Vitamin K which is routinely given to babies following birth is made from cow bile. How often is this information given to women before they inject the baby? I would love to hear from anyone who's Ob told them this.
Lisa Barrett
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Vitamin K which is routinely given to babies following birth is made from cow bile. How often is this information given to women before they inject the baby? I would love to hear from anyone who's Ob told them this.
Lisa Barrett
Mine did. We discussed it at about my 36 week appt of my first pregnancy.
My second OB (moved interstate for my 2nd and 3rd pregnancy) gave me written information for me to review.
The paed at the hosptal also discussed it with me and DH when he came to do the initial check on Charlie, same again with Lexie.
My midwives didn't but they did give me a book with links to find such info out and i did. We were debating the Vit K injection as i felt another injection was cruel if not necessary, but we came to the conclusion that being at home and having a drug-free (gas and air only) mummy was a good enough start that all-at-once Vit K would be a good thing. She was given it while i held her skin to skin, she mewled a little and rooted and i put her back to my breast and she settled immediately.
B
Rhea was discussing vitamin K this weekend at birth classes with my sister, as far as the studies go, apparently this is what has happened to date for those who don't know.
1. First study comes out linking injectable vitamin K to childhood leukemia
2. Second study comes out dismissing that
3. Third and recent study comes out saying that yes there is a risk of childhood leukemia, but it is the same risk as that for which the injection is trying to prevent haemorrhage
For those who have no bleeding disorders in the family, who plan on breastfeeding, and have had a healthy birth, you are best placed to consider not having vitamin K.
But for those who have bleeding disorders in the family, are not breastfeeding, or have had a traumatic birth for the baby where there were perhaps forceps or vacuum or baby is bruised might like to think about having it.
The choice is personal and up to parents to make and we are all trying to do the right thing for our children, so we just need to do the research and decide what we are most comfortable with and like I always say, weigh up if the risks will outweigh the benefits.
In my personal opinion only, I think it's yet another thing which is being done without the healthy aspect being taken into account and provision of balanced, detailed info being handed out before you have your baby. My Ob never discussed it with me and I had no idea what it was made out of either! If there are no risk factors, then why it is routine I don't know - just like third stage injection and antibiotics in labour... you would think it would be better for the mum and bub if they showed signs of these conditions relating to the preventative first. Anyway, just my opinion like I say and my kids did both have vitamin K via injection, but I knew nothing else at the time. There is too much pressure to conform and do the right thing, being a good parent, I think I just decided to conform (and didn't get the chance to research) in order to be seen as doing the right thing.
I'm not talking about a general vit K discussion but the fact that it is made with COW BILE.
Lucy if you have a written review including this information I would love to see it. It doesn't even say it on the lit included with the drug. You have to look up the manufacturer or a place of open discussion.
Also Knowing it's cow bile, does that make the decision to inject it into your baby more difficult or is it just one of those things that is accepted just as we know prostin is made with pig semen and nobody seems to care.
Lisa Barrett
Lisa Barrett
I know, just filling people in who may not know what it's all about.
I was at a birth this weekend - mum had a normal birth until...
Midwife: "I'm just giving you an injection..." (moves towards thigh with injection)
Woman: "Huh? What's that for..." (too late)
Midwife: (nothing)
Me: "That's so they can hurry up the birth of the placenta"
Midwife: "It's to prevent bleeding"
Nothing wrong with a bit of extra information.
Thought i better add - didn't have the chance to work with her pre-natally so we didn't discuss it before birth - was a last minute thing.
Yep I knew, but you know what I eat cheese with animal rennet so I would be hypocritical to say that it bothered me.
Thanks for that bit of info Kelly interesting as always :D
*hugs*
Cailin
You are absolutely right Jelvie - many many drugs are derived from less than *yummy* sources! I am currently on Fragmin as you know and that is derived from pig guts! Yummo but would I not take it and risk yet another intrauterine fetal death due to the source. Not on your pink babushka!
Yes, my midwives advised me the derivitive of vit k - it is readily accessible as far as I knew - but because I knew it's source I have never thought any more about it. I personally have not given vit K to any of my children... I also have had no synto given to deliver our placentas.
