Do you think having children and how many should be based on how much money you earn?

ok,

so this is kind of a vent but I truly am interested in peoples opinions on this subject, I felt general chatter was the more appropriate place for this post as it is a question, but if any mod feels it needs to be moved thats okay too,


I receved a reply from my SIL via email as we had been chatting, we had been chatting about our plans etc and when we want to buy a home and so on, and she said

~quote~
A three or four year plan is the way to go especially if you are planning
on buying in ****** cause it is not cheap, also banks normally wont
loan to people unless they have been in a stable job for at least 2-3
years now. Also you might get a surprise at how stretched things will get
with a extra child in the house and then you have to work out how much
you can afford etc to live without.
~end quote~

this coming from someone who has never owned a home, or had any children, they are due to have their first in a few months,

I just wondered am I feeling offended toward her comments because it is true and perhaps this is how people actually feel in the big wide world,

I dont know,

my opinion, children do not cost that much, yes they do cost more than if you lived on your own but you adapt to your circumstances and budget etc and get bye, that you live to what you have and do what you can for your children but if you cant afford to have to most expensive car seat or cot or brand name clothing you go with out it, am I right ????

I feel confused,

perhaps I am feeling trhis way because I feel the words are my MIL's not SIL's and I hate people talking about us, I am more offended at the last comment about us being suprised as to how much a third child will stretch us financially,

the rest of her reply makes me laugh as she truly has no idea and I know this because we have owned a home before and I have also spoken to banks etc and know what we neeed to do in order to acheive our goal.

what do you think???

do you think she is right in what she is saying or do you think that you make do with what you have and do the best you can.

any opinions will be appreciated and no offence will be taken,

TIA

Amym
I think that you do need to consider your financial position when considering children.
I think it depends on what you want to provide for your children too and the lifestyle you wish to keep.
In saying that you will cope the best way you can regardless of how much $$ you have or how many children you have.
I dont think there is a right or wrong answer to this question and it all depends on your love for the children and what you want out of life in general.

We would love to have about 4 children but of course we cant afford a house to put them all in so will probably stop at two. If circumstances change in the furture then we would maybe look as starting ttc again.

I agree. People always said to me oh kids are so expensive you wont be able to live blahh blahh blahh but theyre not as expensive as everyone makes it out to be! Sure if you add it up over 18 years then it will look like a heap but thats over 18 years! You make do with what you got.
We currently rent and will be until we've finished having kids and i go back to work full time. Theres no way we would afford buying anything in Sydney otherwise..

I agree with your sisters comment, all things being equal.
Maybe she could have phrased it differently, email having no emotion etc.
Only you know your sister (well you know her more than us..) and how she would have meant you to take this comment.

Of course, there are also cases I know personally where all things are not equal, and where waiting to get everything else in order, house, finances etc contributed to (the waiting that is) fertility issues worsening and her eventual successful pg taking 10 years when if they'd tried earlier things may have been easier.

It comes down to what you want, what your values are etc, no one else can decide those for you.

I know personally, we drastically underestimated the financial difference having a baby would make, and I thought I was being overly generous in my estimations before we had DS.

(Young) children don't cost that much that is true, but I am certainly not looking forward to clothing 3 teenagers in 10 years, especially when I wont be back in the work force as such, and having 3 growing teenage boys eat me out of house and home every week ;)

An extra child here would mean a bigger house, bigger car etc something that we can't do on 1 wage. As it is, we would love a bigger car ready to transport around 3 boys to various sports etc but we simply can't afford that and our mortgage.

Love

I mostly dont agree with this. Sure you have to make sure you can provide the necessities for your baby. But from my DH & I point of view (we are not planning to have any more than little Iggy) we thought about waiting so I could do my PhD and he could work more and we could have more money but have decided that we would do it now. DH has dropped some of his work so he is home a lot, and I have taken time off and then will start my PhD in a couple of months from home. We will be reasonably poor (we have a housemate to help pay the rent) for now but have a lot of time to spend with our little one. Sure you need to be able to provide for your child but above that I dont think is necessary. Just my opinion. :)

I believe finances must come in to it. It depends on what you are planning on doing. Renting with one parent staying at home is certainly a cheaper option but once a mortgage comes into the equation everything changes.

