How's this for a woman-friendly Ob... (exaggeration)

... utter arrogance at it's best. This man should be ashamed. This is a practising Ob in Brisbane who updated the site in 2006, so its recent:

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Old Wive's Tales & Other Rubbish

Don't believe everything you read.

Of course, some of you won't believe what I write, but that's OK too.

A healthy degree of scepticism does go a long way.

Disclaimer: Please note that the opinions expressed below are my own. You may not agree with them, your doctor may not agree with them and your friends may not agree with them. They may not pertain to your pregnancy and where a conflict exists, please see your doctor. I may even be wrong, but that's just my opinion.

1. Do I really like doing Caesarean sections? - Not all the time. I do not get paid more for doing a caesarean. On the whole, it takes more of my time, it stops me doing other operations on my lists and if there is a problem, I have less to blame God for. Medicare lists an elective caesarean section, where there are no other complicating factors, as a low risk delivery. I always prefer delivering the baby you want over the delivery you may have preferred.
2. Do I always cut an episiotomy? - Doing an episiotomy is not my idea of fun and doesn't make my life easier. It takes time to sew someone up and I do not want to create unnecessary work for myself or pain for women.
3. Water Births? - People who are keen on this would not come to my practice. I believe it is rubbish, an unnecessary risk to the baby and it in no way, to quote a water birth website, 'enhances your primordial feminine powers'. I particularly object to the pseudo-science claptrap used to peddle this idea. No one can adequately treat emergencies, which may appear at the time of delivery (shoulder dystocia), when you are immersed in a tub of contaminated water. But, go ahead if you must. I am sure you will just shop around, until you find someone to agree with you, just not me. Water BIRTH is a completely different proposition to using water for pain relief during labour. Water is great, (showers, bath) and I firmly believe in its use with and without ruptured membranes.
4. 'I don't want Syntocinon given to hasten delivery of the placenta'.- Syntocinon, an injection given in your leg as the baby comes out, is not given to deliver the placenta. It is given to prevent postpartum haemorrhage (PPH). PPH was one of the biggest killers of women before the age of modern obstetrics. Before this, hospitals purchased shrouds for the dead mothers, in bundles of 60. Syntocinon and Syntometrum dramatically changed that and although a PPH may still occur, they are much less frequent and devastating. So, have the injection.
5. Vitamin K injections for your baby are safe. All newborn infants have low levels of vitamin K and are at risk of developing haemorrhagic disease of the newborn (HDN). HDN may occur within 24 hours of birth (early HDN), between day 1 and day 7 of life (classic HDN) or between weeks 2 and 12 of life (late HDN). Late HDN can result in significant morbidity and mortality (25%) due to intracranial bleeds, and has resulted in most developed countries having in place a protocol for the giving of supplemental vitamin K to all new born babies.
o One injection protects. Why mess around with oral formulas, which may be missed or not absorbed, when the injections have been proven safe. Just do it.
6. 'Don't cut the cord until it stops pulsating' - For heavens sake!......................If you cut the cord and then feel at its base, you realise the reason it pulsates is that the babies heart is beating. The further up the cord you go away from the baby, the less you notice it but the actual beat won't stop unless the babies heart does. Also, the baby does not need the blood in the cord. It already has a full load so what are you waiting for?
7. 'I won't bond with my baby if I have a caesarean' - You bond with a baby because you love and want them. I have yet to have any baby tell me that one method of delivery leads to more contentment than any other. I understand that some people believe this but that doesn't make it true. However, a contented mother always leads to a contented baby (and husband) regardless of the method of delivery.
8. No child, to my knowledge, 20 years later, has ever said ' I wouldn't be this way if I had been breast fed'.
9. Ditto for 'had I been delivered vaginally'.
10. Hanging up the washing or putting your arms above your head DOES NOT lead to the cord wrapping around the babies neck.
11. Braxton Hicks contractions can hurt, a lot.
12. You are only a low risk pregnancy after the baby is out.
13. Breast is best unless it isn't.
14. Rasberry leaf tea has not been shown to make any difference to labour. It remains unproven, but If it does work, then don't take it before 36 weeks.
15. Birth Plans are not essential. The length of your birth plan is inversely proportional to your chance of a vaginal delivery. If your birth plan is more than 1 Written (not typed) page, then you probably have unrealistic expectations. Unrealistic expectations, fatigue and pressure from 'friends' or 'well-meaning' relatives is more likely to cause postnatal depression than any particular aspect of delivery.
16. Using the foetal heart rate (< or > 140bpm), the wedding ring test or the presence or absence of indigestion to determine the sex of your baby has a 50% chance of being right.
17. Carrying high and carrying low means nothing. Neither does the comment ' you have dropped'. The general public have foot in mouth disease when it comes to pregnancy.
18. Does Perineal Stretching Work? - I don't know. I do not think masage works. I am sure wheat germ (oil or otherwise) won't work and I am not convinced that expansion of the vaginal entrance with a balloon is a good idea. But if you want to try it, let me know how it goes.

