Shocking behaviour from midwives

Just have to have a bit of a vent. A girlfriend of mine has just had her first baby. She had a beautiful, quick, easy birth and her DD is gorgeous. My GF had every intention of breastfeeding and had her DD on her breast within an hour of birth. After that things went downhill really fast and they just couldn't get a good attachment, no matter what different hold or technique they tried (her DD is tongue tied). Anyway, my GF was very distressed by the whole thing - screaming, hungry baby and she was in pain so she decided to give some FF while she tried to express. The midwives at the hospital she was in effectively ganged up on her, coming in two of them together at a time and lecturing her about how she just had to deal with her pain and how could she expect to be a good mother if she didn't persevere with breastfeeding. They waited until her DH was not there before they did this and on one occasion asked her MIL who was visiting to leave the room while they did an "examination". Why is it that there can't be more acceptance that while "breast is best", its not the only way and you're not an abusive, neglectful mother if you opt for formula.

This is my GF's first baby and naturally like any of us she wants to do what is best for her child. But what has happened is that she checked herself out of hospital to get away from the pressure, she feels like she has failed her baby and is in tears most of the day. I'm so angry at the way she has been treated and that she has been fed lies and guilt by those people that were there to support her.

Lulu - this unfortunately doesn't surprise me at all. I had a similar experience with my first, and after 3 days when my milk still hadn't come in and I hadn't had even 5 minutes sleep, a night-nurse suggested I give ds some formula to settle him as I needed sleep (I had complications in birth and still had high bp even 3 days later). I agreed and it worked, I got 3 hours blissful sleep. The next morning I had 3 separate midwives berate me for having gone down the formula path and tell me I had probably blown any hope I had of successful breastfeeding because my ds had now had a taste of formula. Grrrr.

From what I have experienced midwives acknowledge tongue tie as a fairly common problem and recommend expressed BFing. There are usually pumps in hospital which the new mum can use and feed her baby via bottle until the tongue can be seen to by a paed. How disappointing that this didn't occur :( It would have been a win/win situation. Often the bub just needs a tiny snip (it doesn't even bleed most of the time) for the tongue tie to be resolved.

It's so odd how the tables have turned so dramatically on this issue. My own mother had me in 1984 (not that long ago) and had wanted so much to breastfeed me. The doctor discouraged her, said it was much better to formula feed and gave her some pills which she took like a good girl. Poor ignorant thing, she just took whatever he gave her- they were "dry up" pills and she couldn't feed me at all. She had horrible PND for years afterward, I wouldn't be surprised if the doctor's attitude/abuse had something to do with it.

It's just terrible, though, that now the pendulum has swung so far to the other side and bfing is "pushed" so strongly that a mother who needs to can't FF without being treated like a monster. Makes me angry.

Oh Lulu that is just awful.... just when you need reassurance and support you get that kind of "breast" bashing that does nothing at all except make you feel even worse about the whole situation. I think its disgusting that they told her MIL to leave and waited until her DH wasn't there to do it- totally gutless really and if I was her I would be writing to the hospital to complain about it.

Can she contact the ABA and get some support or see a LC to get some solutions for her and her bubby??? I hope she can get some answers and breastfeed her bub.

It's so hard knowing the right thing to do. I was determined to breastfeed when it would really have been better for me to have given a little bit of formula in order to rest and be more relaxed. As it was by the time I had my DD, I'd had 7 hours sleep in 3 days and when she was born she wouldn't stay on longer than five minutes. So the midwives all gave different explanations and had me BFing for 1.5 hours each time - with a 1.5 hour break only for the ordeal (and that's the best word I can use to describe it) to start all over again - with midwives thrusting my boob and baby's head together at least 20 times per session. So I was torn between wanting to keep going and being absolutely exhausted. Then the hospital's lactation consultant told me to BF, express and FF when I got home which then took 2.5 hours out of every 3 hours. So I did that for two weeks. And my milk didn't come in until Day 6.

