside, if you exercise and eat such and such to counteract eating some mcdonalds meals, it would have totally lost the impact of the message it had.. that fast food is very unhealthy, and it's marketing is geared so much towards our children. Now, whenever we get takeaway, this movie ALWAYS comes to mind.

I hope this doco can have the same impact.. whether it's extreme or not.. if it comes to mind during our dealings with OB's and midwives, I think it can only be a good thing. It will make us take a step back and question whether the 'care' we're receiving is part of the medical system, or if it's something we really do need.

I must admit, I'm not a home-birther hehe. Perhaps I'm one that can't shake the thinking ;) However, I try to fight the system whilst in it. It is still possible to be under the care of an OB and reduce your risk of intervention. Find a good OB, be well informed, and be sure they are going to follow your wishes. You don't have to be at home to enjoy the empowered natural birth, you can have it hospital too, it's just a harder fight.

I'm one woman and I've had four different birthing experiences at four different hospitals. My first was in 1992 where I had an older OB who very much believed in women only birthing on their backs with their feet in stirrups. There was not much research in magazines and the internet was no way near as common or popular is it is today. My labour was brought forward by two weeks and the week before again my unborn child was given steroids to help his lungs mature. I was unduced via the drip and was given an epidural. I had to sign a form during hard and fast contractions whilst strapped to a bed, the form was basically to say if the epidural went wrong the hospital was not responsible. My son was pulled out with forceps after my waters were artificially broken and I tore in the process, so then had to have stitches. This was in a private hospital with a private OB and I had private health cover at the time. Two years later in 1994 I was birthing again but this time in the public system with public midwives who fully supported my birthing desires. There was no intervention unless I asked for it. Going past due dates was not an issue, I was induced with the drip on the 14th day past due date but that was ok as I was still allowed to labour how I wanted. I was not strapped to the bed or to any machines. The midwives basically watched and only gave support when it was need - yknow the "you're doing fine" type words. Even breech births was still allowed and caesarean was still quite uncommon. Even my mum had twins naturally back in the late 60s.

Fast forward twelve years to a world where everything is techno and almost robotic and the basic skills of helping a woman to birth is just about forgotten. In 2003 I had no choice but to have a caesarean because the dr's and midwives did not know how to birth a breech baby. That important skill had not been kept up. In Jan 2006 I was in labour again for the fourth time and this time I led the entire birthing process despite still more opposition from midwives and drs. I had to be strong and empowered for my final birthing experience because I knew that no-one else would be. I had to go back to the basics even without the support because I was constantly reminded of how *damaged* my uterus was after the caesarean, *damaged* because the staff didn't keep up their end of the bargain - keep up the necessary assistant birthing skills.

I still believe the doco will be one-sided but even so it will be necessary to show just how far the medical profession does intervene even when unnecessary. Maybe it will show just how much pressure woman are placed under to have unnecessary caesareans - especially because of breech babies and the lack of skill in their delivery as one example.

My opinion won't mean anything here with more experts commenting on it, but I wanted to share my bit.

Just wanted to say, I'm very big on having a natural vaginal birth, I did so with my last two children with little intervention except induction for PE with my first, I had no pain relief either birth, I was too scared to even have gas in case of harming my babies, went home very early with my second, 4 hour discharge. Both babies were posterior which made things a little harder. This time I've already given my caregivers a hard time because I'm adamant about wanting a natural active birth like before and I'm getting told because of my history I will need more monitoring and I need to accept that intervention is a possibility.

BUT, with the birth of my DS, I would have and he would have benefited from medical intervention. I had a midwife that wanted self glory, I can confidently say that now after discussing my traumatic experience with both OBs and other midwives, that she acted very dangerously. I was only just turned 19 and I didnt' speak up when my DS's head was stuck on my perinium which made the pushing stage 2 and a half hours, all of which she made me lay on my back for. I was told when I pleaded with her to get a dr 'it won't make it any less painful you know!', this is after 10 hours of an induced posterior labour, and I didn't even have gas. She made me feel like I was failing for even asking. The other midwife in the room was begging her to consider calling a doctor, she kept insisting that 'she' could do this. I now know what a dangerous stupid thing this was for her to do, to not even consider getting a medical opinion, I was in a hospital. I am not thankful I avoided a episiotomy or a vacumme extraction, my DS would have been better off out of there much quicker than he was and it would have saved all the blood tests and stress to treat the severe jaundice he had from the massive bruising on his head from it being squeezed for so long.