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scary stuff!!!!

Kelly, this man has got to be kidding. Right ??

That was just ridiculous. I pity any woman that goes to see this man.

is he for real?

Yep. He defies all study and research with his comments, including that there are nothing but benefits for leaving the cord to pulsate. I wish I could use whatever words I wanted to but I will restrain myself :) No offence to anyone seeing him.

That is the problem some women don't know any better and think this guy is speaking from experience and wisdom and take that for what it is... which is why I love helping women to become more informed about this stuff. Birth doesn't have to be like that!!!

Hmmm ... what stuck out for me was this


Don't believe everything you read.

Of course, some of you won't believe what I write, but that's OK too.

A healthy degree of scepticism does go a long way.

Disclaimer: Please note that the opinions expressed below are my own. You may not agree with them, your doctor may not agree with them and your friends may not agree with them. They may not pertain to your pregnancy and where a conflict exists, please see your doctor. I may even be wrong, but that's just my opinion.

I think he made it quite clear that it is his opinion and he is as entitled to express it as much as anyone here is entitled to express theirs. Of course, someone who is a devout believer in non-medicalised birth is not going to agree with what he has written but that doesn't make him arrogant, any more than it makes some of the opinions expressed on here arrogant.

And THAT is just my opinion. =)

Kelly, I was looking for a contact thing so I could email this man. But then I thought, what's the point, clearly he is a very ignorant man and nothing a mere female could say to him would change his thinking.

It wouldn't matter what research you showed this man, he would delve back into tthe dark ages and find conflicting information.

You are so right though, it's far better to try to educate a woman before she see's a man like this so she know's that what he say's is not gospel, and that it really can be the way she wants it to be.

Who's going to read or look for a disclaimer on a website before seeing an Ob? Most people have direct referrals from GP's and just go and see these people. And the words he uses like 'claptrap' *rolls eyes*.... arrogant in that he takes the power away. I am not arrogant.

My SIL goes to see him and had her DD with him 3 yrs ago and is having DS with him in May and she has said nothing but wonderful things about him. Although I do not see him as I go to the Wesley Private and see Dr Turner. I have heard that he has an excellent reputation in Brisbane. Don't forget that it was his own opinion that he was giving and that everyone is entilted to his or her opinion.

Yes, opinions are one thing but unnecessary procedures to women's bodies and/or the baby, (esp. going against studies or evidence!) is not like picking the colour for the nursery, it has long term health/psychological effects.

With the reputation thing, depends who you speak to - I hear midwives who want to leave the system in Brisbane and certain groups of Obs. High tech birth and bedside manner doesn't mean high standard of healthcare. Just something to consider and I am not judging anyone based on who they choose for care - we are all attracted to certain people. But like anything, I think it's good to know pro's and con's or you may not end up with what you hope for. Some people are not phased with a medical birth, but if you hope to avoid that, then this is something that is good to know so you can make an informed decision.

I actually disagree that he can say whatever he wants! He is a health care professional and some of his statements go against what is known to be fact.

Interestingly a hospital on the Sunshine Coast has the highest rate of waterbirths in the state! Do they have a higher neonatal death rate??? No my friends they don't it is significantly lower than the learned doctors hospital of choice!!!

Yes, if you want a medicalised birth Lorded over by a doctor who sniffs in the face of fact then he is clearly your man!
Of course the baby's heartrate is felt at the cord! What point is he making? Why in preterm births at leading hospitals is it preferred to wait for the cord to stop pulsating? Because it has been shown to be beneficial that's why!

I felt annoyed by this man's comments. Arrogant he is- he was giving his opinion however, his title means to some that he must be right. That concerns me because he simply is not with many of his comments.

I am off to write a letter...