On the other hand, my GF supplemented with formula pretty much from Day 1. Her DS is an excellent BFer - hasn't affected him at all and she just bought herself a little bit of extra time to sleep and without worrying about the dreaded weight loss.

If we have similar problems next time, I know I'll be much less reticent about the formula - if the baby is attaching fine then I don't see what the drama is. Some babies are VERY good at BFing and at taking a bottle but BF Nazis will have you believe that if one drop of formula crosses their lips then your efforts will be doomed. I believe a more holistic approach should be taken - one that considers the needs of the mum AND the baby.

I hope your GF gets the support that she deserves and she's not traumatised by her stay in hospital. It's really unfair that women are given such a hard time when they're at their most vulnerable.

oooh this kind of thing makes me mad. I had so much trouble giving up the boob myself and that was WITH support and lots of love around me, I can't imagine what it would be like to be doing it and then have people berate you in this manner!!

Your poor friend. I hope she gets some help and support from someone. This just isn't good enough.

Even now, months after the event, I get a slight sting when I read on the tin "breast is best". yeah, ok, it is, but for some of us that just isn't enough...breast isn't best if the child is starving.

So long as she knows that everything she does is what she considers to be best for her child, then she is a wonderful mother...that is all that any of us can do.

That really is awful that anyone should have to go through that. There are so many ways in which hospital midwives could support women better a lot of the time. Sadly many of them are not particularly knowledgable about bfing, which makes their ability to handle a problem like tongue-tie more difficult. If more midwives were certified LCs as well, I suspect women would get much more knowledgable and caring support regardless of their feeding choices. I really think that as things stand, we should not be relying on hospital midwives to help with feeding at all, but to educate ourselves and have a LC at the ready.

My experience with a tongue-tied baby was not the same, but not ideal either. A few of the midwives noticed the tt, but none of them realised that it was the reason why DS was unable to attach. It was only by pure luck we found out 2 weeks later that it was, got it snipped and went on to successfully feed for 14 months.

The slogan 'breast is best' is no longer used by the ABA, it's only really used by those who are used to the slogan... now it's 'breast is normal'.

The problem is, we know the research says that it's the healthiest choice for baby but there are many problems in the system:

* There is a breastfeeding focus and policy in most hospitals, yet midwives have no formal lactation qualification in their course;
* Birth has become a highly medicalised event resulting in increased breastfeeding problems
* Women have to pay for a private Lactation Consultant if they want good advice and support, fast, none of it covered by anything for rebates.
* Midwives are supposed to encourage breastfeeding yet the above two problems are massive barriers to successful breastfeeding.

According to a BB poll, the #1 thing everyone chose as the biggest barrier to breastfeeding is eduction. So obviously this is a big issue as well.

Getting breastfeeding established and well is a struggle in the current birthing / maternity state and I think we need to look at the root causes and not put policies and things into place without fixing the root cause first. Giving women a hard time about it in the mean time is not going to fix the problem.

The whole maternity system is in a bad way. Women get blamed for c/s increases. Women get blamed for not trying bf. Women get told not be he hero's and have pain relief. Women get told they are being negligent for homebirth and pyschologically damaging babies when they choose to infant led breastfeed or co-sleep. Women need to stop copping the blame, the system and medical profession need to step up, take responsibility (heck they do when there are birth problems why not this) and give women a break. We're sheep being led to the slaughter!

