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Bear, I'll be honest and say at 1 in the morning, I've not studied thoroughly your post. :)
But briefly
So how should the biblical creation be presented as part of an academic curriculum?
- Possibly as a literary work that has been subject to much alteration and interpretation through the ages.
That's not acceptable to me. I'm in serious danger of waffling, so I'll TRY to make sense, and others can clarify or ask for clarification. :P John says, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. The bible is known as the Living Word. God's word. And God doesn't change. So how can his message change? I can't pick and choose what parts of the bible I believe are true, and reject other parts. I either accept it all as God's truth, or reject it all as inaccurate and just a book, not God's word. (and there, perhaps, we have the difference between Christians and those not believing.)
- Possibly as a religious belief that is particular to a sub-section of the modern christian community.
The bible says that God created the world. If you call yourself a Christian (follower of Christ), who came to fulfill the law, the Old Testament, then you'd be believing that God created. How? Well, if the bible doesn't say exactly how, I suppose people can debate, but it's not an issue that affects salvation really. Personally, I don't see why I shouldn't take it literally.
- Definately not as "alternative" science.
To be honest, I sometimes think Evolution requires just as much, if not more faith than Creation. That's from my Creation believing point of view though. :P I think it would be cool for the evidence to be presented - fossils, sedimentary layers, and say 'the Evolution theory explains this evidence this way, and the Creation theory explains this evidence this way. You decide for yourself what is true'.
Sorry if that's garbled.
What Bear said.
Also, the definition of the word Theory is important. It does matter that there is a difference of meaning between laymen's terms & scientific terms. Look it up.
You are free to believe what you want to believe. But creation is a religious thing, My children are not being raised that way so I don't think it should be taught in public schools. As I said before, save it for scripture & church.
As a real question thats not intended to be offensive, But isn't the teachings of creation & other religious beliefs like that what Sunday school would be for?
I thought I was answering that. My thoughts are that the religious theory should be taught outside of the public schooling system.:
What are your thoughts on this? Do you think both creation and evolution should be taught in school? Are they in some schools? Can they even be? Or do you just accept that it's something that you'll have to teach your kids about at home?
Can I ask one question of all the people who are saying that science can not support creation? Have you studied the science that is used to support evolution? Have you looked into how the scientific evidence can be interpreted to support creation?
I am a scientist, I have done both. I studied chemistry, geology and physics at university, and while I have not looked studied much in the area of biology, I have a friend who studied extensively in that area and has talked to me in great detail about her studies and her beliefs.
Even before I became a Christian, I had serious doubts about the science used to support the age of the Earth, which is one of the things that the theory of evolution is based upon. When the scientists are saying that they use radioactive dating of rocks (I can't remember the exact isotopes, but it's not carbon-14!) to date the Earth and because of what they have discovered there, the Earth is many millions of years old... and then in the next breath talk about how they used this dating method on rock formed in a volcanic eruption that is known to be only around 10 years old and it dates again at several millions of years old... How can this method be trusted with any degree of accuracy? This was something that stuck in my mind and cast doubt on the rest of the scientific claims made in the name of supporting evolution.
In studying the scientific evidence and how it can support creation - I found absolutely no inconsistencies like that I found above.
Now, can we please stop writing me off as a brain-washed fundamentalist who believes all that she is fed? Please?
Also, I have to absolutely agree with Nelle here. We can't pick and choose which parts of the bible are truth and which are not. Who gets to decide which bits are fact and which are not if we are going to go down that path?
BW
Okay now as a poster, rather than a mod. FJ creationism is vital to a Christian. If we don't believe the God created the earth, we are unable to have faith. Its not a "story" to most of us. True the biblical version of creationism can be seen as an analogy or story, BUT the underlying truth of the story is one of the basics of Christianity, and other religions.
I actually find it hard to hear that someone tells me that belongs in Sunday school personally. Especially just after saying you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. If we are to theories in school we should teach ALL theories and not one as fact.
ETA: Sorry FJ that second purple post was not directed at you, it was after re reading some of the thread and deciding more than a gentle reminder was needed ;)
But creation is a religious belief. I don't have a huge bank of knowladge is this area, but to me it is just as offensive as me saying it belongs in Sunday school for christians to say it should be taught in main steam schooling. For me its a religious belief & should remain in a religious setting.
I think its just going to confuse the crap out of my kids who are not brought up with the rest of the christain beliefs to have that one part thrown in.