I agree 200% with Kelly in a routine vaginal birth without intervention it is my opinion from pouring over much literature that vit K is better not given. I had an obstetrician with my fourth child and I stated no vit K and he was fine - thre wasn't even an argument (possibly because he knew me and my nursing background) likewise with the synto - I have not had it with any of my births and this also was a non issue.
I agree that many obs are all for intervention but I have had the very great priviledge of knowing quite a few who are very woman centred... I think it's up to us as women and health care consumers to seek out the factual information and a care provider that "gels" with us for our pregnancy/birth and early parenting journey... :hug:
Lisa, I am sure I have the info somewhere. It was given to me around May '05........it'll be in Charlie's file somewhere. We have since moved house (arggggg!) but I will try and dig it out to see where it was from/if I can link to it etc.....
As I was packing my dishwasher I remembered something... I actually think now that Konakion has a petrochemical base and the bovine content was removed. I think I remember reading this quite recently.
I will find out and post back when I know... :hug:
Ewwww cow bile.....!!
Pretty gross indeed...but i guess if it helps even the tiniest bit then it dont matter where it comes from!
Atleast cow bile is natural i suppose..
Okay. The Vitamin K - or kenakion that is given now is called phytomenodione - and phyto means plant derived. The pharmacist checked with the manufacturer and there is
definitely nothing of animal origin in there at all!
I agree with you Shan re: the pork derivitve of prostin... It is synthethic now also I checked it out... ;)
I was thinking about gelatin too Shannon! We have vegan friends so we get to hear all about all the nice stuff in food LOL!
Thanks for the heads up Deb, and Shannon yeah I thought the same about pig semen too...
*hugs*
Cailin
Sorry Jelvie - I just got off the phone to my "reliable source"!
Lisa, I have found the info given to me by my OB.
It is a type-written document on his practices notepaper, which is stapled to a pamphlet outlining "Vitamin K for Newborn Babies, Information for parents" which is issued by the Australian Government (National Health & Medical research Council). The pamphlet itself doesn't contain any specific info regarding cow bile, hence, I think, he has attached his own info.
The pertinent detail of his own typewritten info says:
There are no references on his type-written document, so I am unsure as to where he would have sourced this info, aside from his own learning/awareness/the drug manufacturer. It seems to me that it is written in fairly easy "lay-mans" terms.:
In both the oral and intramuscular paediatric formulations, the "Vitamin K" formulation contains phytomenadione (Vitamin K) as well as sodium glycocholate (cow bile) and lecithin (both naturally occurring substances). The combination of the sodium glycocholate (cow bile) and the lecithin mean that the phytomenadione (Vitamin K) becomes soluble in a liquid medium.
(It made sense to me when I read it at any rate. I understood it was cows bile, and I understood the bile component was deemed necessary, as I already knew Vit K was a fat soluble vitamin substance. So I understood that if I chose to have the Vit K administered for my babies, it would have to be in this "mixture".)
That's interesting Lucy as I was just told the bovine component was taken out and it was now completely plant drived... *she goes off to make another call*
Yeah, its tricky. Becasue phytomenadione (pure Vit K) can be totally plant derived. I think the issue is the solution it is made into to make it suitable/stable for administering (oral or via a needle.) So its the additives that are the "issue"? Dunno.
(My mind is spinning between my studies in nutrition and my experiences as a Mummy! LOL!)
For the life of me I cannot remember if my same OB gave me the info again with Lexie: cannot remember, so it may be that when he gave it to me when pg with Charlie Chuckles that it was current info then (mid year 2005) but it has since changed?
It doesn't bother me at all if it was derived from cow bile - quite frankly if it was necessary for my child that would be the only thing that mattered. There are a lot worse things out there that that (i would prefer cow bile that some sythetically made stuff anyway)
And people eat in their foods a lot worse things - gelatin is gross (but you can get synethic ones.. a lot of gel caps in tablets are with bovine gelatin). Some red food colouring is made from crushed insect wings.. and people eat that every day!
How many people know the derivative of every single drug in the market - how many gps and pharmactists (and even vitamins you take - like glycosamine is from shark), tell you it for anything? If they are a good pharmacist they will tell you how to take it, and what side effects etc. It seems like this thread isn't to inform, but to try and and stir up feelings against Vit-K (and i'm not debating when/if it should be given), and obs freely giving out information.
