Parenting Orders - any info?

Hi all... this is something Shel and I don't know all that much about... parenting orders...

The archaic laws in Australia means the non-bio parent can't be on the birth certificate or considered a parent (except in W.A. and I think maybe ACT as well) so how have you gone about getting a parenting order? Have you got one? Do you think it's important? Does it make a difference if you have one or not? (I assume it is important and it does make a difference but I actually don't know!)

We know the standard stuff... like what a parenting order is and what it does, but I've heard rumours about the process of actually getting one... and we're interested in hearing about others who have gone about getting one. When should you start preparing? What is the actual prcess and how long does it usually take? And is the process shortened if the bio-parent agrees? Or does it not matter? I think Parenting Orders are federal law, so I'm just assuming the process its standard for all states?

If you're not a same-sex couple, but know something about the process please reply as well!

Hi

My understanding that in NSW at least you can have the non-bio mothers name on the birth certificate - there is a space at the bottom of the certificate that indicates the name of the person who registered the birth, so if the non-bio mother does this, than her name should go in this bit. I know it is not the best situation, but at least it is something. Though I am not 100% sure if there is restrcitions around who can and can't register the birth with BDM (Births, Deaths & Marriages)

Parenting orders are issued through the Federal Family Court. I have heard that it is an expensive process.

Another option, though not always enforceable is to have your wishes/ plans about your children clearly set out in both wills and to have both power of attorney and enduring guardanship orders set up for both you and your partner. You can also have a deed drawn up between you that sets out your roles and responsibilities. While these things are not as strong as parenting orders, as they could be challenged by other family members if something ever happens to you, they are at least something.

My partner and I have done the above and once our child is born, we might then consider the parenting order stuff. We sought advice from a great solictor who has expereience in the law around same sex couples.

We are going through IVF, and my partner has co-signed as many forms as possible, and her name is also on my file, just as a way of having another bit of evidence that we are in this together. She also comes to all of our appointments, so again our clinic could testify that we were in this together. We also have a great GP, who has put details in our medical files about our relationship and there is a note in my partners file about us going thru IVF.

We figure that if anything ever happened all of this extra 'proof' of both of our relationship and our intent to have children is good to have.

Hope this helps

Hi all

We sought legal advice and have the forms already, but they cant be lodged until the child is born. As far a parenting order goes we think it is really important. Things like schools, drs, hospitals etc will not even talk to the non bio mother without a parenting order. So its definately something to think about.

Also, Belin.....any chance of getting the name of your solicitor and where they are based? We are having a real hard time getting someone that is decent.

Claire and Donna

Hi guys.

I am a barrister, who practice has particular emphasis on family law. I have completed numerous agreements from co-parenting, sperm/egg donor, anonymous donor, separated co-parents, etc.

Parenting orders are Federal Law - orders made under the Family Law Act 1975. You can have them made by consent. Birth registrations are state-(territory) based, and as such have different requirements.

Unfortunately I can't give out legal advice over the internet, but I can direct you to particular places that might be able to help you.

If you have any queries, please contact me.

My previous partner (with whom I had two children) and I always spoke of parenting agreements, guardianship etc but did not ever actually do it. In terms of dealing with childcare, school, doctors etc we never had any issues with us both being recognized as parents, signing consent forms etc. I still think parenting agreements are a very good idea but also wnated to say that our expereince was very positive in terms of the no-bio mother (me) being recogized without any legal documentation.

Hi Claire

The solictor we saw was in Newcastle, and unfortunately he is no longer practising - we had all of our documents sorted out about 2 years ago when we first seriously thought about having children.
You could try contacting the gay & lesbian rights lobby in Syd they might be able to give you a lead. Not sure what there number is or website is but there should be a link from the acon website http://www.acon.org.au.
Ins Syndey there also used to be a group called 'Rainbow Babies' not sure if it is still around - been a few years since I lived in Syd, but again the rights lobby could probably tell you.
Good Luck

hello everyone, we have been doing some more research on the parenting rights of the non bio partner and came up with some info, as we are in nsw we were specifically searching for that but this link will give you a fair idea of what your up for http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlin.../samesex_index
so, we hope this gives you a good run down on in. As for us, we are travelling along wonderfully, still both working hard so we can get things to a point where we can initiate our future family together.
We hope your all well
Cheers D&M

Hey everyone,

We have copies of some parenting orders, so if you want a copy let me know and I will email you them

Claire

hey everyone,

we have a 7 yo and don't have any parenting orders. She still has contact with her Dad, who is on the birth certificate (I was going through a total denial stage!). I'm was under the impression that you can't get parenting orders for a third parent - does anyone know anything about that?

