The dreaded "r" (routine) word

Hi,
I'm kinda looking for some gentle parenting support. I have a 11+ week old and things have been great- although I've found it has been the last week or so that I've been more tired than ever. My sister is hugely into gentle parenting but other than that I seem to be surrounded by people who opt for "cry it out" strategies which I think is a cruel and unusual punishment for a baby!

I don't know if it's just because these are the people in my life or not, but I keep getting asked about whether we are in a routine or not - and I am totally detesting that word because it equates to controlled crying and the like now, in my mind. So my DH and I have started to talk about "patterns" - and really I think I "should" be in a "pattern" by now but when I wake up of a morning i honestly couldn't tell you what time I'll be doing what or when my DS will be sleeping.

Most of me thinks that is totally natural, that children ARE unpredictable and I refuse to set a routine for him to follow. I like that he will set out what he needs. BUT. The allure of knowing what might happen when is kind of there...

So what I'm wondering is - do gentle parenting families have "patterns" (or routines)? How did you end up with them?

My DS rarely will sleep in the day longer than 45 mins at a time so we seem to spend a lot of time and energy focused on SLEEP - though he's great at night. Is this why I can't see a pattern emerging because the day is so choppy?

Ahh sorry this is getting long. I have loads of questions and not many people to ask. It's HARD to find people with similar parenting techniques.

THanks for being here!

Maybe I should say...generally he is up for 1 1/2 hours, and down for 45 minutes...I watch for his tired cues to put him to sleep. He takes 10 minutes to feed, and feeds every 3 hours or so through the day (4-6 hours at night).

Maybe thats a pattern...?

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Maybe I should say...generally he is up for 1 1/2 hours, and down for 45 minutes...I watch for his tired cues to put him to sleep. He takes 10 minutes to feed, and feeds every 3 hours or so through the day (4-6 hours at night).

Maybe thats a pattern...?

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Sounds like an amazing rhythm. Fantastic, and one that I would be jealous of ;). I know there is a stigma about the 45 minute sleep cycle. But sounds perfect for an 11 week old.

For example, when Jovie was 11 weeks she was awake for around an hourish, and when I noticed she was tired I would rock her to sleep and she would sleep around an hour. Sometimes it would be 30 minutes, sometimes 60, but rarely over an hour.

I generally just watched her for cues, jerky movements, yawning, rubbing eyes/ears. At night we have a set routine of dinner, bath, quiet play and then settling in bed. Either a story or a massage or something to quiet their spirits to sleep. Jovie refused to feed to sleep so I woud do a quiet feed in our bed with the lights out & then cuddle her to sleep at night, or I would put her in the hammock and rock her to sleep after the feed.

It sounds like a definite pattern is emerging Rahjah, and that you are doing a wonderful job responding to his cues! To those who say that babies should eat and sleep at the same time every day I say piffle, I don't eat and sleep at the same time each day by choice, so why should I expect my infant to, who is much more in tune with the calling of his most basic functions. Some people respond well to routines, others don't.

Euan is nearly 18 weeks, and is not the best at day sleeps (he's great at night though - we get 7 - 8 hours straight and have done for ages). I don't worry about when and how long, I just encourage him to sleep when he is tired - whether at home or out, he will sleep in the carrier, pram or car (and sometimes even in his cot LOL) during the day, and he goes through phases - sometimes he likes to be pushed in the pram or carried to sleep, sometimes he will self settle. As the boundaries change constantly, I don't worry about 'creating bad habits', I just do what feels right now.

It can be hard in those first few months when it feels like you'll never be able to plan anything again. I just bit the bullet and started doing stuff, and Euan generally fits in to what I am doing a lot better than I expected!

Good luck!

We did (and still do) have a routine driven child but she seemed to have a pattern pretty much from the start. It was encouraged as she was slightly jaundiced and quite small so we had to wake to feed every 3-4 hours to flush out the jaundice. Anyway she was in a definite 4 hour cycle early on, however I found that she tended to sleep better with some motion. So I always made sure at least one of her day sleeps was in the pram and we would go out for a 2 hour walk every day - rain, hail or shine. This has added benefits as she will still sleep in her pram anywhere which is a godsend!! Plus the exercise did me good as well.

I was given Tizzie Hall's Save Our Sleep book and found it to be very prescriptive and not really suited to our lifestyle however it was really useful in providing information on how much sleep DD should be getting at whatever age she was at.

If you wrote down what he does every day for a week, you will already find that he is probably somewhat in a 'routine' or 'pattern' of doing things (give or take 1/2hr or so either side) and you are doing really well at reading his cues for feeding and sleeping - so give yourself a huge pat on the back for that - it can be really hard to work it out. And some babies will only ever have short naps too - they sleep as much as they need to, sometimes it will be longer and sometimes it will be shorter.

