trouble positioning & attaching - big BB's & short arms!

I'm currently using a nipple shield for inverted nipples with a 3.5 week old (my first). I've seen an LC and we've all agreed we'll keep the shield going at present. BUT I'm now finding it really difficult to position & attach him.

Just when I seem to get him on and attached well, he arches back and pops himself on. The other option is to use a death grip to try and keep him in place - but that doesn't feel right either! My assumption is that he's uncomfortable in some way which is why he's moving/popping off. After our LC visit on Sat we agreed I'd use cradle hold on the left BB and football hold on the right.

In the hossie, the middies suggested you should be able to carry the baby in the football hold. I just can't seem to. He's more resting on a pillow with my hand supporting behind the shoulders. Should I be able to pick him up in that hold? I'm fairly short (5'2") and got big BB's. My nipples are below the height of my elbows (woe is me, gravity loves my BB's far too much! :o), so I just feel I can't hold him, or it's taking immense effort to hold him. Oh and I'm sitting in a great BFing chair that is a good size for me, with a footstool, and typically using a pillow to support the bulk of his weight (but have played around with different pillow thicknesses & cushions etc). I've also joined ABA (for those who read my other thread) and I'm going to call my LC tomorrow to ask about this too.

Similarly in the cradle hold, I feel like i'm twisting to get my right hand behind his neck/shoulders but to line up nose to nipple I can't see a different way to do it. Has anyone else who's short with big BB's had this problem? Or is this just a learning to BF thing and we'll learn the best way to stick ourselves together over time? Obviously the shield doesn't help either, as once he's flailing, just as I get him lined up well with a good gaping mouth... one little fist knocks the shield off! I've tried feeding him clothed (average), swaddled (he seems even MORE agitated) and skin-to-skin (best result, but the fists are free!).

Love to hear your thoughts/wisdom, TIA.

I wouldn't worry too much about being able to carry him in the football hold.
Maybe get a BFing pillow to help.
I'd be pretty confident that the more practise you both have the better it'll get.
Maybe try laying down to feed him.
Good luck.

Hun, big BBs can make it really difficult, but it does get easier once bub gets a bit bigger and learns what to do. I have a friend who couldn't manage to feed without a bfing pillow until her DS was well over 1. I believe that LCs don't recommend using pillows now, but I know it really helped her. Have you tried feeding lying on your side?

I'm not sure what else to suggest, but I encourage you to stick with it. It will get easier. In the meantime you are doing a fantastic job. Hang in there hun. :hug:

:hug: Laying down could work, give that a shot. Do you think a mirror or something could help you see what you're doing? Let us know how you go with the LC.

Oh, and as for the flailing fists - I learned the art of pinning arms to their body while they attached. But you could always try starting with them swaddled, and then letting them loose once they're attached. To be honest, the easiest was when dh or a friend/relative was around to hold their arms out of the way so I could focus on attachement. How annoying are those little arms?!!

i have big boobs and need to support it at every feed so i have ds on a pillow to feed. If we r out i fold up a blanket for hight and lean him on that so i dont hold him a lot of the time as such, i cant do the let go of boob and put arm around baby thing as boob falls out if his mouth.

I found football hold didnt help.

i get a sore hand supporting boob

Thanks for the replies. I just tried ringing ABA earlier.
They thought he might have some nipple confusion which wasn't helping. Suggested I talk to my LC re cup feeding rather than bottle feeding. So now i feel guilty that I've given him too much bottle - but then I haven't managed to get him on successfully hardly at all recently - so then I don't want to starve him when he's screaming & hungry!

Anyway, she seemed to have some good suggestions. So I was all motivated. Plus I'd written a list of 3 positives about BFing earlier, and we'd written down what DH can do to help me (basically sit, cheer, hold fists etc). And I joined ABA. I'm so constructive, and I was feeling good/positive about trying another BF.