Most people who have mortgages these days have to have two incomes in order to pay the average $600 weekly payment (that may just be a figure for Victoria, I'm not sure). For many people that is one whole income gone on the mortgage, then there are child care fees, or after school care, education expenses, general costs of living, car payments, petrol, not to mention food to think about.

For each extra child you have your costs do go up - more food, more clothes, more charges for education and uniforms even at public schools, more ballet or swimming lessons etc.

Then of course when they get to be teenagers they want mobile phones and trendy clothes (actually these things are often wanted way before they get to their teens).... more expense. A few more years on and then you have the added expense of giving them a university education.... and we all want the best for our children don't we?

If I am lucky enough to get a pg to stick I am intending on just having one child.... this would be the case even if I was younger. My DF has a step daughter so we pay child support, we have a mortgage and we both work full time. Adding just one extra child to this will stretch our finances but we would still be OK I think. If I was to have twins we would probably have to sell our home and rent until they went to school as we would find it very difficult to pay the mortgage and two sets of day care fees as well as general living expenses. If one of us was to stay home then we could not afford the mortgage and living expenses, so we would have to rent.

Anyway, I do think money comes into it.

I think that finances are something to consider when planning kids.. only really to ensure that you will be able to afford to live off one income for the time that one of you is not working and you are waiting for a childcare spot to become available before returning to work... that you can afford to paythe rent/mortgage on a home of a suitable size and all that... but really, you make do with what you have dont you?
I guess it also depends on your lifestyle - do you want to have the best of everything or is second hand stuff ok, do you want to go on lots of holidays etc... I mean, Claire is not that expensive. i think its just that we are earning heaps less now with me not working which was hard to get used to.
We're definately not rolling in cash.. We've got a mortgage, and I am not working, so its just DH's income we live off - and yeah its tight but not impossible - we just have to really watch our spending habits. So i suppose that yeah money is something to look at because you want to be able to make sure you can provide your kids with everything they need. I know that two years ago, we were not in any financial position for me to be a sahm.

I think finances do come into it, but not because children "cost alot" per se in terms of handing over cash for this and that every day.
For us, where we've noticed it is in our reduced earning capacity.
We are not prepared to put our kids in childcare full time, which means one or the other of us has to be at home. Later in the year when my maternity leave finished I'll only be going back to work part time. When Emily was a baby DH worked part time.
And I guess the more kids you have the longer your "out of action" until they reach school age.
We've decided to stop at two simply because by the time our youngest is school age and I can go back to full time work, I'll be 38 years old. On balance, when we think about the other things we want for our family in the future (house, decent education primarily) we will be hard pressed to do those things if I'm out of the workforce for too long.
Just our situation, everyone's is different. It's a tough decision.

I do think finances come into it.. i don't think any old tom,**** or harry should just have a baby because they want to or feel like it if they only have $15 to live on for a fortnight pre-baby! What happens if the child falls very ill and needs hospital attention for months on end? I mean these were all things we considered when we decided to start trying. I don't neccesarily think you need to be made out of money, because it is true you adjust to whatever income you have.. but i do think you need to be sensible about it! And i don't think when people tell us that 'Gee.. kids are expensive' are referring to their initial years of life - i think it's more so when they are older.. constantly growing out of shoes and clothes, paying for school and books, paying for sports and dance classes, tutoring, supporting a few of their whims.. etc.. Do you remember what it was like being in school and always wanting clothes to stay in fashion or to be cool and stay with the trends? It's going to be worse for our kids! I don't know about you ladies out there, we have 4 morgages to pay off, plus all the other things we have comitted ourselves to in life.

I agree with RayRay, so much depends on your values and no one can decide them for you.

