ideas or encouragement welcome

Hi Ladies,

I have read some of the other threads & while this is similar I am desperate for advice so I am posting this seperately.

Well DS is 7 mnths today & I am booked into Trisillian next week & I know they are going to want to do a form of controlled crying (letting him cry upto 5 mins before I can go to him upto 40 mins) & I am desperate to avoid this but I don't know what else to do. For every sleep I have to rock/jig him to sleep & at 11kgs this isn't something I can keep doing, DS won't sleep longer than 30 mins unless I sleep with him, at night he will occasionaly sleep for an hour or so before I go to bed but not always. He was sleeping in the cradle but he is too big for that so I have tried putting him in the cot but I can barely get him in the cot before he wakes, at the most he sleeps about 15 mins in the cot. So at the moment he sleeps in the 'big' bed until DP wants to go to bed then I go the single recliner lounge where we fall asleep together (I know it isn't very safe & we have a king single coming for us to sleep in) He is also starting to crawl backwards as well & last night I went in twice to find that he had unwrapped himself & was on all fours looking at me & he hadn't made a sound like he usually does so I am also worried about him falling off the bed.

I don't know what else to do he won't feed to sleep, will he always want to be rocked to sleep?? how do I get him to sleep without rocking him?? can anyone help? PLEASE??:pray::pray:

Hun

First of all :hug: I know how hard it can be when you have a baby who just won't sleep. I have struggled with my DS's sleeping since the begining.....

I sort of got the impression from your post that DS sleeps ok with you. Can I ask why it is that once your DP goes to bed you and your baby go to the lounge? It sounds a little unfair to me. Many children will only sleep well if they co-sleep, at 7 months he is still just a little bub and as far as he is concerned the only place to be is with mummy. My DS was exactly the same.. It was around 5 months when DS would only sleep 2 hours (at best) that I ended up putting him in bed with us. He started sleeping 8 hour stretches and I was just overjoyed. DH was really worried about co-sleeping but after a few nights he said he was really comfortable with it.

After a few months DS settled down and now he sleeps in his cot no worries at all.

It just sounds to me that you aren't keep on sleep school so I think it is worth trying co-sleeping (if you are comfortable with it) first.

HTH
Spring

thanks Spring,

I go to the lounge cause DP has major back problems & he just can't sleep on the recliner, the queen bed isn't big enough for all 3 of us which is why we have a new king single bed being delivered that will be big enough for me & DS.

I am not keen on the sleep school thing & I like the idea of co-sleeping which is why we have brought the new bed but he seems to take ages (about an hour +) to go to sleep unless I rock & jig him & at 11 kgs it is doing my back in & I don't know what to do about the day sleeps as he might crawl off the beds as he is now crawling. If I could get him to sleep without having to rock him then I probably wouldn't go to the sleep school but I can't seem to get him to sleep any other way.

He has such a pleasant, happy nature that I don't want to risk losing that via sleep training but it is hard when everyone we speak to tell us to just shut the door on him & leave him to cry it out, I don't want to break the trust we have built up, I just don't want to do that.....

Does anyone know if sleep training & leaving him to cry for upto 5 mins at a time before comforting upto 40 mins & then get them up & try again later will do that?? I have read that controlled crying will but that can involve leaving them to cry upto 20 mins without going into comfort the child for an indefinite amount of time which I would definitely not do but am considering leaving the 5 mins etc... but just not sure what to do.... :rolleyes:

First of all I just wanted to say 11kg @ 7 months!!:jawdrop: Thats some good booby juice you have happening there!

I second what Spring said. You don't sound keen on controlled crying. I would be tempted to kick DP our of the big bed if he is concerned about having DS in the bed with you.
Has Ds always been difficult to sleep?
Has anything changed that may be effecting his sleep, if this is new? Like introduction of solids maybe?
Around 8ish months I think its pretty common for babies to become rather clingy which may explain why he sleeps best with you. Or maybe teeth??

Best I can suggest is if you are comfy doing so, try co-sleeping.

Best of luck. I know its hard.

eta - Ok, fair enough about DP's back. Good on you for getting another bed.
IMO, you are right, you have built a trust that you will be there for DS when he cries. I personally think that yes letting him cry it out may break that. But I have never done CC so I can't say for sure. But honestly if its not sitting well with you, don't fo it. But I do think you should go along to the sleep school thing BUT BE FIRM about what you do & don't feel comfortable doing. If its not what you want just leave.