Anyway, we had an awful feed, I couldn't get him on (10 mins trying) - then just cried through the entire feed as I gave him the bottle - then ran out of EBM, so gave him FF. I'm trying so hard to do the right thing, but i end up bawling every other feed. Then I think that isn't helping cos I'm supposed to be all relaxed and positive - how i"m supposed to do that i don't know! Right now i just feel like giving up. My sister fed EBM for 6 weeks before she got hers on, then successfully BF for yonks. So part of me says it's not the worst thing in the world if I just express & bottle feed. It's just time consuming. And every time I end up doing a feed from the bottle then expressing to try and get enough - and i KNOW i'm not a failure, but emotionally... I just feel so yuck about it.

oh and i haven't tried lying down. S'one helpful (MHCN) told me it would be too hard with big BB's & shield. And right now i"m not feeling really positive about trying something new.... but tomorrow I might try. Maybe.

Sorry, midnight whingey post. Presumably I'll look at this tomorrow and cringe. Oh and I'm nervous re tomorrow cos it's DH's first day off at work, then he's out in the evening too. I don't think I can get him on at all without some help. But I can't really hire a fist holder for every 3-4 hours!!!!!

I have big boobs and very short arms. PM me your email and I'll send you pictures of some ways to feed with this hassle...

Hope you are feeling better today.

:hug: I hope you are feeling better today too.

You will get there, hun. :hug: as baby grows so does his little mouth and his ability to get as much of your bb in as he needs to. This is probably why your sister found it was better after 6 wks.

Good luck with your journey. It sounds like you are doing everything you can to get over this hurdle!

Thank you all for the encouragement, it really helps. The rest of the night was pretty awful and I kept feeling upset about it all (and didn't get much sleep between bottle feeding & expressing). I didn't even try to put him on during the night/morning. But you know you're not feeling great when you're sobbing away as you bottle feed and then realise that there's tears all over his little suit!!! :wall:

So today I rang my LC and she had a few suggestions, including giving him 40ml EBM to calm him a little before putting him on. She also suggested trying a bit of lansinoh under the shield and that helped heaps. The casual "flailing fist" was must less likely to knock it off. She also said to make sure we have lots of nice skin-to-skin snuggles. I realised that the last few days, all our contact has been trying to get on the BBs! No wonder he was starting to get antsy. She's also going to come out again, and is keen for me to massage under his little tongue & encourage tongue poke outs as much as possible for his little tongue tie.

So i tried again at 2pm on my own. And I GOT HIM ON!!! 16 mins on the left then 15 on the right. We had a bit of a leak on the left and I was thinking uh-oh bad attachment, but then managed to shift him a smidge and it righted! I focussed on getting him in good position, keeping relaxed, and moving my hand further down his shoulders (I think I was too much on his neck/head before). I also didn't worry about trying to hold his weight up at all, but just on trying to position us both well. Because he was WAY calmer after the 40ml, I found it much easier to do. He still was hungry after both sides, so we topped up with a smidge of EBM.

Next feed 5.20pm. Not quite as good, only 10 mins on the right and I don't think he got much (he was on & off). Gave him the bottle, felt ok.

Before the next feed we had big snuggles in bed, it was lovely. Then 9.15pm feed, tried to put him on straight away and he started to arc up. So we grabbed the 40ml EBM. Then, 25 mins on the left then 15 mins on the right. Cradle hold for both and put him down successfully with no follow-up EBM after the initial 40ml! YAY :bluecheer:

Oh and best of all - every attachment was just me (all using the nipple shield BTW). No-one was holding a fist or helping me to get him on. So that was thrillingly self-sufficient. And I'm actually feeling ok about trying to put him on again tonight. Even if some feeds are better than others, I feel now that a few good feeds wasn't just a fluke.
:hooray:
I CAN do this.
I WILL do this.
I AM doing this!!!