We can't technically afford our third child but for us life is more about intagibles than material wealth. I'm not saying everyone should live like this though. For example, we value the fact that i am a SAHM than owning our own home (we rent). We value providing our children with the best education that is available than stuff like new furniture, techno gadgets etc.

These are just 2 example of intangibles that we make huge sacrifices for. you can't touch them or see them like a house but they are way more important to us.

Fortunately DH is in a very well paid job with a very bright future so, sofar we have been ok financially, just... it's like God (or whatever) is granting us just enough money to get by... members of the Mastermind group who know about Money Miracles will know what I mean ;) So we didn't hestitate in having a third child despite not being able to technically afford one.

I think so much comes back to your beliefs... spiritual or otherwise. We simply have faith that if we are making good decisions and are good people all will fall into place. yeah, maybe we are deluded... but maybe no more deluded than my parents who did everything by the book financially and accumulated wealth, a home, a boat, holidays etc... but lost it all when they got divorced. To me there is little security in "stuff"... it can all be lost overnight... at least no one can take away my DDs private education, and her absolute LOVE of school and learning.

Sorry I've waffled on a bit here...

But to answer your question: yes, children do cost a LOT. it's always better to over-estimate than under-estimate... but then again... love will always find a way :)

We are taking our finances into consideration for our future plans, I don't think our first baby will make too much of an impact, but once we think about having more than one (and we hope for four) things change. We would need to consider a bigger house as we are already going to be cramped with one baby and if we do have four we will need a bigger car.

I don't think it is the cost of providing for the children as such that you need to worry about but you need to consider the bigger picture to be able to acheive what you want, but your sister could have talked to you about it in a conversation not an email.

We actually found that having the first child had the greatest impact... you had to buy all the basics (which subsequent children could then use). A good tip is to buy good quality items that will last the distance if you plan to have more children.... and gender neutral items... I did these things intuitively and am reaping the rewards now :)

Well we've done the 'unthinkable' and are having our 4th child. Bath is so right when she says 'techinically not being able to afford it' but I don't want to regret not having this child so we can be better off financially. So we now have to get the larger car etc and all the other costs that a child has. But I think that it all depends on the lifestyle you want for those children - if you want the private schools and yearly 2wk holidays, then yeah, having more than two (or 3 if you are in a high income) would mean you have to sacrifice having a large family to keep the lifestyle. But if those things aren't important to you, then go with your heart.

I saw once on a Dr Phil show that no matter how much your income is, you will always spend the same percentage of it before putting any in savings. EG if you earn $50k and spend $45k of it every year, you will still do the same if you earn $100k, kwim? It is simply a matter of knowing how to effectively manage what you do have.

Oh, and I don't know what she is on about with the banks, they seem to just love throwing money at people to get them to take a loan with them. LOL

Bathsheba, its like you are reading my mind, I wish I could have said it that well, you said it perfectly and I couldnt agree more.

We are the same we value things differently, with my SIL she values her 'stuff' very highly and wants to live a life of holidaying and shopping, so for them having a big family is not suitable for the lifestyle they want to live, me I want a big family, I want family to come first and please dont take that the wrong way I value everyones opinions and beleifs we are all very different and thats what makes us interesting,

I am not one to really care alot if we dont have all the flashy furniture and cars etc, I am happy renting, I just like the bills to be paid and food on the table and thats about it,

I have been on both sides I had Peiter when we were dead broke, some weeks we couldnt afford nappies but had to find the money somewhere and it was really really hard on that side of it I would not wish that on anyone, it puts so much extra stress on you as a mum and just a person in general,

I think in one way finances are important in that you need to have enough to provide for your child but if that means going without new clothes each month or not shopping all the time etc then that is fine as I regard that as non nessesity, but having been in the position we were in when we first had Peiter it was not a nice feeling at all, and if we had have planned things it would have been very different ( he was a suprise bubba )

we are blessed now with DH working in a fantastic job with so much room to grow he is on a very high wage and we are in a postion to afford another child and save at the same time so we are lucky in that way now but having said that I dont think you have to have loads of money to have children.