There are more important things i think people should be told, like that Anti-D is a blood product dervivative for example, that would be a bigger concern to me.
In regards to Jewish people and prostgladins and anything else pig, shellfish etc derived, there is absolutely nothing what-so-ever wrong with it. My FIL had a pig valve put into his heart last year, and i would happily have every single one of my organs replaced with pig organs if need be (well, happy because Jewishly its not an issue.. personally i like my organs the way they are :) ). You can even have pig tissue used in plastic surgery if you wanted. The issue is eating pig (or shellfish or lots of other non-kosher things).. Whats more, you are actually obligated to eat these things if your health is in danger - I would eat bacon 3 times a day if i needed it.
But my DH just asked me, how do they collect the pig semen anyway? You wouldn't want to put that on your business card would you ;)
I just splurted coffee over my keyboard when I read that sweets! Thanks for the giggle!:
But my DH just asked me, how do they collect the pig semen anyway? You wouldn't want to put that on your business card would you
Shannon - thats ok, (i wasn't trying to shoot anyone down, just a lot of people don't know) and you would be suprise how many Jewish people don't know it.. I found out a lot by helping FIL research his options for his transplant.
Lucy - really sorry about the keyboard! I did it once to my computer screen (also reading something on BB!)... I suggest a damp sponge! :)
Okay I contacted the manufacturer via a pharmacist friend re: the vitamin K injection. The statement is that this drug and its suspension is 100 per cent from plant derived sources. There are no animal products contained in the current vit. K injection given to babies...
There was a bovine source in the past and it is no longer so according to manufacturers.
I have no problem with it whatsoever. All my children have had it so far and I have already signed the consent for my 4th, unborn, child to have it too. The way I see it, is that yes, there is a miniscule risk of my baby having a problem from not having it - but it is still a risk I am not prepared to take. I was never informed about what is in it but it would have made no difference to me anyway.
From the content of some of the previous posts, it isn't even an issue anymore as cow bile is apparently no longer used. So the question doesn't even need to be raised anymore. I don't think that by making a statement "Vitamin K is made from Cow bile" will have parents up in arms about it and objecting to it.
TBH i find cow bile no more offensive an idea than rennet and we eat a lot of cheese in this house. My mum had to take Premarin for years - that's oestrogens derived from the urine of pregnant mares which are kept in pretty awful (fed and cared for but unable to move much) conditions. She had no choice as it was the only effective drug at the time which she was able to take that prevented her bones thinning to a critical level.
As people above have said - cochineal is bugs, yogurt is bacteria-ridden milk, gelatin is bones and skin boiled down to goop!
At least cow bile can (theoretically) be extracted from the cow without killing it first. I guess this might be more of an issue if one is vegan, but i'm not even vegetarian, so i'm unafraid of the random animal products/parts.
Bec
How cool - you learn something everyday. Love it! Great discussion ladies :)
I told my mum about this today - she tells me she gave her patient Vit-K yesterday (she is a nurse), and they use it not just on babies but on adults to.
Yael... love your previous post & your DH comments.
Reminds me of Yariv when we first went out. We went to a pizza place in St Kilda - and he ordered ham for his pizza.
I said "I thought you don't eat ham" -
he said "I don't"...
I said "that's ham" results in a discussion and confirmation from the pizza guy that it was ham...
and Yariv says "it's really yummy!".
I said "what did you think it was???"....
he says "shredded meat".
d'oh!!!!
now we call it "kosher ham"
Ooooh Deb, that is good info! Thanks!
Lucy I am fairly confident (I have learnt in life one can never be too sure!;)) that what I posted is accurate. I contacted a paed friend and a pharmacist friend and both phoned the practitioner only line of the manufacturer and were given the same info.
So, again, I am 99% sure that the info is correct for those people that may have been frightened by giving a new born a bovine product. For those who weren't it's just one of those interesting things to rack up to the knowledge base!
Deb - my MIL is a pharmacist. I can check with her - and if its 3/3 i would say you are right.