Thank you all again - I'm sure this isn't the end of our BF'ing support needs & journey. The support is just a lifesaver :hug:
Belfie

Yay! That little bit of EBM sounds like a great trick - he's not quite as frantic and desperate which gives you a bit of room there! As someone else mentioned too, the older they get, and the bigger their mouth gets, the easier it becomes.
Keep up the good work! :D

Belfie that is so friggin awesome! You are the best!
I know exactly how hard it is in those first few weeks - really hard. As for the positioning - the most important part is that he gets on and gets enough milk. I could never hold my baby like the midwives said as I too have big boobs and bubs was very long. I bf for 11 months, I always held my boob and he always lay on a pillow. Keep your eye on the ultimate aim - him getting fed - and dont get too hung up on what other people (especially non LCs) say you 'should' do. If it works for you then you should do it. One day you will just realise that the whole thing is easier and from then on it is a breeze.
Good job!

Hey Belfie,

Good for you! I had trouble latching ds on too at first. It actually got better the moment I was alone with him. Less pressure I guess. I too topped him up with EBM at first. But you know what, as soon as it was just us and I let him do it his way and tried to relax about it all, it went fine!
I don't have big bb's but I had engorged breasts al lot which made it harder for him to latch on too.

So my advise is: stay calm and find a way that works for you. If its easier to use a pillow or whatever to hold him in position, do that. Lying down worked really well for me.

Good luck!

Well done, Belfie. Take each bf, one at a time and do your best. It sounds like things are getting better, and the more you are able to feel confident and relaxed the more improvement you'll see. Be prepared for some not to go as well and just take a deep breath and try again next time.

You are right - you CAN do this! :hug:

You go girl!!!! .... and baby boy!!!!! :leap:

I have been lucky, my little fella opens wide and has beautiful kissy lips so no probs attaching, but I had heaps of issues with my DD and I don't even have big boobies!! :redface:

I always say that breastfeeding is a learned skill and not "natural" in that you really can't just put them on after birth and there you go!

Keep telling yourself what a great job you are doing - Xander will feel your vibes.

At least you can express - I have been hopeless this time around and can still only get off 30 ml :rolleyes:

Just think when we celebrate our bubba's birthdays on 25/09/09 we will look back and think, wow - I did it! Then start thinking about another LOL - not me - this is my last ;)

What a difference a couple of days can make - keep us posted how it's going lovey.

Woo hoo!! Well done hun. That's great news that it's getting better, and another LC visit will likely help even more. Excellent work. You are doing so well.

You go girl!!
Isn't it an amazing feeling when it starts getting better!
Congrats & good luck with the rest of your bfing journey. I hope its as long as you want it to be.

thanks again for the support :clap:
SamiH, I'm using the same machine we had in the hossie to express, so that makes life easier. BUT I did start with only 30ml and now it's varied anywhere up to 170ml (that was a bumper crop that one!). Sounds like you and your Zander are doing great guns which is fab to hear :dance:

The update is... we're doing well! He put on a whopping 810g between 2 and 4 weeks :o. The formula is pretty much a thing of the past.... and slowly, slowly, we're having more feeds that don't even start with the EBM. We've also been having lots of snuggles and love and I think he's definitely happier in boobie-town than he was! I did have one night with 3 bad feeds in a row (just couldn't get him happily attached)... so few deep breaths (thanks Jennifer!), smiled & gave him some EBM in a bottle. And sure enough, the next day was ok again. So that was a big relief.

Just occasionally we have a feed where he just seems to want more & more. THe other night he spent 30 mins on the left, 12 on the right... then took 40ml EBM, then 30ml, then another 30ml. STILL seemed hungry, so 50ml of formula (I was out of EBM). Yup, that's a total of 150ml of top-up!!!!! :o And then FINALLY he wasn't hungry anymore and went to sleep! So I can only assume that he just didn't get much on the breast that night. Seemed a bit weird to me, so I'm just making sure I can hear him swallowing and I know it's all happening. Plus the shield is still more prone to slipping on the right BB, so I'm being extra careful with that one.

So saying, the times I have a BB-only feed... no bottles to wash, no expressing required.. omg it's just bliss! I love the feel of his little body snuggling into mine so contentedly... beats the cr*p outta expressing & bottlefeeding!