The way I see it, is evolution is the non religious way of looking at things. So in a public school thats what should be taught. Public schools are not a place for religous topics.
If evelotion is a theory or if its actually the way it happen doesn't really matter to me, to me its the non religious view so that what I want taught to my children. To me, I blieve its the way it happen.
BUT this is the Christianity forum. IF you were in the breastfeeding forum asking for help in educating someone, and someone came in and suggested formula feeding should be the main thing taught, how would you feel?
true.
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Bear, I usually enjoy your posts so I won't be too blunt ;) But unfortunately I'm not finding your contributions in this thread very accessible... meaning I'm not sure this is the place to have an academic argument about Evolution and Creation. Personally it's because I, like many members, usually have to post and read in an environment of child related chaos (noise, frequent tapping on the leg requesting one thing or another, multi-tasking such as BFing and settling of babies etc). Maybe if I was in reading in total silence without sleep deprivation i might be able to do more than skim over your posts. I'm also not sure as to your spiritual status... are you a Christian? Or like FJ more a concerned parent (in which case this topic should probably be raised in the general education forum). This thread was started by a Christian who was (I assume) primarily addressing other Christians for advice. I kinda feel like the topic has been hyjacked by non-Christians who (rightly so) are concerned about what their children are learning in school. I'm up for a good discussion most days... but once again I am still feeling as though I should be in defence-mode and that's not really fair. Faith is faith and can't be logically defended.
Where does it say the earth is flat? I thought the bible said the earth was round. Hmm...now let me see if I can find where it says that.
Anyways, that's getting off topic again and it's not really worth arguing about as my faith makes me have a different view of things. Although I do see the Bible as a great bit of historical literature, it is also the basis of my faith and I believe that it is God's word and he had a hand in writing it and deciding what would be included in it. So I wouldn't disagree with anything written in it anyway.:
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
- Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
The word translated 'circle' here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated 'circuit', or 'compass' (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched not something that is flat or square.
The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens.
To Christians creation is part of our beliefs, but there are people who believe in "Intelligent Design" instead of evolution who aren't Christians, therefore don't necessarily believe it was God. It doesn't have to be about religion. I think its important to present different "theories" to our children and not just one.:
I've just read Christy's post and I would like to apologise if I have offended anyone by the Sunday school reference.
When I was at home, I learnt about Catholicism through the books that we read about our faith, and by Sunday school. Sunday school was taught in years of age and by a teacher of the faith. I enjoyed it (although again I did challenge someone who spelt God with a small g :redface:)
I found that scripture was helpful in primary school, but less helpful in High school. Mainly due to the amount of time available, as well as priests that didn't want to listen to my questions (and I did ask a lot! :redface:)
My reference to the scripture in High school now was that if I was still Catholic, I would feel very uneasy about my children being taught by a group that was not from a traditional Christian church. I would rather send them to a Catholic school.
I am also coming from the point of view of a teacher, which is why I said it would be hard to teach both evolution and creationism in a public school. Especially when there are other religions that have different explanations.
As you know, I come from a Catholic background and I like exploring aspects of this faith, just to clarify my own thought. I had not meant to upset anyone else and if I have I'm sorry.
And BW, I definitely do not see you as:
Anyone that does needs to have a long, hard look at themselves!:
a brain-washed fundamentalist who believes all that she is fed
Thanks, Gargy. :hug: Like Bath, I found a lot of posts were putting me on the defensive (not yours!), and I woke up with my cranky pants on this morning... I found it really upsetting that I felt I needed to justify and explain my beliefs in a Christian area of the forum. Not so cranky now, but I did find some posts were making me feel that's the way I was being seen.
TheBear, I've never found any claims in the Bible about a flat earth - do you have references for those? Also, I've always been under the impression that the vast majority of churches believed the same way mine does - that the Bible is the word of God and is literal truth... I've never thought of the Baptist church as anything other than mainstream.
BW
BW I felt the same, thats why I said something :hug:
I've never heard before of the bible saying the world was flat? :dunno:
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This thread has been created to split off-topic discussion from a thread in the Christianity forum. I have moved the discussion out of the Christianity forum out of respect to those of Christian faith who may find the assertions made in some of these posts to be offensive.
Might I also take the opportunity to point out that the moderators of this forum take very seriously the importance of respect for others' religions and beliefs. Please be mindful of this when posting, and especially with regards to WHERE you're posting.