My SIL would have meant me to take offence she is a know it all LOL and loves to be the first to say things iukwim, I was offended but not offended if that makes sence because I understand what kind of life is important to her and her DH, I dont judge her on that but its hard for her to understand how non important 'stuff' and material things are to me and DH, we have a crappy lounge and a banged up dining suite LOL but thats okay, we plan on getting something a little better once we have saved a little more, but in reality its ot something that bothers me alot, her house looks like a show home its beautiful, they are only renting but have spent thousands upon thousands on furniture etc but again I dont think badly of them because it has made them happy.

ETA Sherie I also feel the same as you we want 4 children for the same reason you said and I dont know if I can finish having my babies at 3 kwim so its on a we will wait and see basis LOL and yeah I had to laugh at her comment about the bank casue I know how unture that really is, she is a bit of a drama queen and loves to make things worse than they actually are hehe

I know what you mean by 'unthinkable' Sherie... most of our friends think we are crazy having more children and not even owning our home. Pfft! I say. Paying off a mortage is just as much a "gamble" as our choices.... interest rates are bound to rise and what's going to happen to all the people who can't afford to make them? They will have to sell/downsize etc...

Please, don't get me wrong, I think it's very financially savvy to budget wisely and plan for your future etc. But at the end of the day (I think) living the "mainstream dream" of homeownership etc means that many families are sacrificing the intangibles of life (being at home when your kids get home from school etc) for something, that, at the end of the day doesn't ensure any more quality of life for a family.

DH and I always say to friends and ourselves (when things get tough money-wise) that "oh well, we can always afford to go bush and live a simple life and that would be ok...". Sure we have financial goals... but the main goal is that we, as a family unit, do not place undue pressure and stress on each other to achieve material wealth. There is more to life :)

ETA: missed you last post Amym.... reading it now!

I was beginning to feel like a lone duck until I read Bath's reply and couldnt agree more. I think sometimes the more emphasis that is placed on money and material gains, the more important it becomes to you. Darren and I are lucky to share the same philosophy in life and while we do like having the latest things, its not the be all and end all. We have cheap family holidays (camping) make wonderful memories for the children with wonderful birthdays and parties and they want for nothing....all this with 4 children and my darling husband secretly hoping i will say yes to a 5th! I so believe in throwing out gratitude for the blessings we have, and we always seem to make do! So while your SIL might have a point, you arent jumping into anything naively, and I would probably resent the implication that you arent considering all your options....getting a homeloan is not the most important thing in the world.

Jo

Good on you Jo :) It sounds like you have a wonderful family and some very happy kids. Yep, home loans are over-rated* LOL and guess what! My DH is a banker! He can see the craziness in most families forking out thousands and thousands in interest (to banks) to the detriment of a truely wealth-building investment like education. Educate yourself and the world is your oyster. Deny the advertiser's seductive arguements to soothe your ego with purchasing material goods that do little other than to help you keep up with the Jones.

* Over the past 20 years if the average family had bought shares (blue chip) instead of a home-loan they would be vastly more wealthy then they are today. This is where we have our nest egg.... and no repayments.. just dividends :)

this is a really tough call to make - i can see where your sister is coming from in terms of getting yourself set up, but it's not the be all and end all of life! we were lucky in that i moved out of my parents house when i was single - and comparing the cost of a mortgage and the cost of renting - it turned out to be a whole $7 per week difference - paying it off got me some equity in the house, which meant we ended up gettins a nice amount of money back when we sold the house! i bought my house and had been paying it off a couple of years when DH and i got together. his brother passed away and DH inherited the family home (and the mortgage on it!) - so we sold my house, got rid of the mish mash of cars we had, and got one good car - which we chose on the basis we wanted a car big enough for a family. the amount we pay on our mortgage now is a lot less than a cheap rental in the city areas... we both had furniture that we'd been given by family, so we kept what we wanted, sold the rest of it cheaply to a few people we knew were struggling financially, and replaced the furniture with a lot of matching pieces. we're making the most of our double income to get our house establisehed while we go through assisted conception, knowing that once we have a child, my income will be halved for 6 months, and then gone for the remainder of my mat leave. i will be returning to work after 12 months, but only for two days per week - this is primarily because i know that i have a great job at the moment, it's really flexible with hours and things - and when my family are all at school, i will have something to return to during school ours - but i'll admit that i know i'm lucky in that factor - not everyone can work around their children like that!