Practically, we have had no issues at all. School and Child Care and Hospitals and everywhere we go recognises my partner as our child's parent without any documentation. She is listed on all forms as the second parent (her dad is there too as an emergency contact, or even third parent in some cases).

We have wills and powers of attorney to protect us in case anything happens, but we also make sure that we're very up front and discuss with our extended families and friends what we would like to happen should something happen to us.

Good luck with the parenting orders - I'd be interested to hear any stories too, because we'll probably go down that path if we ever manage to conceive! (at end of TWW but not optimistic).

Clark

Dear Forum Members

I am in the process of initiating IVF with a known sperm donor. I am based in Melbourne and I am struggling to find an experienced solicitor who can advise me on writing up a parenting agreement and explain the legal implications of both parties.

I have tried legal referral services and they kept giving me the wrong names of law firms which had nothing to do with family law. So I am hoping to get more information through this medium. You can reach me on natas.natas@yahoo.com if you would like to contact me directly. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks Natas

Hey Natas,

Have you tried the advertising section of LOTL (lesbians on the loose) magazine? We came across a few solicitors in there. Even though most of them are Sydney based i am sure you could ring or email them to find someone suitable in your area. The other alternative is the call the family court and see if they have any legal teams on their register that deal with your sort of situation.

Good luck and if i can help you in any way please dont hesitate to ask.
Claire

Thanks Curmon for your guidance on my earlier question.

In the meantime, does anyone have any advice based on their own experience with regards to using anonymous sperm donor in Australia. Are there any clinics here in Australia who deal with anonymous sperm donors (sourced locally or internationally)?
How does the Registrar of Births react when you lodge a birth certificate with one biological parent missing off the paperwork?


thanks

Natas

Natas,

We are currently undergoing IVF through the RPA fertility clinic in Sydney using an anonymous donor. I know that they are no longer taking new clients due to the shortage of donors, but i am happy to try and answer any questions you may have.

As far as lodging the birth certificate with only one biological parent, there are plenty of single mums out there that would not know who the father of their child is, either blank is left in the space or unknown. I know that when it gets to our turn to fill in the paper work for the birth certificate we will be hyphenating our childs surname to inlude both mine and my partners and we will also be writing my partners in the "fathers" part as well......wether they accept it or not who knows but at least we would have tried.

Claire

Hi Claire

Thanks for your note. So that is interesting - RPA in Sydney deals with anonymous sperm donors. In the past, would they allow the import of sperm from sperm banks overseas? Or do they only deal with local donors?

Out of interest, in my research, I found that quite a few clinics in Australia do not deal with anonymous sperm donors. Do you know of any which do?

kind regards

Nat

Every clinic i know only allow known donors to be used and they would have to have a series of counsiling sessions with their current partner as well. Its to make sure that everyone understands what they are getting into, now and in the future.

Merry Chrismas
Claire

I think the lack of sperm donors mean that there just isn't the possibility of unknown sperm donors in most areas... though we must have got pretty lucky because we were able to use an unknown donor through our clinic... no donors are anonymous these days though becaue of the law that allows the child to contact the sperm donor when they turn 18.

Leasha.. congrats on your pg, I hvnt been in for awhile and just read that u were expecting.. so again.. congrats and we wish you and ur partner all the best..

Dear Claire / Curmon,
How are you doing? I was wondering whether you could send me a copy of a parenting order, which you referred to in an earlier posting? My email address is natas.natas@yahoo.com.
Also, does anyone have a contact name and phone number for a good solicitor in sydney / nsw who is experienced in putting together parenting orders? If so, I would really appreciate the contact details. Cheers Nat

We don't have a parenting order for DS who is nearly 4. I (non-bio mum) have admitted him to hospital twice, enrolled him in kindergarten and school, no questions asked, no problems whatsoever. I receive FTB for him as well.