Oh and I didn't end up having the LC out again yet, as we both agreed we were doing well for now, and we'll probably have her back in a few weeks if we start trying to get rid of the nipple shield (or if things change!). Oh and yeah... 4 weeks down! YAY us!

Big yay to you!

Well done, Belfie. :clap:

The better you do and the more confidence you gain the closer you'll be to your next steps: getting rid of top-ups and the nipple shields. What a great job you've done!! :cheer:

Well done Belfie
I am glad it is improving for you, i hope it continues.
i found it was easier to not think ahead and just concentrate on now and try and relax with it. Also finding the most comfortable way for you to feed was very important as i had alot of advice but when it comes down to it, do what feels right for you and bubs.

Once again well done you are doing a great job....

Hello! Just wanted to drop in and say hi. Hadn't seen a pic of Xander, and he is absolutely beautiful, Im so happy for you! Well done on surviving the first month, it can be sooo hard. Im glad the BF issues are getting better. I had all those probs with DD, and Im a bit concerned about a repeat this time. Am trying to go into the whole thing with an open mind, and positive attitude, Im sure it will help! Anyway, so glad you're both doing well. Take carexx:D

Thanks Beaksie :hug:
I'm slightly amazed to realised how long we've been BF'ing now... woo hoo. Just one feed at a time... one day at a time. All the very best for you - the support in here is brilliant & I'm sending you great feeding vibes - but sounds like you won't need them with the open mind & positive attitude - atta girl!

Cheers,
Belfie

soooo we're back again! Last few days I'm having trouble getting him to attach well again. He attaches then arches back & pops off... cries.. is hungry... repeat ad infinitum! I've varied between persisting or doing a number of attempts before going to EBM.

I'm a bit torn... I'm worried that maybe he's doing this because the breast is too much like hard work, so I'm accidentally reinforcing him going to "easy-town" on the bottle... or if I persist, am I just giving him a negative association on the breast? Before we were able to do 20+ mins quite happily (on the left in partic)... but now i'm struggling to get him on for 10 mins (and it's less than that, or not at all for some feeds). On the bright side, I've switched to a football hold on the right, and he's now doing 10 mins where before I could barely get him on it. But where he WAS attaching well on the left, he's now often not attaching properly and I'm finding it painful so if he doesn't pop himself off, I take him off! He wants to slide up & down the nipple shield like it's a lollipop.. nuh-uh!!! I tried attaching without the shield and it wasn't brilliant (and I think I need my friendly LC to help us start attaching without the shield).

Should i persist with the breast even when he's getting very unhappy? Or should I do a number of attempts then go EBM (or formula when I'm out of EBM)?
I'm going to call my LC again tomorrow. But another question in my head... I'd been kinda wanting to get more settled feeding with the shield before we tried to get rid of it. Or should I just be trying to get rid of it now, and not worrying about whether the shield is going well?

And to add to my grumpiness, I've got an episiotomy that doesn't seem to be healing well, (sorry if TMI), hemorrhoids (I think!?) and a head cold. So when I'm struggling to attach him, all these things become my excuse to go to EBM. Am I being smart to cope or using these things as a cop-out? :dunno:

note to self: 6 weeks on thursday... 6 weeks on thursday. I'm scared that I'll get to 6 weeks, and then be tempted to give up. Pls help me to not use it as a cop-out. i have SO many reasons to BF him it's not funny - allergies from both me & DH, significant food malabsorption issue from me, food sensitivities (inc dairy) from DH, plus I had GD and there's type II diabetes in the family.... so the breastmilk is sooooo good for him. And while he's had a bit of formula, 95% of his food has been breastmilk. Sorry I'm rambling now - this is my late-night pep-talk.

Thanks for listening.

So far doing what the LC suggests has been pretty effective for you - so get another lesson and hop back on the bike!
I would just focus on getting BM into bub, and I didn't care how it happened - as bub got stronger, BF became easier, and expressing became more of a pain in the butt. You will be very lucky to get a screaming, unhappy baby to attach properly- so if some EBM calms him down once you are at that point then use it. But always try to attach first - sometimes he will surprise you and attach well, and other times it will be pretty ordinary.