i believe that money cannot be the deciding factor in choosing to have a family - it will have an impact, but everyone learns to live within their own means - and your financial situation now when your choosing to have your family won't necessarily reflect what it is going to be 10 or 15 years down the track when you have teenagers eating you out of house and home!

I'd just like to add that although it's very important to take finances into consideration when planning a family none of us knows what is ahead of us, so regardless of our good intentions, life often does not go to plan. Just because your financial situation is good now, does not mean it will be in the future. Because of this I think smaller families in this ever increasing expensive world that we now live in is the way to go. We also live in an overpopulated world and we are running out of resources, we don't have enough water (well we don't in Victoria) so we should also keep that in mind too.

Fifteen years ago I got married to someone I expected to be with forever. We both had great career prospectives and were both earning well above the average wage. We planned to buy a house and have two kids and I would get to stay home with them.

Seven years ago, I was still married, no kids had arrived but we had the house. Our mortgage payment was similar to paying rent.

Five years ago I was still married to the same man but due to a work accident he could no longer work. His body repaired but his mind did not. I was the only bread winner in the house - he was in no mental state to look after children so it was very lucky that we hadn't managed to have any.

Three years ago I was a single woman easily able to cope with life on my own because I had kept working through all the years and had worked my way up to a good salary. Had I had children I would have been struggling financially as I would not have kept my career, nor would I be recieving a cent from my ex. I had no mortgage and had money in the bank from selling our house.

Now I'm engaged with a step daughter & hoping for a child of our own and although I'm on better money than ever I know that it could change in the blink of an eye. I have a mortgage again but because of the rise in property prices in the years I was out of the property market my new home cost double what my first home cost (and it's smaller and on a block half the size of my first one) therefore our mortgage is twice what my original one was so both our wages are required to pay it.

I am 41 and because of that have to plan for retirment and part of that is to own our own home. If another child does come into our lives then we just may have to change those plans.

The thing I've learnt most from life is that you really never do know what lies around the corner. Who knows what my situation will be in another 5 years...... certainly not me.

IMO

I think money should play a part in the decision of how many children to have.

No point having 3 kids if you can afford to give them the best (and by best i mean private schooling, a nice house to come home to (either rented or our own, thats not the point), music/sport/art lessons, trips and activities, equipment for school and uni like laptops, family holidays etc. A lot of you will 'kill' me for this, but i want my kids to be able to keep up with their friends, even on the superficial stuff like clothes and being able to go to the shops or movies with their friends!)

Yes its more about love than money, but i want my kids to have the best of both worlds.

Having grown up with no $$, not being able to do stuff like go on camps or school activities, wearing opp shop clothes to highschool, living in houses that were only just livable and not having a computer to do VCE work on when the stupid teachers made a rule about no hand written Cats... anyway, i might have a biased view of all this.

I agree that your financial situation should be considered before deciding on more children. My 9yo DD is costing us a fortune at the moment - and not really on clothing! It's all of the other stuff she does!

DH wants another bub, but I know that will mean buying a new car for a start, and we would have to seriously look at our storage situation at home, and either buy a new shed, or put shelves up somewhere, otherwise we wouldn't have room for another!

I agree that mortgages cost a LOT of money compared to renting, although I don't miss having to ask for permission whenever I wanted to hang something on a wall, or when we wanted to buy DD a puppy, or when we wanted cable internet connected, etc etc. Also I have the security of knowing that if and when we move in the future, it will be OUR choice and not our landlord's! So there are definitely intangible benefits of having your own home. I also invest in the stockmarket, so does that mean I get the best of both worlds? I think so, seeing as my stockmarket investing is allowing me to stay home with bub and paying me more than my job used to (that's what equity can do for you). Yay!