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The issue that the Moderating team had is that you were actively trying to disprove that creation was a valid thing, something that we wont tolerate in any forum. We wouldn't tolerate someone posting in the Breastfeeding forums to go and use formula, nor would we tolerate someone going in to the Formula feeding forum to tell everyone to breastfeed. This is no different. The Christianity forum was not a suitable area for your posts, so they were moved here. If there are any further issues from this, please contact a Moderator directly. Thank you.
I would like your source for this please.:
The guidelines explain :):
I have to confess that I'm having a hard time seeing how providing references to quotes from the scripture and leaders of the christian church is not appropriate for the Christian forum.
So, to the topic of this thread... I take the Bible literally. I don't see why God would have chosen to have His word recorded in a way that would be open to individual interpretation. I think He would want us to all be able to understand what He said, not just in the days that the Bible was written but forever. So I just read it myself and have faith that God has presented it to me in such a way that even I am able to understand it. If it was mainly allegorical than I don't think I'd be very good at interpreting it, lol.:
3) No quotes that are deemed offensive, regardless of where they come from ? be it the Bible, Koran, Torah or religious leaders.
Everyone should remember this; not everything that is thought should be said, not everything that is said should be written down, and not everything that is written down should be published.
That's my take on it anyway.
The Guide for the Perplexed 2:17:
Hi everyone!
I quite like discussions such as these- The Bear- i find myself very interested in your point of view, i am someone who has not really quite decided what i exactly beleive in, so i love reading difffernet perspectives on things- thank you for your inputs and ideas!
I guess the input i would like to contribute is that i can accept that neither creation- nor evolution can be "proven"- so i therefore feel that BOTH of these "theories" should be taught with the same idea- that we DONT REALLY KNOW 100%-(although im sorry- but i must admit i see more evidence of evolution in the world than i see of religious beleif- at least scietist dont try anfd kill eachother when they disagree- they see it as a good thing and try to learn from eachother's mistakes and discoveries)
i will agree that i am not religious and therefore i dont really think i would appriciate my son being taught at school that "g-d created the world" as its not something i 100% agree with- i would accept however him being taught that some people in the world beleive that "g-d created the world- and this is why....." go on to explain the bible etc and that SOME other people in the world beleive that this other thing happened...... go on to explain big bang theory evolution etc.
And just to throw another thing in- not really sure how it relates- but i have alway had a problem figuring out how different races of people are all children of Adam and Eve... how did the aboriginal people or the african american people fit in that theory?????? Can anyone answer that one for me?
I have read an explanation as to how we ended up with different skin tones dominating in different areas, but it is somewhat lengthy and I don't have time to go through it while working. Just posting to remind myself to sort it out later tonight.
BW
So...people of different languages formed their own 'groups' in different places in the world. Therefore, the gene pool was much smaller in these little groups as they didn't have the entire population to mix with and certain physical features were emphasised in different groups. Just like in a family, everyone has similar features. And as time went on they became more distinct. I'm very scientific aren't I?? lol. Anyway, that's the view I agree with.:
Genesis 11
The Tower of Babel
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. 3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
thank you!! :)
Literal or allegorical... I'm not sure... but I DO know that when my teenage DD acts as if she "knows it all" it really bemuses me ;) Sometimes I think God must feel similarly "Mankind, I love you, but geeze.... maybe you'll only trust and believe in me when you find out the hard way???"
Ok, now that I'm home from work...
The basis of things is the Tower of Babel as SaraJane posted, however, to get a bit more scientific about things...
Consider what happens when people of different races have children - eventually everyone ends up the same sort of caramel colour. This is apparently how people started out.
After the Tower of Babel when the different language groups separated to different areas (things aren't necessarily all that peaceful when you can't communicate well with your neighbours!), people ended up in different areas with different climates and tended to find that different features were more suitable to surviving there.
For example - dark skinned people were more able to survive in the hot regions around the equator as their skin was more resistant to burning, etc. Those with fairer skin tended to not do so well and eventually died out, while the darker skinned people thrived. Eventually that particular people group loses the genetic information for the fairer skin tones and people become quite dark.
In colder climates with little sun, dark skinned people weren't as able to get vitamin D from the sunlight, while those with fairer skin did fine. As a consequence, in those areas the lighter skinned people thrived and the people group eventually lost the genetic information for the darker skin tones.