I think people ask about routines because they *think* that's what they should ask or they assume that's just what you do - there is far too much pressure on mums about this and it's just silly.

I found that we just fell into a lovely way of doing things and it just worked so well for us and as each baby came along they just fell into the same pattern of doing things which made the early weeks of transition from 1 to 2 to 3 children easier. Back then though I had no idea I was following a 'baby led routine', I was just feeding them when they were hungry and putting them to sleep when they were sleepy and I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would want to impose strict regimental 'routines' on them - we eat and sleep when we are hungry and tired, so why can't a baby?

Well done and keep up the good work. You will find a lot of mums here that follow gentle parenting so if you ever have any questions or just need a bit of support, there will always be someone here.

Very similar to Sherie, my 3 all fell into a "groove" by themselves.

With Olivia, my first, I didn't really understand/appreciate it, but then when I had Charlie I realised that he too adopted a very similar groove, and so did Lexie.

All 3 of them kind of fell into a pattern of wake up, feed, play, feed, sleep. I couldn't/wouldn't "time it" as such with a clock, but by around 12 weeks the pattern was predictable.

Of course, as they grow, the pattern shifts a little in as much as they are awake and playing for longer, and sleeps vary depending on teeth & growth spurts etc, but the basic pattern remained the same.

HTH

Oh bugger to the routine people. Although I think alot of people are just making conversation when they say that - "is he a good baby?" etc.

I am def one for letting baby fall into a routine. My own thing was not to worry about the R word until they are at least 12 weeks. Anyway, even if they are one of the routine from birth babies, teething wrecks everything....

Ohhh thank you so much. You have all really helped me just chill out and believe in what I'm doing...I had a bit of a confidence dive there but you're all right, baby-led makes sense.

Anyway we've been out for a walk this morning, brekky and then looking through some car yards and DS has been in and out of his pram, the car, meeting people - and as a PP said, we just encourage him to sleep when he's tired or be awake when he's awake. It's all good, he's been perfect.
And there's been no routine in sight.

Thanks - I love this Gentle Parenting thread.

Hey there Rah,
Sounds like Kades has a great pattern going - 10 min feed, up for about 1.5hours, sleep for about an hour... Sounds great! I'm not going to say anything new here, just that when people talk to you about routines, they are probably really thinking about older babies.
Sorry if I offend anyone - perhaps routine-talk doesn't belong in this thread, but Natalie really benefits from her routine these days, but she is 15 months old! And some days the routine gets chucked out because we have stuff on. I think that's ok - its teaching her that life doesn't always go the way you plan ;) The routine is only useful IMO if you don't obsess over it. It is there to make everyone's life a little easier, not harder! If it is hard to get into, it is not worth it. And if it stresses you out, its only going to stress bubs out too.
Just wanted to say, whacko Babe, you're doing such a great job. Keep following your instincts because you know the best way to raise your boy.

Thanks lovely :)

I would hope to be using the "r" word when he's older :rolleyes: - I think kids DO need predictability for sure to some degree - I guess just before 3 months it's likely to be a hard line to push them into it.

But....we'll get there as he grows no doubt.

would love to catch up with you guys sometime, Hope Natty is doing well :lol:

Sod routine. I just answer that we follow Oliver's cues and that he sleeps well at night. That's usually enough for most people. I have to say though, I'm well sick of people trying to sell me Tizzie Hall/Gina Ford controlled crying routine theories.

I agree with all the girls advice! You should do what feels right!

DS doesnt have a day routine but at night we always have a bath together then massage then feed and he falls asleep on the breast wich i adore! And he is oding great! Hes not the best sleeper but I figure he will sleep better eventually right! I am just going to enjoy him as a baby!
sometimes routines are made beacuse people like to feel they are in control, but unfortunately babies havent read these so called routines and just want mum and a feeling of love!
You are doing a wonderfull job! Just lead with your heart and you will be fine!:hug:

x

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I have to say though, I'm well sick of people trying to sell me Tizzie Hall/Gina Ford controlled crying routine theories.

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Ugh, sometimes I wish people would mind their own business!! I have flicked through the Tizzie Hall book amongst many others, but I'd never recommend that or any book to anyone unless they specifically asked for it! Personally, I think most caring for baby books are more trouble than their worth - they just make you doubt yourself.

I think i see routine differently. I don't think routine is a set of things DD should/could/will do. THey are a set of things I do, so that she can predict what will happen next and se she can feel secure. There is no force involved with that.