Whether you like it or not, when a professional gives opinion like this, it IS disempowering!
Water Births don't work? Ummm, mine did. Birth plans aren't essential? Mine was adhered to beautifully by the midwives at my BC with NO PROBLEMS on their part with my wishes. That 'claptrap'? Based on physiological fact - fear=tension=pain...remove the fear, geez, water can do that wonderfully! No fear/tension/pain immediately lowers risk!
Since when is he also a lactation consultant?
Actually, I DO know people who can attribute adult health issues with not being breastfed, so HA!
I DO agree that a healthy baby and mummy is the most important outcome of birth, however, I object to his suggestion that interventions don't contribute to PND...they sure as hell do, that's why a good debrief is essential.
Sure, breast is best until it isn't, even the ABA will tell you that, it's a no-brainer...if only all birth professionals could care about lactation as well as just the delivery, we'd have more women persevering with BFing beyond that difficult initial attachment stage!
Vitamin K became necessary when breastfeeding was relegated and formula was de rigeur. Breastfeeding on demand removes the requirement for Vit K in most cases - if you ask the right questions at the time, you should come across this answer at the hospital!
I could go on. What makes this person's 'opinion' dangerous is that he knows it is heavily weighted by his qualifications. Many women will not go away and think 'well, that's just one person's opinion', they will say 'it's his opinion, but he is a qualified OB and should know what he's talking about' - THAT is where the disempowerment lies.
I'm with you, Kelly, I have some choice adjectives in mind, but for now they will remain in my mind!
This is the kind of OB who likes to have the decisions deferred to him. He doesn't care if someone 'shops around' because he knows the ones who do, and who want a water birth, are likely to have less respect for him than he would desire. They would actually want to see him as more of an equal participant in the birth, and I don't think he'd like to come down from his pedestal for that. Women like myself and many others on BB would just want more input and control into the process.
To deride the power of a waterbirth is REALLY arrogant! How the hell would he know about 'primordial feminine powers'? How dare he suggest that this is a myth? Why give an opinion on something you don't know about? That way lies folly - who does that but a fool? The best thing he could have said here in relation to water birth is 'I don't attend these, you'll need to find someone who does. As someone who doesn't do them, I have no experience to comment on the merits, or otherwise, of these'...but he didn't. He decided to show more enlightened women that he isn't comfortable with women taking on their own birthing experiences. I mean, what would we know, the baby only comes out of us. You would think that after witnessing so many births, he might actually credit women with something for being able to experience such an event. But no. As merely a vessel for another life, with no capacity to influence my own outcomes, I put at risk the life of my little boy when I had a waterbirth. My arse!!
I see what you are getting at, too, Kelly. It's the whole point of Belly Belly. "Take ownership of your birthing body" is one message I take away from here. This man is the antithesis of that.

I didn't like the attitude of i don't do episiotomies because they take too much time to sew up not because i feel they are unnecessary, and in most cases shown not to help.

The only thing he was right with was you have a 50/50 chance of getting the gender right...

Which was almost the only "old wives tale" he address, the rest of it was just him ranting about his philosophies...

Yep, Yael - that's what I would tell people when they were trying to guess my baby's sex...but I stopped cos they'd look at me like I'd just popped their balloon! I agree, that and the hanging up washing were the only 'old wives tales' he identified and addressed. The rest was mean-spirited and cynical. Don't mind me, but the last thing I want around me when I'm pregnant and giving birth is male cynicism!

What surprises me is that he puts this on the internet for people to read - assumedly to drum up business.
Even if you did agree with some or all of the things he says - i think the way he has written it speaks volumes for his mannerisms and it just makes him sound pig-headed and inflexible.

I agree Kotare. His attitude speaks volumes. Can't you imagine him hearing you??? I think not.
As you say if what he said were factual - his attitude is appalling.

IK- I agree cynacisim does not belong in the birthing environment!! Let alone unbased cynacisim.

At the risk of being shut down here.....

The man is actually okay, he is just fed up with some of the alternate ways that things are done I assume, I dont use him but I know of a women who is at the moment and says that she couldnt believe that was on his website as hes really really not like that....

My Ob is of asian decent and tells me that you wouldnt believe some of the requests and mustdo's of some nationalities and that some women need to get the right advice as a lot of non english speaking women have very little modern knowledge of birth...(Not too sure about this)-(we are one of his very few aussie clients)

So not too sure if he dislikes women but he seems to be pretty upfront LMAO.

But very true this is pretty out there heh!!!!

Lindie

I can't see how that is going to get him any extra business. And I hate to disagree but I think he is arrogant, his tone is arrogant regardless of his opinions, and he is most definitely condescending.

I think he should rename it "What I think of natural birth" Instead of the article being under the guise of "Old Wives Tales" as I think I saw maybe 3 wives tales in there...

I feel bad also for women who might read that who didn't get the birth they had hoped for the first time and think he might be right based on their own situation. I could have easily been that person... Luckily for me I had "Unrealistic expectations, and pressure from 'friends' or 'well-meaning' relatives." And ironically I had PND with my medicalised birth but not my more natural one...

I still believe regardless of medical or natural birth, a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants, and not made to feel like an idiot or uneducated for her decision.