DP is on his birth certificate, we had to provide a stat dec saying we used a known donor, and "not stated" appears under father. I wanted to register the birth so that I could be listed as the "informant" on the bottom, but it wasn't allowed.

Dear nhklh

I was pleased to read your posting. I am considering using a known donor but they do not want to be exposed to any legal ramifications if they are listed on the birth certificate. I wasnt sure if you could put "not stated" under father......b/c I thought that the registrar of birth / marriages .... could question you for not including the father's details if they are known.......

Were you advised by a solicitor to write "not stated" for father on the birth certificate. Is it acceptable, normal practice to use a stat declaration if one chooses not to put the father's details?

kind regards
Nat

Hi
Just a curiosity question. What will you tell your kids when they ask or want to know about who fathered them? I only ask as my sister in law has no name on her birth certificate for 'father' and she has found it hard to deal with in her life particularly when questioned by employers etc about it.
Jen

Hi Macca.

We used an unknown donor, and it will be very open in our house as to how our little one came about. The donor is available to contact once our child turns 18. We have some information that we can tell them.

But TBH, I'm not sure why an employer would need to now about who fathered a child...?

Hi Macca, my two sons were conceived using a known donor. They have also been told the truth that a nice man helped their mummies have them by giving us his sperm etc (at an age appropriate level). The donor lives interstate and as such was not part of our daily lives. When my eldest was about four or five he wanted to know more about the "nice man". We told him his name, they spoke on the phone and then visited in person (there had been previous visits but without it being made explicit that he was the donor). The donor sees the boys once or twice a year when we are in the same state. Like Alisia I cannot imagine why an employer would ever need a birth cert. I guess if there was some reason, then in the case of my children they would just explain that they have two mums but only one is on the birth certificate because of the silly Australian laws at the time!

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Were you advised by a solicitor to write "not stated" for father on the birth certificate. Is it acceptable, normal practice to use a stat declaration if one chooses not to put the father's details?

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When we filled out the form for the birth certificate I think we wrote "donor" under father. They sent it back, requesting the stat dec. The stat dec had to declare that DP conceived via self-insemination, she has never lived with or had a relationship with the donor, and they have never had sex with each other.

When the birth certificate came it had DP's name under mother, and "not stated" under father.

We are in SA by the way.

When DP first applied for family tax benefit at Centrelink we had to meet with a social worker (we knew we had to do this, and told THEM that's what we had to do), tell them there was nobody legally responsible for child support, write a statement, and away we went.

If you have the donor's name on the birth certificate they will go after him for child support etc. Our donor's name is on NOTHING. We do not tell anyone at all his name.

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What will you tell your kids when they ask or want to know about who fathered them?

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The truth, of course.

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I only ask as my sister in law has no name on her birth certificate for 'father' and she has found it hard to deal with in her life particularly when questioned by employers etc about it.

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I have never ever had an employer see my birth certificate, I can't imagine why this would be necessary, and what business it could be of theirs to query an employee's parentage.

Im not sure why her employer questioned her on this as it was only a story she told me in passing. I was mainly curious to know how others would deal with it from a parents perspective. Knowing my sister in law and how it has effected her prompted my question. At the end of the day does anyone really know how not knowing who made you can effect your life regardless of how lovingly you have been raised and cared for?

Macca... in a way I think it depends on the circumstances.

For example... my mum's biological mum (she was adopted) doesn't know who mums biological father is. Mum does get upset and was very angry, as she'd love to know something, anything. A name at least.

In our case, yes we won't have his name on the birth certificate. But its different circumstances. And we'll be honest about it... we don't know, but we can all find out once our child turns 18.

As for children born thanks to sperm donors... I think most of the issues you hear about start when parents don't tell their child they were born via a sperm donor (a straight relationship problem... not so easy in our case :P) and then tell them when they are 12 or 13... they have thoughts about who their parent is, if its not this person they've know for their whole life... why did these people lie to them etc.