I began my bedtime routine when DD was 5 weeks old because by then she was a good enough feeder that her patterns had settled a good bit. The routine was just bath/feed/story/bed. It still works 24 months on to let her know bedtime is nigh and for her to feel relaxed about that. SOmetimes she falls asleep instantly and sometimes she lies looking at a story book for 20mins but she doesn't cry or make a fuss and goes to bed happy and secure that bedtime is ok and tomorrow will come soon enough.

My only advice re_ routines is to make routines FOR YOU. I have 3 kinds of "day" with DD. I have the sort of day when we go for a run at breakfast time (2-3 times a week) the sort when we don't go running but go to feed the ducks in later morning (1-2 times a week) and the sort when we go to organised toddler groups then on to see friends etc. (1-2 times a week). DD knows by a million things what sort of day it is. My routine isn't about MAKING her do something, it's about letting her know what is happening next. From that POV routines can be a security tool, a kindness, for a child.

Don't worry about other people's opinion. If someone says "is he a good baby?" then reply "He's PERFECT!" and if they then say "But does he sleep through?" reply "I just SAID he's perfect" and give them a look like they're an idiot. Then you need not get into their idea of what "good" means. :)

Rajah, I know I'm coming in late, but I agree that you sound like you are doing a great job. I did the same with my boys - they led me into a pattern by showing tired and hungry signs. It became predictable and therefore fell into a "routine" - as Trillian said, the time might vary by 1/2 hour or so a day, but the basic order of what happens when was pretty constant (until crawling and then teeth changed all that LOL!!).

I also think the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is one of the best mottos for parenting. If it's working for you, go with it and don't worry about others.

hey rah, i followed you here! :p

Hi Rahjah, I haven't read the other replies, so I mgiht be repeating what others have said.
I didn't purposely establish a routine with DD. But she did fall into a rhythm (I prefer that word, pattern is good, too) all by herself. By about 3 months of age. I never knew when she'd wake up, but I knew she'd be ready for a sleep again, about 2 hours after waking. Around about this time I started to establish a more predictable bed time "routine". Which means, I would take her to bed around 7pm and feed her to sleep which could tae anything from 1 - 1 1/2 hours. Then I'd sneak away.
I don't think you have to actively establish a routine. Just do what seems right and things will fall into place all by themselves. It worked for me, anyway.
I also find that the less effort I spent trying to make her sleep, the easier she went to sleep. Have you tried putting DS to sleep in a sling or wrap? My DD fell asleep the easiest when in the Hug A Bub. I never bothered to take her out and put her in the bed. Actually, she slept in the HAB for most of her day sleep until about 3 or 4 months. After that she took her day sleep in my bed (feeding to sleep) until about 6 months. From 6 mnths onwards I worked on being able to transfer her to the cot after the feeding to sleep routine.

Go with your instincts, don't worry about what your CIO friends say. try to surround yourself with people who have similar parenting ideals to your own (like here on BB) to stregthen your resolve to do things your way. I found that really helpful. Especially when people said: you're creating a rod for your own back, she'll NEVER sleep by herself, etc. I had other people that were living proof that my techniques worked.

Good luck and stay strong,
Sasa

Hey Ferny welcome to BB :hug:

Sasa thanks. This has resurrected an old thread but recently I started a new one relating to other peoples critiques of our parenting and vice versa. It's a tough one and unfortunately I don't have too many Gentle Parenting people around me! So BB is a lifesaver to read how other's are doing things :)

How did you work to get your 6 mth old into the cot? I've wondered that. DS is going great these days - sleeping well at nights and most day sleeps are going well, at predictable times, but either in our bed or on his POOH quilt in the sun room. He sleeps so well there. I've wondered what will happen one day re moving him into the cot in the day.

i started to do it a month or so ago and it was going really well but personally I like the way things are now cause I can lay down with him. But when he starts rolling and crawling etc it will be harder! I'll probably need him to be contained! LOL. So I'll be interested to hear how it went for you?

Ferny hope you like it in here!

Well, it was a little trial and error. To be honest, the main thing was for me to learn how to pick her up from my bed and out her down into the cot without waking her up. It took a few goes the first night and then she slept a 7 hour stint!!! A feat yet to be repeated ;-) I never let her cry it out in there. The next day I tried to do it during the day, but she resisted, kept waking up, etc. That evening my own anxiety seemed to have transferred to her and she didn't want to be put down. I was really adamant that she has to sleep in the cot now because she had crawled off my bed 2 days before (that was the reason I went out and bought a cot) and even had a black eye, the poor wee soul. So after a couple of failed attempts I actually let her cry :redface: for a little while. But I was sitting next to her (crying myself) trying to pat her and comfort her which didn't work at all. I was a mess after about 10 minutes of that and gave up. I don't know how people can handle that. It was the most awful thing I have ever done in my life. I will NEVER do it again. She slept in my bed that night. But the next night she was easy to transfer to the cot again. And now she does most of her daysleeps in the cot (unless she sleeps in the car seat or grandma & grandpa cuddle with her). In the evenings she sleeps in her cot but once she wakes up for boobie (mostly between 1-2am) she comes into my bed. I am however going to attempt night weaning next week to encourage her to sleep through. She has slept so well until the last couple of months (4-5 hour stretches). But with teething and seperation anxiety at their peek right now, things are not quite so peachy.