*hugs*
Cailin

I think the page on his website where he writes about the old wives tales makes him sound arrogant and condescending. Makes him sound very blunt. Some of the other information on his website is not so bad though. I think he is just obviously not into the more alternative things to do wihth pregnancy and birth.

dont shoot me but besides his overall stance on water births I see nothing wrong with what he has written *ko ducking for cover now*

I particularly like this comment

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I always prefer delivering the baby you want over the delivery you may have preferred.

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Rach, that's what I meant about outcomes. But he confers too much power on himself...I like the midwives who insist that it is the mother who 'delivers' the baby :)
However, he negates the goodwill in that gesture by making people like me out to be some sort of misinformed deviant.
I'm just always glad now that my first experience was one shaped by instinct, and not by a traumatic previous experience, like so many women on here and that I know from elsewhere. Someone like him will, hopefully, never enter the equation in my birthing experiences.
Geez, I have a morbid curiosity to see what he thinks of my intentions to homebirth the next one...with only a midwife and possibly doula present!

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Hmmm ... what stuck out for me was this

I think he made it quite clear that it is his opinion and he is as entitled to express it as much as anyone here is entitled to express theirs. Of course, someone who is a devout believer in non-medicalised birth is not going to agree with what he has written but that doesn't make him arrogant, any more than it makes some of the opinions expressed on here arrogant.

And THAT is just my opinion. =)

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I agree with Melbo.

And thats fine... some people like the process controlled and certain. Some like the freedom to be in control . But Obs like that offer no choice, which is not good for the unsuspecting.

at the risk of feeling v ostracised.. i dont agree with all he says but i also dont feel so comfortable on here stating that i do perhaps want a more medically assisted delivery...labour and birth is not something we all feel so comfortable with (yet) and I must admit I find it hard to tell other women that maybe i will ask for lots of med assistance from my OB... I am really not sure what I want yet, I need to do a lot more research, and I do feel that his tone is not my cup of tea but perhaps all of us could be more open to all the diff perspectives? (ie not just those who are more medically interventionist needing to be open to other methods) - surely we all make the choice that we think is best for us and our baby and we should be supported in that and not judged... (ok guess I have lost a few friends thru that one...)

I dont think anyone is judging at all and don't see that here - I believe 110% that confidence in birth is the difference. It's the confidence women feel that will result in a different outcome. It's sadly society, a lack of good support, good education, and lack of maternity care options. It's not the blame of women AT ALL. So no-one please feel judged - it's not that at all.

All i can say is that i'm extremely fortunate that my Ob's have been interested in and encouraging of the birthing outcomes i have expressed a desire to achieve. There would be no way in hell that i'd allow a Dr like him to have anything to do with such a special moment in my life. Yes - he is entitled to openly express his opinion just as i am entitled to express my opinion about him. IMO he appears arrogant and ignorant of women's needs and desires, and makes labour and birth sound so technical and cold. Not for me.

I have friends who have used him, and they think he is wonderful. He saw me after the birth of my first child, and he is very friendly, but has a cheeky sense of humour. There are some women out there, and i may be one of them, who actually feel a little guilty because we're not into everything natural. After reading this, i probably would feel very comfortable going to see him. I don't think he is being arrogant at all. Obviously he has lots of experience and is just putting forward what he knows. He also mentions that if you don't like his ideas, you don't have to go to him.

I actually don't agree he is putting forward what he knows. I think he is putting forward an opinion.
Some of what he says flys in the face of fact. By making those statements he is disregarding fact, studies and modern obstetric ideals.

It is so right that every woman should choose what birth they want. Some women for varying reasons will choose a medical birth. Others will choose a natural birth. My passion is that women are making an informed choice.The statements this doctor are making do not encourage informed choice. I don't believe that attitude does anyone any justice - a woman wanting a medical birth included.

Is there any website where you would all say there is good info on both medically assisted and more natural birthing choices? I am looking for a site with facts not opinions and no emotion.... I am not being faceitious, I really want the info!

There are plenty of articles on BB with references to study from around the world and the WHO. Including the recent one about cord clamping which the doctor does not agree with.

I guess i just don't see which statements disregard fact, studies and modern obstetric ideals.

Yes but he shouldn't bag other womens choices (waterbirth is rubbish? cutting the cord - for heaven's sake?!). Works both ways. He could have been a lot more professional and mature about it, I know his beliefs are held by many Obs... but to be so rude... and scaremongering about death way back when... it's not an information site, it's a business site - you need me because birth is scary and you or your baby could die.

This thread has reminded me of how far we have to go...