We are a same sex couple. We don't have one little spermie between us. We used a sperm donor, and there is option of contact once the child turns 18. We're aren't going to hide anything (not sure how we could LOL!), and will answer any questions our kids have about sperm donors. There are great books for donor kids, and we have lots of friends in same-sex relationships using donors, both known and unknown, so they won't be the odd one out. There won't be any lies, no deceit, just truth and honesty. I think that makes a world of difference in my opinion.

hi everyone.
i am new here... my partner and i have been together for 4 yrs and both want children really bad. lol.
i have been googling all the info i can but i stil cant find any thing about the parenting orders,
and was wondering if anyone coud send me a copy of the parenting order? to look over.

my partner and i tried our first home insemination sat the 18th, we are using a friend of ours, and now just waiting to take the test to find out if we are expecting...
finger crossed..
ema xox

Hi ema...

Try the talking turkey website (google 'talking turkey paernting orders'). They're also called consent orders. What goes in them depends on what you want in them. I was on the family law court and you can get access so I *think* its something like LawNet or something which has some cases, and some examples of what is in a parenting order, though its mostly hetereosexual couples who have broken up and the orders are about access.

Although in NSW both mums are able to be on the birth certificate... if you're both on the certificate you're both recognised as parents, I think this eliminates the need for a parenting order.

HTH.

hi leasha
thanks for the reply, i got alot of info off the site.
still seems very confussing but exciting at the same time tho.
ema_tracey

for legal advice in vic i found Over The Rainbow very helpful

hey folks..

Same sex parents can both be on the certificate in ACT, in NSW you can not unless its changed since last time I looked. Why not contact a Lawfirm that specialises in Family Law, if you look up LOTL (lesbians on the loose, its a magazine)on the net and go to classifieds, you will no doubt find a solicitor that specialises in same sex families.

cheers

D & M,

The laws have recently changed... in September I believe, that grants equal legal responsibility to both parents, as well as being able to both be on the birth certificate as parents...

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Lesbian mothers legal rights
Natasha Wallace
September 23, 2008
When her 16-month-old daughter was rushed to hospital in respiratory distress, Leigh Burness-Cowan, a lesbian mum, had no authority over her treatment.

Ms Burness-Cowan, 34, a high school maths teacher, is also allowed to pick up Hunter, now three, from preschool only with the permission of the birth mother, her partner, Kendi Burness-Cowan.

The Merrylands couple are among about 1000 NSW families granted equal legal rights under new laws which came into effect yesterday and allow the names of both lesbian mothers on birth certificates. The Burness-Cowans are on a waiting list of about 100 families who have inquired about new certificates.

Their children, Hunter and 17-month-old Hugo, will now have two legally recognised mothers who can sign health and education consent forms.

The NSW Attorney-General, John Hatzistergos, said the new birth certificates were part of a broad package of reforms that gave the children of female de facto couples equal parental rights and responsibilities.

Under the Miscellaneous Acts Amendment (Same Sex Relationships) Act 2008 (NSW), passed by NSW Parliament in June, children of lesbian parents in a de facto relationship will also be able to inherit both parents' assets and will have equal rights to children of heterosexual couples with regards to workers' compensation and victim compensation payments where one or both parents are killed or injured.

The laws - which are retrospective to allow for existing children - apply only to children who are conceived through artificial fertilisation who are living in domestic situations where their parents are in a lesbian de facto relationship.

Previously, under the Status of Children Act 1996, parental presumptions for artificial fertilisation only applied to heterosexual couples.

Sperm donors still do not have parental presumptions and are not listed on birth certificates.

The changes bring NSW into line with Western Australia, the ACT and the Northern Territory as well as New Zealand and Canada.

Kendi, 33, a public relations consultant, said yesterday it was the symbolic change of her partner being legally recognised "that is really powerful".

Custody, visitation rights and child maintenance come under a mix of state and federal laws that are yet to recognise same-sex couples, although the issue is before Federal Parliament.

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wowza.. thanks Leasha.. I guess my question now is.. is there any need for a parental order? thats fabulous huh, im excited, i cant wait to tell D..

that means although you should always have a will, it means you don't necessarily have to have one drawn up for the rights of the *other* parent god forbid anything happened.

about time I say!

Thankyou again Leasha :D

cheers M

RE the parent orders... I dont think theyre necessary if you're in a state that grants equal right/responsibility... the reason for a parent order would be a) for the nonbio mum to be able to make parental decisions etc, and b) to protect the nonbio mum if there was a separation, and those rights are given now (in some states...) so no real need to get a parent order i would think...?