The problem is too big to have a simple answer but changes need to happen in a big way, including how midwives and doctors are trained at uni.

this sort of thing makes me fume i am eagerly awaiting bub number six lol and i will not be breast feeding him at all he will be put on formula from the get go i have 5 other children and yes i have bf 2 of them it was a nightmare both lost weight constantly but because they were wetting ther nappies all the profesional just kept telling me to keep going it would be fine well both times it took 8 weeks of hell for me to say enough anf but them on the bottle the only conclusion i can come to is that there was very little nutriance in my milk as they both fead for good amounts of time and i never had attatchment problems it just didnt work for me well from my feelings of failure i got post natal depression with both these bubs so im not prepared to do it again and have already coped heaps from the hospital and i dont care i told them i know what is best for my baby and it is a happy well ajusted mum not some poor women who cries all the time and is on medication for 12 to 18 months now not everone who cant breast feed gets pnd but after much counselling this is the conclusion that we reach for me ,yes breast ids best or breast is natural we all know that and we all agree but its not breast is right for everyone ,motherhood is the most amazing thing in the world but also the most guolt riden as well why do we have to make it harder for other mums it makes no sense to me .

I'm really surprised that this has turned into a breasfeeding bashing thread when the issue isn't with the BF itself, but the way the midwives conducted themselves. Don't loose sight of the bigger issue here - for all intents and purposes this woman wanted to BF, but when problems started arising she wasn't given the help that she needed. Like Kelly said, education is the key here and it sounds like both sides needed more of it. You have to remember too that hospitals are pro-bf and its their job to encourage new mums to keep at it, but sadly their approach to this was severely detrimental to the situation it would seem. If she is still keen to bf then she can. Maybe away from the pressure of the midwives and in the comfort of her own home she can arrange for a LC to come and help her and get it sorted out - tounge tie isn't the death knell for having a great BF relationship.

Now don't get me wrong, I had my own BF issues ranging from poor attachment to having no milk come in and as a result my children were/are formula fed, but just because this is the Formula Feeding Forum that doesn't mean that it can be a free-for-all against BF and all the 'Formula feeding is OK/great/did no harm to my children' platitudes - its all bull****. Formula feeding isn't the best thing for baby, but its all we have. This woman was given a bum steer by her caregivers who she placed her trust into and its possibly affected her enough to never give BF another go with this child or any other.

I'm not sure that it has Sherie. I think people have just shared their own experiences and in most cases, as Kelly mentioned it is a lack of education of the midwives in hospital, and inexperience as a first time mum that have led to these people either FF for a few bottles or permanently, or as in my case I am both FF and breastfeeding. At the end of the day we all do what we know is best for our babies and if that means we FF for whatever reason, we shouldn't have to feel guilty for expressing our experience or opinion. I don't think anyone has said FF is the best thing for baby, I don't think there is any doubt in ANY mothers mind that breast if best BUT if it isn't going to happen thank god we live somewhere where we have another option for our babies. FF may sometimes be best for certain women and their babies based on their own experience and situation which none of us can judge, not having walked in their shoes.

Having said all that you have to wonder what difference a compassionate, caring and trained midwife would have in all these cases? As Kelly said the issue is much deeper than a simple solution, and with all the mother guilt we have nurses like this make the situation a million times worse.

No, its not about being made to feel guilty for doing whichever it is we choose to do, as I said in my post it's about being let down by the system and in this case the midwives at the hospital. Having a midwife who was more compassionate and tactful in her approach could have made the world of difference to this situation and at least reassured her that she isn't a bad mother or making the wrong decision and maybe that would have let her clear her head enough to decide what she was going to do - carry on with things the way they were and bubs on the bottle or take action and get some help and support to have another go at it.

LuluHB, you haven't been back on and said what your friend is going to do - is she going to give it another go or not?

I agree Sherie, this shouldn't become a BF vs FF thread. The new mother in this story wanted to BF, it was a fixable problem (tongue-tie) that was the problem, and the midwives. I hope she has found better support and advice.

Lulu I'm so sorry and disappointed that your friend was treated this way, I hope that in time she will make a complaint. I hope that she is ok?

I didn't intend for this to become a BF v FF thread - there are waaaaaay too many of them already!! As I've said in those threads before, what is important is that women are supported in whatever way they choose to raise their babies, whether it is an actual choice or whether they have no choice IYKWIM. What I was angry about was that my friend wasn't supported at all and I think that is unforgiveable.