Another lady on here has posted her story about a similar situation with the midwife working in a similar way when the head got stuck half out, she wasn't so lucky and her son has ongoing problems from it, pretty bad ones.

Even though I fight tooth and nail to control my birth, I still feel very reluctant to trust midwives after that experience. I kicked them all out when I was in labour with DD and only allowed them in for small checks and then when I needed to push. I lost faith in them after my first experience. I am hoping this one will restore it, I am planning if all goes well to give birth in the midwife run birth centre.

Yep, it's not all black and white.

Nat, mrmoo, Tara - I am so APALLED and angry about your stories. I just don't know what to say. Except for the fact that, Nat - I swear I would hunt that nurse down and BELT her one if that she did that to me.O M G.

There is obviously good and bad eggs all over I suppose. I had on OB for my first - but only to due a heart condition. He was a kind and lovely man and did the right thing by me and my baby.

The point is - a crappy midwife with a dangerous "hero" complex is not motivated by massive amounts of money - I don't know what motivates people like that to stay in the proffession, but it can't be money...

From my understanding Lulu it was about glorification by this lady's peers. The next day, I had many midwives coming in saying 'I heard his head was stuck on the perinium and Margaret got him out without a doctor'. Weird thing was, they had all heard I had pethidine which I hadn't touched, and they kept blaming that for the slow 2nd stage and also the breastfeeding problems I was having.

Margaret was very uncaring in the birth. I knew this already because my mother had had her 15 months prior with the birth of my sister and even though it was her 5th baby, it shocked her. My mother was actually told to go home by Margaret, but she insisted on staying and told her she knew it wasn't far and 30mins later when Margaret finally checked her, she was 10cm.

Margaret did a few strange things. When I first got the pushing urge, she told me I must wait for 1 hour till I could push. I don't understand this because she didn't even check if I was dilated, she just said I had to wait 1 hour. After my DS's birth, Margaret basically yanked my placenta out. It must have looked bad because my XH who wasn't the nicest caring person even was saying to her that it didn't look right that she was doing that. I had bits of placenta left in there everywhere which caused a haemorrage 7days post partum and caused a massive pelvic infection, requiring a D&C and 10 courses of antibiotics. AFter this, I caught every infection going around as my body took a good year to recover, I had several bouts of severe mastitis requiring hospitalization, my body just became immune to antibiotics so normal things weren't working.

She also wouldn't let me pursue with BFing my son in the delivery suite. I tried for 20 mins to get him attached with no help from her. She told me that most babies won't attach straigth away, and to wait for 12 hours and then try! She was trying to get me out of the birthign suite as her shift had ended half an hour prior to me giving birth, which she kept reminding me during my bonding with my son. Of course, being 19 and naive I listened to her about the BFing bit and then had a big battle ahead to get him to feed at all. I suceeded in the end, but only by my sheer will of desperately wanting to BF and alot of distress along the way.

This hospital I was in had a terrible reputation and due to my extended stay from PE, I saw many things that midwives did in the ward which were downright lazy and dangerous. One would come on for her shift, take all our charts, not too the obs all day, then return the charts at the end of the day. Me and some other girls got curious and read out charts after one of her shifts, and realized that the 4 sets of obs she was supposed to do she had just made up the numbers! THese were the numbers that the doctors reviewed every morning to decide what to do about each of us. The woman across from me baby went into distress at 33 weeks the day after this midwife was on day shift, and she had to be taken for an emergency c-section. If this had happened the day before when the babies or us weren't checked, her baby probably would have died. This is just one of many things that happened. Many of us were yelled at for using the buzzer because we weren't dying, some poor mothers were ostrasized for wanting to stay longer than one night for a rest after their baby was born, the midwives would come in in a group and would yell at them in front of everyone else in the ward.

There was obviously a real culture of that kind of practise there. I became friends years later with one retired senior midwife that had tried to do something about it and was bullied to the point of needing to leave.

I know the hospital I am going to with the birth centre is different, I've only heard good things about it, so I'm hoping this will be a healing experience.

I think this is a good and important discussion.

It makes you think about what causes complications? And what promotes safety?

(Yael): "The only thing i question is that people often blame complications on monitoring, the situation etc. Is it at all possible that unforseen complications could arise to a women giving birth at home under a midwife??"

For myself, I feel that the majority of healthy women, who already have a track record of being responsible with the care of their own bodies and selves, are good candidates for a spontaneous, uncomplicated birth in the most (not all) cases - if their birth potential is supported and not interfered with.