Could you try Popping him in bed with you & just laying with him, jiggle the bed or even him IFYKWIM, like gently jiggle his leg or something so he can feel your there but your not having to hold him. I still can't get over how heavy he is LOL.
Being persistent is the key to success so even though it may take a week (or even more) he should learn that this is the new way we go to sleep. You are still with him, you are still comforting him but this is the way we now go to sleep. No more jiggling.
I think there is a difference between leaving the room & letting him cry to if you are with him while he gets use to the new way. Sure he may get upset about it & kick up a stink, but you are there with him, comforting him & letting him know its ok.
One thing I use to do with my oldest was to talk or sing to him really softly so he had to be quiet to hear me. In my head it helped keep me sane & not scream when he just wouldn't settle. Find a little song that you can just repeat over & over. I use to do the ABC's & twinkle litttle star.

ANother thing that may be a little out there for you but I i will share anyway.. I use to picture (still do at times) a big blue circle that would surround DS. This circle of blue was full of comfort & sleep. Its just something to focus on when they are really doing your head in KWIM. Also I would leave an my energy with him if I was getting up after he was down. I would picture a ball of energy forming in my hands & then leave that by his side. So he could still feel I was there.

Day sleeps, well these are always hard. But if you keep things simple & quiet he will also learn. With him falling off the bed. Its bound to happen. Sorry but it will. You will feel bad & he will cry but I think its just one of those things that happens. All of mine have fell out of bed at some point. The very first time it happened I was a mess!
But you can teach him now (well start to) how to get off the bed. Show him how to slide off on his belly feet first. You will be surprised how fast they get the hang of it.

OK, well you have probably replied to my post while I have been editing it so I will leave it there & add more as I think of it later.

I always had to rock DS to sleep also. he wasn't as big as your lad but I still found it difficult. I started taking him for a short walk (in his PJ's ready for bed). I'm talking up and down our street.

I found if I did this just before bedtime I got to get some freash air and relax and it chilled him out. Eventually I didn't have to take him for a walk and just stood outside and sang a few songs.

It will get better, I agree, I think that going to a sleep school that control cries is going to distress you and DS. What you are explaining sounds well within the ambit of normal. I know it doesn't feel like it but I'd suggest keep doing what you are doing (attachment parenting) and it will pay off.

My DS, who would need rocking, patting, feeding to sleep. Now goes to bed wide awake and falls asleep no worries.

Just hang in there. From a mother will a sleep challenged baby I know how tough it is. You are doing a great job.

Spring.

Oh, hugs. It's so tough.

My DS did the same thing, and we ended up co-sleeping. it IS much easier to some degree, and to another, it's not. But we pulled the cot up next to the bed and took a side off it, so DS is still in his cot, and we are in the bed - but we're all together too. To create more room IYKWIM.

When DS was younger I used to rock him, and then we started a lay down jiggle to save my back ;) Does that make sense? You can rock him, whilst lying down. Put his head on your shoulder, with your arms around him, and you can just sway back and forth lying down. My DS doesn't need that now - I guess it is a form of transition into other things. He still needs ME, but not the jiggling. So we're getting there. I hope that can work for you too!

I agree with the others, you sound quite anxious at the thought of sleep school (I would find it pretty scary too I think) - maybe it is not for you? I know you can email Pinky McKay (check her website) and she si great at getting baack to you. She does visits too, are you in Vic?
If you do decide to go to Tresillian, I Would just be upfront that you want GENTLE solutions, not CC. They actually do not recommend CC as a policy anymore I believe, but some individual nurses still favour it. So just be honest and make sure you get what suits you - NOT what doesn't. Because the last thing you need is to feel bad about yourself or your parenting.

It sounds like you're doing a great job at a tough age! I hope you find help here.