Emz I sympathise and relate completely and of course how we grow up shapes how we become and the priorities that we have.

Its difficult balancing what our children want and need...I can remember never having the 'right' shoes, clothes etc so I probably spent more time hankering for them than on things that would actually help to build my character and esteem. Consequently Im always a bit funny about making sure the kids have 'things'. Its a balancing act that I feel i have to juggle with talks, programs, and guests where their lives are very different from ours and not so priviledged. I dont want the kids to take anything for granted. I believe our job is to nurture the spirit of our children and provoke their conscience, not just provide the material goods in our very consumer driven world. Its a bit off topic, sorry Amy for hijacking!

Jo

My mum used to say all the time "if u wait until u can afford to have kids, u will never have them". I feel like we definately cant afford to have kids but number 2 is on its way now. Also it never seems to matter how much my husband and I make we always seem to spend it all and thats it. In the past 8 months we have gone up in pay $20,000 a year and we cant seem to find where that has gone (that is soooooo bad isnt it but it really is how much our combined incomes have gone up). Daycare has gone up too mind u to full time and a % has gone down put still $20,000. Its insane. Sorry that was my vent for the day. Please continue.

I think its all about sacrifces......as you have more children the new pair of black stilletos or the sat night dinner @ $150 becomes unthinkable....i think if you found those things hard to 'give up' then maybe having lots of kids isnt an option.....

My DH works two jobs, i spend a lot of time on my own with the girls....but we live comfortably. We could just live on the one wage but DH and i want to be able to take the girls on hols, or have foxtel in our home....so we've both made the sacrifices.....
I agree with astrolady....babies, toddlers dont cost much day to day. But teenagers - another story. Even schooling can be xpensive, my sis is always saying her DD needs $5 here or $10 there for some school activity....

My mum and dad were by no means 'loaded' but decided to have 4 children. Mum said there were times she could barely afford a loaf of bread for our school lunches.....but they got by........paying off the mortgage and having a brand new car wasnt what it was all about....taking us girls on holidays to QLD, or being able to buy us a nice xmas gift was more important to them.
You do get those times back again, mum and dad recently went o/s again, and both have new cars......Its about what your willing to sacrafice......and for how long.

Precisely mbear... DH and I are really really good at delaying gratification ;) We don't subscribe to the "gotta have it NOW" mentality that is so prevalent these days. We just accept that after our last child has left home (and hopefully gone onto the university of their choice) then it will be our time to enjoy our money. And if all we can afford is a little shack outback then we'll be happy because we both enjoy the simple pleasures of life anyhow.

I had a mixed upbringing BTW. My childhood was very comfortable materially... best house in the street, pools, junior golf lessons, weekends spent sailing on my dad's boat... but my parents ended up arguing over money and split. After that things were very different... we were moved all over the countryside and struggled to get anything much at all. However this was very character building like Jo said. I learnt to appreciate money for the first time in my life... I taught myself the basics of sewing... learnt how to cook... made my own entertainment etc As they say "necessity is the mother of invention" and I honestly think that giving everything to your kids on a platter is doing them a diservice. But also like Jo said, it's a balancing act, I also believe in buying the basics (eg at least one "in" outfit etc) so that they feel like they fit in with their peers. However as long as you help your child develop a strong self esteem buying the 'right stuff' isn't as important. For example: I do a lot of Op Shopping. My DD's wardrobe has more Op Shop bought clothes than not... one day one of her friends commented on one of her handbags when I was taking them to the movies. I told the friend that we bought it from an Op Shop for $3... at first my DD was mortified... she gave me the most horrified stare! LOL but then the friend said "Wow! which one???" (Savers) and now word has got around about Op Shopping at my DD's private school and many of her friends are now doing it! (much to the relief of their parents who are mostly making huge sacrifices to pay the fees as well). Anyhow, my DD learnt a valuble lesson: Don't be too proud to be yourself, your real friends will always accept you for who you are. I'm not sure she would have as healthy self esteem if I subscribed to the "pay-what ever-you-have-to-pay-to-buy-the-right-clothes-so-that-you-can-fit-in" mentality.