I've said all I need to and I have no regrets, because I believe we have can have better outcomes for women (that they want and are happy with - who out there really aims for forceps?) that one day wont be so scary to contemplate. I think the fear factor leading them to this now, can be dissipated. Once giving birth in hospital was scary. I believe change can happen and be embraced. Just takes time.

Ps. I have edited the name out of posts.

I agree Kelly - perhaps i took his words too personally but the impression i got was almost like he was mocking the natural or alternative practices some women choose. I mean he referred to them as 'wives tales' for goodness sakes! Wives tales are things people don't really take seriously. Like others have stated he only mentions maybe one or two actual wives tales. If i wasn't a stronger, informed woman and saw a Dr like him i think i'd feel quite humiliated and shot down about making any suggestions re cord clamping, waterbirth...

I think its a case of choice, if you dont like what he writes, dont read it. I doubt hes lurking in here reading - because he probably disagrees with the forums views.

I think he possibly has old fashioned ways, and from what i see, its about getting the baby here and not about the how.

If he felt that Belly Belly had views and opinions that he didnt agree with - would we stop saying them? So if we disagree and we are confident in our beliefs, these people shouldnt bother you.

As for him saying re: waterbirth - thats still his opinion, medically - and what causes the cord to pulsate?

I agree with the no difference thing too, my mum had a c-sec because of my club feet, i was bottle fed, my cord was cut straight away , i stayed away from my mum for 2 weeks, because she was ill etc... We get along fine, shes my mum and how i got here made no difference to that.

I dunno, i just dont see the point in being angry or annoyed.. IMO

I think i still have the right to be annoyed by an arrogant man in a position of power making such comments about women's birthing choices.

I applaud him for having an excellent reputation and being responsible for many positive birthing outcomes but i don't have to like his personal opinions about issues i actually find important. And i'm fortunate to be a member of a forum where i'm given the opportunity to express my feelings/opinions.

Rae, I have to say that I totally agree with you.

I have always had what I knew to be a "different" outlook on birthing compared to most people I know. But through BB I have had the opportunity to be able to share my views with others and am so happy to see that so many other girls are changing around their thinking.

Well, according to this Dr I would be a very stupid girl indeed with my last birth. Points 3,4,5, 6 and 15 all go against me. Throw in the fact that she was a planned homebirth bub and OMG.

How happy am I because of it. I'm esctatic.

There are always going to be people and Dr's out there who have differing opinions to our own. It's up to us as women - and informed ones as that to make wise choices, in both who we choose to be our carers and what form of care we seek.

Colleen, that's the point - his 'views' on waterbirth are not actually medically informed! It's just that waterbirths tend not to require the services of an OB because a woman who has one tends to have armed herself with enough information that she doesn't need one. There are OB's who do waterbirths, but they tend not to need to do anything whilst attending a birth! The latter type of OB doesn't mind, and prefers, not to do much.
Birth is a fuller experience than just 'getting the baby out', but if you want to limit it to just that, then fine. It's just that most women realise it implies more about their existences, their families etc and when it 'goes wrong'...they can be a bit messed up about it. If it were merely a means to an end this wouldn't be the case. Women are taking it back, and OB's like this one don't really like that much...

When I had family tell me on Sat night they think it's weird that I have invited my Aunt whose memories of childbirth are very very bad & they still upset her... Either born still & whisked away never to be seen again or of both premmies being whisked away & only being allowed to see them 2 days after birth due to her having a hissy fit...

I realised how far we have come
I dont see it as weird, bizarre or strange... I am comfortable with childbirth, I welcome labour pains, contractions & that utterly delightfyl stge when i can push, I enjhoy labour (I know it sound weird) but I have no fear whatsoever about labour, so I personally think it will be great for my aunt to experience & I am thrilled that I can share t with her!

She is excited that she gets to be with us & gets a practise run before her won daughter settles down & has kids as she has memories of labour being fearful & is scared that she wont be a good support person for her daughter!

My Midwives have assured me that I can birth Zyon wherever I choose, they will get in any position they need to when I am ready to push & wont expect me up on a the bed or anything else... I am so excited & looking forward to labour, I actually cant wait...

I must admit I just read what the guy wrote & dismissed it with a grain of salt... Cleraly he & I dont have the smae thoughts, but I dont think any one of us on here would agree entirely with another!

However I think overcoming the fera of labour goes a massive way into having a pleasant birthing experience... But I agree ultimately assist me in birthing a healthy baby & I will be most happy!!!

My main point was that his views are his and yours are yours.

And not to focus on it too much if it upsets you. Im sure hes not sitting at his computer reading Belly Belly getting all worked up about it because he doesnt agree with other peoples birthing choices.