Hi ndj. I have been wondering how you have been doing. Firstly :hug: . I chose not to go to Trisillian. Just the thought of letting DS cry made me a mess and I felt the same way has you I don't want to risk losing his pleasant, happy nature and breaking the trust we have. We have worked too hard to get where we are. Harrison wouldn't go in his cot last time I posted about his sleeping. A week after that he started going to sleep in our bed. We brought him a comfort toy (igglepiggle) and he started sleeping in our bed, normally feeding to sleep or I lay him down beside me hold him firmly and pat his bottom softly or he lays on his tummy and I pat his back, and he cuddles igglepiggle. He has fallen out of bed Once, he cried I cried, but now he knows not to crawl off the bed. He won't go to sleep being held now. He is too heavy to hold and he is only 8.5kgs, I don't know how you do it. I was sleeping in a recliner as well before and I think that might have made things worst. Things might improve when your bed arrives. Changing sleeping places might be affecting his sleep also. You could find it fixes everything :crossfingers: but don't hold me on this, just giving ideas. I hope things improve for you soon. Good luck :hug:

I've been having problems with DS's sleeping.
He was in our room til about 4 months when we finally got his cot & he started sleeping in DD2's room.
Things were ok. But nt for long, so I left the porta cot in our room & these days he is sleeping in that more. His teeth are playing up, so he's usually in the porta cot til the first time he wakes then our bed.
Have you tried to put him in the cot with some small soft toys to play with? I do this with Jesse. If he's having a good day he might winge for about 5 minutes then he's asleep. (winge/grizzle, not cry)
If he doesn't stop or he gets worse I'll get him.
I have to put him down on his belly. He won't sleep any other way any more.
Patting his bum works when he isn't aving tooth problems.
Sometimes I rock him in the pram (had to tonight), other times I have to feed him.
Sometimes if he's over tired all I can do is cuddle him or walk while he cries.

FJ, thanks I am very proud as he has been fully b/f - he also feeds nearly every 2 - 3 hrs 24/7 so I think that has something to do with it ;) We did start solids at about 5 & 1/2 mnths but in a baby led way & he wasn't eating that much, we have built up & are feeding him twice a day & building that upto 3 times a day.

I think you have hit the nail on the head as there are a few 'new' things happening, he has gone from the cradle to the cot - which is harder for me to put him down in. He has outgrown his wraps, I know I could buy material to make him bigger wraps but once he's asleep he tends to sleep with his hands up & on top of his bedding which he can't do if he is wrapped so I am trying to help him to learn to go to sleep without the wrap. He already has 2 teeth & I think he is starting to get more as well just from little things but they are annoying him more than anything else at the moment. He's never been a great sleeper it is just worse than normal at the moment & it is starting to get to me, hence I have posted for some inspiration.

I love, love, love your blue circle idea & leaving my energy with him, definitely up my alley :doh: I wished I had thought of it before. I have just put him down with this in mind so :crossfingers: we will see how it works. I also think the falling off the bed thing is only a matter of time & I have taught him to 'slide' down me with his back to me so I don't think it would be hard to teach him to go tummy side down instead.

Spring angel, I like the going outside idea especially with summer here & it will probably still be light when I put him to bed, could be a nice way to say goodnight to each other & relax together before going to bed. I am glad to here your DS goes to bed awake now it really gives me hope & was the encouragement I was after. Laying with him & being for him is a lot of hard work but I really think in the end it will be worth it. It is hard sometimes when I am going against the grain & what everyone else around me does (& TBH I use to think cc was that 'best' thing to do but now with DS I can't bear to do it)

Thanks Rah, I'm glad it get's betterer, I have done the swaying on the bed thing, as I call it, & we may have to go back to that. We are changing the way he goes to sleep in some major ways really so I think I have to remember that 'this too shall pass' to quote another BBer.

HP's mum, thanks as well to know that it does get better in time. I too am hoping the new bed is going to help & I think I have to give him some time to get use to going to sleep both in the cot & unwrapped, I'm thinking I might start either with him in the bed first so I can lay with him or arrange the bed & cot so that I can lay in the bed with him in the cot but I can touch him as necessary.

I think I am going to go to Trisillian so that I can say that I gave it a chance, pressure from DP & family, however I will be very firm about the gentle methods - I figure worse case scenario I leave, I won't do anything I am not comfortable, who knows they may have some tricks/tips that I haven't tried yet.

Thank you to everyone who has replied you have restored my faith that I am doing the right thing & sometimes it is hard but it is still the best thing for me & my son.

Thanks Skye, I haven't tried a soft toy but that is the next thing I am going to try. :hug: it can be so trying sometimes huh ;)

Yeah, Jesse is still only BF with 2 - 3 solids a day.
He still feeds every 2 - 3 hours usually. Over night too.
He's getting the flu & is also crawling (if you can call it that!), so he can get him self about the house & isn't too happy with laying still. One of the reasons I give him toys. To distract him.

From another mama of a labour intensive sleeper, lots of hugs. Hang in there, things can and will change but I recommend following your heart/intinct re sleep training.