She's still upset by the whole thing but I'm glad to say she is now more angry than upset - and we all know not to get in the way of an angry, hormonal woman! She is determined to get her little one breastfeeding and is seeing a lactation consultant tomorrow. Hopefully between the two of them they can make some progress and fortunately she has the support of family and friends around her. She has also been expressing over the last couple of days at home and whilst not getting great results, its better than nothing until she sees the LC tomorrow.

ETA - I printed off everyone's responses and gave them to her this morning. She was very grateful to receive support from other women, and to know that she wasn't at fault in this situation, so thanks everyone

Oh Lulu, I'm glad you were able to make her feel a bit more supported by our little community here and I hope the LC is able to help her out even more by helping her feed her bubby.

Hi Ladies

This does not suprise me, I have a 4 month old baby and I could not bf and I was also made feel really bad, but I have come to relise that while they say breast is best I say MOTHERS KNOW BEST we know our babies and we have to believe in ourselves.

Lulu, how is your friend going? I have just come across this thread, and I would love to hear how things are turning out for her. I'm sorry she received such poor treatment in hospital, it's just not acceptable.

Kelly - great post, but I have to share the love LOL.

Hey Sez. She's doing really well, although not breastfeeding. I think she was just so upset by the whole thing unfortunately. She saw an LC who was lovely apparently and didn't pile on the guilt at all thank goodness - just lots of support and understanding. She kept trying to BF for a few days but her little princess by that time was well and truly happy on the bottle and she was having even more attachment issues. She's back at work in another couple of months so I think she sees it as easier to just keep Lucy on a bottle and formula so it will be easier when her mum takes over days looking after Lucy. Its all a bit sad about how it happened, but they're both very happy and settled and that's the main thing.

I'm glad she's happy with how things have turned out :) It's just such a shame that a new mum had to go through that, I feel outraged on her behalf! I hope she continues to enjoy her baby.

Hi Lulu, I'm really glad that she didn't let her initial experience deter her from trying to seek further help. It's good to hear that she is happy and little Lucy is happy too.

It makes me really MAD :angry: that this happens. I mean the very fact that they were ganging up on her and berating her - it is one thing to offer your opinion and/or medical advice (which is welcomed) but to make a new mother feel terrible about herself is ridiculous.

I had some TERRIBLE midwives and hated my hospital experience with a passion due to their constant interferring. The hospital was nice, etc but they made me feel terrible about everything. What made it worse was that all the advice conflicted with the advice from the previous midwife.

Thank you to the one or two fabulous midwives I had. Thank you to those who understand that offering support and education is important. Trying to force new mothers into what would be their choice is not.

Your poor friend :(

I had exactly the same thing happen with the night shift midwives, the ganging up etc except they were trying to force me to FF!!! I had areally bad crack and had been expressing blood but was determined to BF and they were trying to push me into formula, at one stage one was sent in while I was getting ready for a shower (I had a broken foot so was on crutches) to convince me that DS would have all these problems if I didn't give him formula and that of all her kids the FF one was the healthiest. I was so angry and upset, this all happened in the middle of the night when I had no family to help me. they ended up giving him one bottle which I refused to go near. luckily the LC was there in the morning and we sorted out a plan and I managed to BF.
The LC said that unfortunately a lot of the late night midwives pushed FF as it made it easier.
I guess what I am saying is that there can be the same problem the other way around and its not pleasant either!

I agree Mrs Mac. I was pushed into giving my DD a bottle of formula when she was 2 days old because she wouldn't settle one night (I think I was the only mum who had actually kept her baby with her, rather than sending her to the nursery!) I was so anti doing it but I was just so exhausted and distressed my new baby kept screaming that eventually as a new, inexperienced mum I gave in to their pushing. I think Kelly summed it up beautifully - education is what is missing for mums, midwives, nurses, OBs, paeds, everybody. And what is really missing is support, understanding and empathy.