Other features tended to dominate in different areas through the method that SaraJane outlined.
The genetics of skin tone is actually fairly complicated... but a bit of an example of how this sort of thing can happen can be seen with the twins born in the UK. The parents of the twins each had one black and one white parent. The parents themselves were a light brown colour... one twin was born very dark, the other was born very fair. Originally, this sort of variation in skin colour of siblings would be quite common, but as the people groups separated, it became less and less common and various different skin colours tended to dominate in particular areas.
It's a rough guide to how it happened - I know it doesn't necessarily explain how the darker-skinned eskimoes are able to thrive in an Arctic environment, but they obviously have other physical features which allow them to survive and thrive there while others of us wouldn't cope at all.
I hope that makes sense - I'm quite tired and haven't had the time to dig out the book and look over everything again.
Bath - love your way of looking at things there! I'm often struck when reading the bible how God's relationship with his people has changed. You can see that in the beginning they were very dependent on God for everything, progressing right through to the rebellious teenager stage, through to treating us in a more "adult" manner... although some days I'm struck quite firmly with the image that the majority of humanity hasn't actually moved out of "rebellious teenager". A reflection of the growth in maturity of humanity itself, if you like.
BW
thanks sara and BW... it does make sense.
I have a question.. the only copy of the bible i have is a jehova version.. is this much different to the christian bible?
Starbright- I didn't answer coz I'm not sure but it seems no one else knows either! lol. Do you mean a version by the denomination 'Jehovah's Witness'?? If so then I assume it would be different in some ways because JWs have some different beliefs to mainstream christianity. But I really don't know much about it :)
If you mean a Jehovah's Witness Bible, the only difference is that it mention God's name, Jehovah. The easiest way to tell this is by going to Psalm 83:18 - 'That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.':
Hi there sunflowa! :) The copy i have is from the JW's who visited me- its the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures... i just checked- yep- psalm 83:18 says just that- also everywhere through it that it mentions g-d he is refered to as Jehova. To be perfectly honest- i havent read the whole thing (not even much at all- i started and got as far as Noah's quest with the Arc) sort of why i wanted to check if its still a "standard bible" before i read it all! Just so i dont confuse myself!!
And yeah SJ- from the little i have gathered- there are fundamental differences with JW beleif compared to Christian beleif- which is i guess why i was wondering if their bibles would be vastly different. Otherwise- how are the differences made known IYKWIM.. maybe Sunflowa can help answer that one for us! :)
Sorry Bear for kind of taking the thread on a different track- hope its ok.
There are some differences - we don't believe in the Trinity, or immortality of the soul, or christenings. I can't think off the top of my head of any more major differences, however I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has :)
Just thought I'd let you know StarBright - you sound so excited, you just made my day!! :dance::
Thanks sunflowa!
Ooh...I have a question. I knew some ppl once, I think they were JWs, and they didn't celebrate any holidays or birthdays or anything and instead they all got presents on their parents wedding anniversary. Is this right??
Hi girls!
Glad i brought a smile to your face sunflowa!! I do get a bit excited about talking religions.. i am quite interested in all sorts of religions and how they fit in with my own theories on life etc- which change about as regularly as i change my undies! ;)
SJ i have heard that too that JW's dont celebrate birthdays or christmas- but i hadnt heard of them exchanging gifts on parents anniversaries. I think it has something to do with not rewarding themselves or something... not 100% sure.
OK - a question now that may bring this thread back to the original topic.. if the bibles are not significantly different.. how come the beleifs can differ between christian and JW- unless the exact words have therefore been interpreted differently????
Yes, we don't celebrate Christmas, birthdays, Easter, Valentines Day, Mothers/Fathers Day etc. I know a lot of witness families make a big deal out of anniversaries - our family always did - as its pretty much the only thing we celebrate!:
We also give gifts through the year, not for any special occasion, just because :)
We don't celebrate different holidays for different reasons - generally because they were not instituted by Jehovah or Jesus. Having said that, we do have a similar celebration to Easter, based on instructions at Matthew 26:26-30.:
At times they have been interpreted differently, and some beliefs don't come from the Bible, but were instituted by others along the way. I think the Catholic bible has some extra books to ours, I'm not 100% sure why. I'll hafta research it and come back!:
Thanks Sunflowa.. take your time researching.. no rush!! :)