I love Pinky's stuff too but also got ideas from Dr Sears and Elizabeth Pantley (No Cry Sleep Solution). Google for the sites. My DS also suffered terribly with teething and is sensitive to food which affected his going to sleep at your DS's age and staying asleep now.

DS required lots of rocking/cuddling/walking but now is impatient to climb out of my lap into his cot and snuggle with his 'bear' (one of those flat sheepskin koalas - fabulous cos it's flat and he can roll on it) because his bed is a welcoming place to be which was my ultimate goal. We also coslept for about 4 months this year and wish I had done it earlier. We still do ita bit if he's having a bad night. We manage to fit me, 6 foot DH, DS and the geriatric jack russell in our QS bed (don't ask!). I just remembered that I coslept quite a bit in the day, esp the after lunch sleep as he slept longer and I got a rest.

So, hang in there, he will sleep eventually!

Firstly Nic:hug:, I haven't read through the other posts but just wanted to say that it sounds to me that you want to co-sleep.

I went in to the MBU for my PND but I refused to let them deal with DS's sleeping and co-slept the whole time.I saw the other babies doing the 'controlled comforting' as they put it.Those babies slept horribly the whole time and I don't believe any of the other mothers will keep up what they were taught once the get home.It was distressing to listen to them cry and I even had a cry myself and they were not even my babies!
Our babies are only small for such a small time.They want to be close to us, they need us to feel safe.Sam slept through the first time the other night, so whoever said co-sleeping babies don't sleep through the night is full of baloney.

I believe there is no better feeling than snuggling up to your child at night and knowing that they feel warn and secure.It happens everywhere in the world.Its only us in the west that have this idea that babies should be separated from there parents.I think by letting them cry themselves to sleep we are teaching them to suppress there emotions and showing them that if that it's not OK to cry.You have to wonder if it's this type of thing that makes our race so scared to show emotion.Anyway I'm just rabbiting on .......

There is some good books out there on gentle ways to get your baby to sleep.Try anything from Pinky McKay(I think they sell her books on BB) and 'The No Cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantly is pretty good.She co-slept with all of her children.

I will return you email later today.

Laura xx

Do you have a swivelly office chair? They are great for "rocking" a baby, cause you can just hold the baby and swivel the chair with your feet.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

thanks blackbird, mis_tree what you do/did doesn't sound like cc imo anyway. Thanks Laura, I've been waiting to here about the MBU to see if they do the whole CC thing or not, I hate the way some people repackage it as controled comforting, it is all the same thing really.

Well today I put him to sleep completely unwrapped & laid down with him on the 'big' bed & fed him to sleep & generally stroked him & kept him quite. This afternoon he went to sleep after 30 mins (after being up for 4 hrs :doh:) & tonight he went to sleep after an hour but I don't care cause my back doesn't ache & he is learning to go to sleep himself - goergous (sp) little man he is fell asleep on my arm on his tummy, so beautiful, he stirred typically after 30 mins but I just went in there & he went back to sleep straight away I didn't have to rock him to sleep.

So while this is all baby steps & may not seem much to some people for me this is a HUGE success
doing a little happy :dance:

bay steps are perfectly fine, after all he is a baby!

njd, celebrate every single one of your baby steps, no matter how small they are.

Fast forward several more baby steps and you'll find you've taken a giant leap (without the stress of having tried to make a huge change all at once) - gentle for you, gentle for ds.

Before you know it you'll be putting bubba down drowsy and have ds go to sleep without any help from you at all ...

Hey, I was going through the same thing with my DD when she was 8mths. I took her to the sleep clinic not knowing it was controlled crying!! When I got there I was so upset as I really didn't want to go there. It reassured me that I didn't want to continue it at home.

The way I look at it is that the baby spends 9mths inside of you, so the baby needs a good 9mths of being really close to you. I think personally controlled crying is teaching my bub that I won't come when she needs. I slept with my DD for 12mths, until I stopped breast feeding. Then I made a big deal out of her having her own room and her own bed. We set it up together. She had no problems moving to that room.

I also never liked the thought of bubs going to sleep so upset. I know if I was ever really upset and went to sleep I never had a great sleep.

Also another thing if you look over time, with most cultures they would sleep with their children. Its only been in recent decades its deemed bad to sleep with your baby!!!

its hard but u just gotta presisit with whatever it is u both decide