I think there is a percentage of women in every culture who will need more help to have a birth that is safe for both the baby and the mother. In the majority of these cases, I think the complications can be predicted ahead of time - because of the woman's health history and the signs already showing. This is why the stats for safe homebirth are so impressive. The chances of a healthy, motivated, well-nourished, fit woman with a well-positioned baby and a healthy foetal heart, who begins labour spontaneously getting into serious complications later on in labour are pretty slim. If rare complications should occur the attentive care of these skilled homebirth midwives is likely to pick it up as soon as anyone. They take no chances when anything departs from normal. Then you have this skilled midwife escort you to hospital during your labour. Women everywhere in Australia are transporting to hospital in the middle of labour, but when you're transporting from a homebirth, at least you have your midwife right there with you, checking the foetal heart and reassuring you.

Yael: "I don't think its right to imply without intervetion EVERYONE would be having spontaneous and positive births..."
Yes I agree with you Yael, reducing intervention is not going to be the magic solution for everyone, there will always be some of us who really do need that extra help and thank God for medical science. The problem is that (IMO) that we have too many fit healthy, average women whose chances of having a spontanous birth are being disrupted by a blanket/routine application of monitoring and intervention, and that this standard care contrasts dramatically with what you see happening in birth centres and homebirths where the intervention rates are low, the complications are low and the safety rates are high.
Yael:" But I also believe that intervention leads to more interventions...."
Yes, me too. At a homebirth, the mw checks the FH every little while and just keeps an eye on everything (your behaviour, blood loss etc) to make sure that everything is ticking along normally). In the best birth centres and hospitals, the approach is similar.
Dr. Sarah Buckley talks about Undisturbed Birth - the way that a quiet, private, familiar environment promotes the release of hormones our bodies need to birth efficiently. We birth best in an environment and atmosphere similar to the one we like when we conceive - simple: wha works for sex, works for birth. For most people, the kind of place they are expected to birth their babies in is pretty different from the kind of place they would be comfortable to have sex in. (It must feel a bit like that when a man has to up and produce a sample in a hospital bathroom.)

When supporting my clients, I've seen three or more changes of staff occur during their labour. They're just about ready to crown - and oops, change of staff, here comes a new midwife to get used to - and her manner is quite different to the last one -

That can't be very nice for the mw's let alone the mothers. When mw's have more autonomy as independent practitioners in their own right, who do not have to work under the authority of doctors (as in NZ and Europe), then the MW's are able to provide continuity of care that greatly increases satisfaction for the MW's and the mothers - and increases overall safety. That's one thing I'd like to see change in Aus. Meanwhile, the doulas are the onlly service that provides this continuity all the way through pregnancy birth and the post-natal period.

Yael: "Also, lets not forget womens choices in here... We are talking about hospitals/dr taking away woemsn "privace, support, gravity and mobility"... basically her choices... there are quite a few women who are still informed, or don't want to be informed, feel safer in a hospital enviroment, and don't want a midwife. Just becuase its right for one women doesn't mean it is for another, and doesn't mean you can blame the drs for that womens choice!"

Good point. But I also think that women's "choices" are fed by fear and misinformation that is rife on the subject of birth in our society in recent decades. No, you can't blame the docs or the hospital's for women's choice, but "choices" based on poor, incomplete info and bias are not real choices. There is still a dynamic of control being kept from the woman and disempowerment going on.

Safe homebirth practice in places like NZ, Holland and Aus can't be compared with developing countries where you have things like poverty, malnutrition, abuse of women, child brides, incredibly misogynistic practices going on. A 14 year old with rickets who has already had her genitals mutilated, and who has been abandoned in the bush to either die or survive, maimed, alone, is not a comparison to an independent thinking, resourceful woman in Australia who has done the homework, done the preparation and made it her business and her choice to birth the way she feels is safer - at home, or in a birth centre. I've also seen birth in middle of the road places like Hong Kong and China and Thailand. HK was very high tech, like a conveyor belt approach, China was downright scary, I'd rather give birth in a field. (many of the western women just had their babes at home). The hosp I went to in THailand was excellent - lovely OBs with a great reputation, very pro-natural birth, C/s rate of 10%.

Have to go - but thanks everyone for contributing to an interesting and valuable discussion.

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Just on a side issue as one of the gripes that comes out in all this is how much OBS charge and how greedy they are

But dont Doulas and private midwives charge a arm and a leg also ?

Wasnt i reading a thread recently where somone asked what the cost was and someone said $5000 ???

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That's almost half a years worth of Parenting Payment!!!