Regarding renting: you have to pick the right kinda house: preferably an older style so that the owner isn't likely to notice/care if you want to put a picture hook in the wall etc. We have had a pet, put in several new phone lines, put up shelves, replaced curtains, put in vegie patches etc all without asking and our landlord loves us. They have made it clear they want us to stay for a looong time... BUT like satya said, who knows what's around the corner... they might have to sell for reasons beyond their control... DH and I are mentally prepared for that... we could take it in our stride... infact we would turn a negative into a positve and probably move somewhere interesting as my DH has work opportunities galore both interstate and over seas. We prefer the flexibility of just up and leaving to be honest... but I agree it's not for everyone.

I'm with Bath and Jo, all the way.

I would never let money stop me from having a much wanted child. Things are going to be harder for us when this little one arrives and we go down to one income - but for us me being at home with my children is far more important than material things - cars, holidays, clothes etc.

I am a firm believer in the philosophy that we just make do with what we've got, somehow it all just works out. If we couldn't afford our mortgage tomorrow and lost our house then yes, I would be upset and disappointed but I know there are far more important things in life.

Before i had DD DP had a pretty good job and i had a good one. We'd planned for me to care for the baby for the first year and then look at how we could juggle childcare so we could both work.

DP lost his job when DD was 1 week old (redundancy). We split up when she was 8 weeks old. I am now a single SAHM living entirely on state benefits. I don't smoke, i don't drink, i don't buy new clothes (only 2nd hand for me, DD gets some new stuff if i can't get it elsewhere). We eat really well because i believe that's important. I cannot afford to save because i have EXACTLY what i need to live on and no more. My house is rented, the council pay my rent.

I have nothing just now. THe most valuable thing in my flat is this laptop which might be worth 100GBP, though possibly not since the coffee incident ;)

I look around myself at others with masses of cash and houses and things and yes, sometimes it feels like i'm lost on the ocean. But i am so aware that when i die everything which i have amassed in this life except from my children and their love will be worth nothing. Yeah, inheritance can be a wonderful gift if you're able to give it, but so long as my funeral is paid for and my debts are settled, i'd rather leave Esme the inheritance of having the knowledge and confidence to make her own way in the world.

So while i would not go out and get pregnant again while my situation looks like this, if i fell pregnant (i have an IUS fitted) anyway, i'd welcome the baby.

I don't think you ever HAVE enough money, because money isn't for having. It's for using, and however much you have you will use. You can live how i do and i would call it living, not just surviving. Things are very tight, but i love a challenge and am sensible-head when it comes to finances.

It kind of bothers me to think "kids are expensive". It makes them sound like a commodit.! You'd never hear people say "oh i don't want to get married because husbands are so expensive!". The idea of a child is about cost, the reality of a child is about love and joy and the privilege of knowing such an amazing person right from their very beginnings.

Bec

I must say I gotta sit on the fence here - I am with Bath all the way with her wise words on stuff and whether we actually need it all, but I can see where Emz is coming from too.

Personally I think if your financial situation is causing you personal distress (ie: you are fighting with DH cause you have no money, he is at the pub cause he has no job, your landlord is $hit and you live in an unsafe/unsantiary situation, you have no money for car insurance and then you have an accident and are financially cleaned up, etc) then maybe you need to think twice about bringing a kid/kids into that kind of situation. Equally, if you live the high life and are used to having EVERYTHING and have the attitude that "having a child will mean you will have to SACRIFICE and OMG it will be SOOO HARD how will you COPE" then maybe you should also rethink having kids.

So I think that, generally speaking, rather than how much money you have being the determining factor, your personal and emotional wellbeing and ability to raise children in a safe, secure and loving home should be the decider.