I found the easiest way to put her down was to pick her up from the bed with her head resting on my wrist and my other hand supporting her bum. I would then rock her for a minute to resettle adn then gently "roll" her out of my arms and into the cot. So she was lying on her side (she has always slept the best when lying on her side or tummy). This way I didn't get my hands stuck under her body which is the mistake I made in the first couple of days. Getting them out was a surefire way to wake her up.

She still doesn't self-settle, a fact that would cause criticism from most CIO proponents. But I am sure that she will do it in her won time. I can settle her a variety of ways (rocking her to sleep, driving in the car, feeding, cuddling on the bed, etc.) and sometimes she will stay in the cot these days even if she wakes up while being put into it. Other times she will protest straight away.

Another thing that really helped me was the dummy. She has always had a really strong sucking reflex. In the early months, she would have nights where she wanted to be constantly attached to my nipple. And I usually let her. I'm a lazy person at night and did whatever necessary to get the most sleep :-) She HATED the dummy. She'd suk on everything she could get her hands on, but the dummy she only ever spat out. But shortly after the transition to the cot, she started liking the dummy. and she still does. Only for sleep, though. So these days when I put the dummy in her mouth, she knows it's time for sleep and usually relaxes instantly. When she wakes up, often it is enough to just pop the dummy into her mouth again, and she'll go to sleep again.

All these things have worked for us in the first 12 months of her life. But to be honest, I am a little anxious to make her "more convenient" now, cause she has some nights lately where she wakes up at least once per hour, which is seriously affecting Dh and I. I would still not do it at her expense. I won't ler her cry. I will merely try some gentle encouragement (like rocking her back to sleep when she wakes at night rather than just offering her the breast, or offering her a bottle of water in case she's thirsty). She should have grown out of the need for night time nutrition, it should only be a habit now and a need for comfort. I will try and encourage her to find comfort in other things, not just take her sole means of comfort away...

If anyone has any tips on how to do this gently, please let me know.

All the best, Sasa
xox

Oh, and by the way, some people opt for a double mattress on the floor instead of a cot. This way you can lie down with them like you do it now, but they are sleeping in their own bed, by themselves. Cause it's on the floor, they can't hurt themselves when rolling out.
Some people go straight to a toddler bed with guardrail and once their bub can stand, they teach them how to climb out of the bed feet first
There are a million different ways...
Others use guardrails on their own beds or put lots of pillows on the floor surrounding the bed. They do learn pretty quickly that crawling over the edge is not a good idea.

Yes! Now that I'm here, I'm wondering why on earth we bought a cot cause I can't get in it! Well that's not entirely true. I have been known too but it's not real convenient, LOL :rolleyes:

You sound very much like me I have to say. Since I wrote that last post, our Merino Kids sleeping bags arrived, and life has changed totally. DS loves them, is sleeping really well - and biggest win ever, likes to go to sleep on his own in his sleeping bag during the days. It has been consistent for ALL his day sleeps for 3 days now. I can't believe it. I sound excited now, but the first day I was shocked and kinda annoyed at how disposable I am! Haha. But it's a great and very surprising development.

He had one cot sleep yesterday but has been on our bed, putting himself to sleep in other days -so this week my goal is to see how he'll go in the cot. I am kind of tempted to get rid of the thing though. It seems so isolated for him even though it is a safety issue. Well. It will be.

Re the dummy thing- our DS is like that too, he loves the dummy and relaxes straight away. But he'll only take it if he's ready for sleep, he's not interested at other times. So that's a good pointer. He went through a few days of waking every hour ( I thought I was dying a slow death!) and I was worried it was a dummy issue but decided - he doesn't wake FOR the dummy. He wakes for some other reason and the dummy helps him back to sleep quickly. If we didn't have it, I think he'd be much harder to settle.

Anyway I think now his temp is regulated with wool through the night he is much happier. Yay us, this week everything is working. I guess it just changes so regularly for one reason or another you can't get too complacent or comfortable hey!

Sorry I'm not much more help re the night waking. I think if it lasted much longer I'd be on here demanding help (!!) but at the time, I just suffered through it and figured for whatever reason, DS needed me. So I just had to do it. But an older bub - I don't know. Separation anxiety is not something I'm looking forward to...

xx