They have often called the manafacturers, or the pharmacy departments at hospitals for me to find out to composition of drugs (normally what type of gelatin for religious reasons - i can take animal geletin if need be, but if you can take the same thing without it then you should)
Good idea Yael - the more info the more informed we are! Thanks... :hug:
I can give you the product sheet that actually says there is bovine bile acids in there
a link I'm sure Kelly won't have a problem with, just in case you want to give me a black mark or whatever it is.
Shannon, I think there is a difference between giving someone a life saving medication no matter what it is derived from and giving a healthy newborn something they don't need. As you can see if you check the ingredients it also contains hydrochloric acid. It's about weighing up advantages over disadvantages and being aware of everything not just part of the story.
Lisa Barrett
Quite a few injections contain hydochloric acid - including local anesethics. It's to change the pH of the injections - and i guarantee everything has passed through the TGA, so why try and scare people?:
As you can see if you check the ingredients it also contains hydrochloric acid.
- thats a matter on opinion, everybody weighs up stats differently and decides what is worth taking a risk on (i.e. not giving and they might have needed it, vs. giving maybe unnecessarily).. just because you state they don't need it doesn't make it fact.:
healthy newborn something they don't need
It can be helpful to bare in mind Sirrhoko tht it is YOUR opinion that vitamin K is unnceccesary. There are times when it may be necessary or in another persons opinion it may be necessary.
Let's share information and own our personal opinions - being aware that our opinions will often differ from others... :hug:
I still don't care what's in it - I am still giving it to my unborn. You can give all the information you like and parents still have the right to choose what they want to do for their family. It is great however to have the information just so you know what is in it.
I am more concerned what aminal parts they put in Devon and hotdogs.
I am off to bed but I can't find anything in your link that says it contains bovine bile.
I did find this : Glyocholic acid, sodium salt is manufactured from the steroid, cholic acid. It is a nature equivalent compound, chemically identical to the natural steroid produced in the liver of many animal species
I think Sirrhoko that glyocholic acid can be chemically reproduced and this is what is contained in this Vit K. I feel quite confident that if the manufacturer states to 3 separate people that there is no bovine content then it would be correct.
But, perhaps Yael's mum has come up with something more.
Deb, i forgot to ask my MIL, but DH is going over there now to pick up something, and is going to ask her
As for the healthy newborn which doesn't need it - what constitutes a traumatic birth?
My DD was born after a less-than-4-hour "true" labour (14 hours since my waters broke), at home, to an undrugged mother. I didn't even push until her ears were already born! Yet she was so shocked, after hours on my perineum, to be suddenly in the world, that her APGAR, which was 9 at birth, went to 7 at 5 minutes and she needed oxygen. Luckily the oxygen (given to her while she rested skin-to-skin on my belly) perked her up, and her Apgar at ten minutes was 10. Nevertheless she STILL has lots (a patch 10cm by 6cm) of stork marks on the back of her head from sitting under my pubic arch for so long, and was obviously shocked at delivery. The midwives told me in hospital she'd have been in SCBU overnight "just to be safe".
So did she need Vit K or not? In terms of circumstance it was probably the least traumatic birth i could have offered her, and yet she wasn't so hot after it. The studies which reveal the (miniscule) childhood leukemia link once again take NO other factors into consideration, such as diet, lifestyle, local pollution, etc. etc. Until controlled studies can be carried out which take these factors into account (and i don't see how they can) the findings will be, at best, unreliable (not wrong, unreliable). I opted to give DD Vit K for the same reason i took the sintocin injection to speed the 3rd stage (after waiting 10 minutes to see if it'd come on it's own) - i did not believe it could harm me, and thus any good it could do was a bonus. I was more concerned with my slightly-blue baby, and would rather the midwives gave me the sintocin, and concentrated on watching how DD was doing than worried about me when a simple injection could alleviate their concerns.
I don't think Vit K should be forced on people, any more than the sintocin for 3rd stage, or any other of the interventions which exist as options, but equally if people don't choose them it shouldn't be because they're frightened of them. Saying there is hydrochloric acid in something is obviously aimed at scaring, but it means little when so many IV suspensions use it to make the drugs more comfortable to recieve (as i understand it the body is a fairly acidic place, injecting alkaline solutions messes with the pH balance and hurts!). I agree that people should be aware of the full picture but "it's made of cow bile" and "it also contains hydrochloric acid" isn't the full picture at all!
Bec