That said, to open a can of worms : is right that someone who "A Current Affair" labels a "supermum" with 15 kids (ie: has that many kids that she and hubby could have no hope of feeding and clothing on their own, let alone paying for private school fees!) have their personal desire to have lots of children supported by tax payers and lauded as some kind of hero? Now I am a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of welfare because I believe every person has a basic human right to food, shelter and security, and in no way do I believe that children should suffer for their parent's decisions, but what do people think about that kind of situation? It is extreme I know, but just as some people chose to have one child so they can afford to give their kid the best of everything (this was my parent's approach) there is the other extreme out there.....

Hoobly - LOVE what you said about not liking people commenting on kids being expensive when no one comments that a partner is expensive. Let's face it - a wife is expensive and so is a husband - but we get married anyone. Along that line of thinking, not many people bat an eye or think twice about the THOUSANDS of dollars couples spend on the wedding with NO guarentee that the marriage is going to survive. I also liked the comment about money being for using not having and however much you have is how much you will use. It is SO true that most couples/families will unknowing/unconsciously up their spending to match a raise.
I also loved the comments Bathsheba made and agree completely. I am a big believer in understanding and knowing what is a NEED and what is a WANT. DH and I will definitely have three children and more than likely continue to have a fourth. I will start teaching our children very early to understand the difference between a need and a want. DH and I will always do what we have to in order to provide what our children NEED - beyond that we will see that they get a few of their WANTS given to them as well as gifts. After that, it is up to them to get the rest of their WANTS. I purchased my own Cabbage Patch Doll when I was about 8 or 9 years old and also paid for half of my 10 speed bicycle when I wanted it. I simply saved my pocket money.
DH and I have very close friends who have 7 children and successfully live on one income. They own their home (a 3 bedroom home) and the kids have everything they need and also a lot of their wants. So I don't think that money should be the end all be all of having children. You do need to be aware of your situation and know how you would handle different situations that may arise, but I don't think finances should be the only deciding factor for having children or determining how many to have.

I can assure you Roryrory than welfare is little enough money than anyone who CAN raise 15 kids on it IS a hero. It's hard enough with 1.

Bec

In that instance Roryrory, I definately do not see her as any sort of hero. Anyone that would voluntarily have 15 children (and lets face it, I am sure she figured out after the first couple about the birds and the bees) knowing that they would have to rely on welfare is just plan stupid! This is definately not an attack on people that rely on welfare, I just think that if you can't afford to support that many children you should stop having them.

Bec, yes the amount of welfare single mothers receive is rediculous, but you have choosen to take control of the amount of children you choose to raise in your current financial situation, personally I feel that makes 'you' the hero not this numbnut woman.

I would love to have 4 children, luckily I am in the type of career where I can go back to work one day a week (sat or sun) and earn really good money if it came to it. But I know if I want to be a fulltime SAHM, I will probably have to stop after this one is born. I also agree the first child has the biggest impact on your finances.

For me, money is a consideration, but not the be all and end all. It is something you have to think about as financial stress will affect the children you already have. If mum and dad are worried about money then it might become a stressed home instead of a happy one. You also have to think about your own priorites - if an extra child might prevent you being a SAHM or mean you have to work full time instead of part time, or maybe it is the difference bw private and public school for the existing kids, then you have to decide what is the best for the family as a whole. For some the love of another beautiful child means everything else is worth it, for others that's not the case. It's an individual thing, but I think the consideration should still be there so you can make the right decision for your circumstances.

I think you definitely need to take finances into consideration, love is the biggest part of raising a family, but I also want all of my child to have the best opportunities in life and unfortunately that costs money.

On the other hand, I think you need to consider your family before making financial decisions. For example, DH and I would absolutely LOVE to move back to Mornington, but all of the houses that we like would require us to double our mortgage..at least...we are not prepared to do this as we plan on having other children and don't want to be stressed about money when I won't be working.

How are you going with this Amy? Any further thoughts or words with your SIL?
Let us know :)