And you must look after you as well - get the TMI looked at too!

Belfie, you are doing well, even though it sounds like you're doubting yourself. Try to give yourself a big pat on the back for how far you've come, despite all of your troubles. A lot of women give up when faced with the same obstacles, so it's a true testament to both your commitment and the great support you've built up around yourself that you're still going.

:hug: see your LC again. And phone the ABA hotline in the meantime, just to get a friendly voice on the end of the advice. Keep going, one day at a time. You will soon be looking back on this as an experience. 6 weeks is your first milestone, but like you I found it helpful to have others. I have heard of Mums who got to 12 weeks still experiencing difficutlies and then overcome them. So maybe think of your next goal - 3 mths?

Good luck!

Belfie you have done so well to even get this far with all the obsticles you have overcome. And i know you must be feeling crappy with the cold and other issues you need to look after yourself also. I am with jennifer give your lc a call and go from there, take one feed at a time and hopefully it will improve for you...:hug:

Belfie,
Another option, if your insurance will cover it, is a lactation day stay session. I went to one at Jessie Mac (the private bit of Monash Med Centre), and it was really helpful. It's 2 or 3 mums and their bubs, an LC for the day, meals and comfy chairs provided, and essentially a determination to get things to improve - with the time to try several things over several feeds. They run them every couple of weeks, as they get Mum's together - so if you are interested, give them a ring soon, and they can let you know when the next one is.
hugs
Kate

Thanks for the encouragement ladies.

Firstly... I made it to 6 weeks... YAAAAAAY!
Secondly - Kmn, I was booked into a lactation clinic at Mitcham Private but it got cancelled and there were no other dates offered, so I ended up going with the private LC instead... so I think we'll keep doing that for the moment, but good to know re Jesse Mac.
Jennifer13 - you are so right I WAS/AM doubting myself. Have resolved to do a couple of things...
Firstly - believe in myself (no doubting the belfie!)

Secondly - put up or shut-up. I really want to be less stressed about this... either it works and we attach well or we bottlefeed... happily! I don't want to put myself through the ringer about this. I've been doing bottle feeds overnight and expressing as I'm finding that we're much more efficient and happier doing that. If I was attempting the BB's unsuccessfully THEN bottle THEN expressing it was taking YONKS! (and I was getting upset). Now in the daytime we're trying the BB's and we both have a better success rate and less upset on my part.

Thirdly - spoke to my LC today (I'd been procrastinating ringing her). She's coming out next week and we'll try some shield-less attaching. BF'ing is really really inconsistent at present. Just when I'm despairing (and post here!) suddenly we'll have awesome feeds for a few days... but overall our trend of BF'ing versus bottle is going the wrong direction which is not what I was expecting/hoping for at this stage. He tends to leak lots of milk when he's feeding, no matter how well he seems to be attached! The nipple is good shape, the position is good, he's happy - I can't seem to attach him any better.. but he's dripping milk out the side (which suggests he's NOT attached well). Plus he's a very snuffly/snorty baby so I don't know if that's playing a part with how he's feeding - I feel he's opening his mouth to breath and dribbling lots. So my LC is going to look at that. Plus he's sometimes had ages on the breast then is still hungry and getting frustrated so I can't get him back on happily, then we end up doing top-ups. But on the bright side, I'm really starting to realise that the bad patches don't last for ever (even though the good patches don't either haha!) so everything passes and that helps me to feel less stressed.

Eep this is turning into my blog at this rate! But thanks for reading and the support. We're hanging in there! (oh and the TMI stuff is getting better too, so that's good).

Yay Belfie!! Just flying by, I've had a snuffly baby and sometimes saline solution in their noses (like Fess) 10mins before helped them breathe.

And Si sometimes leaks milk, he doesn't have great attachment but it doesn't matter for him because I think I flow really fast into his mouth. I actually think if he attached 'properly' like his brother did, he'd be overwhelmed, I think his way of attaching holds back the flow a bit? Is it possible that you have generous supply? The arching back I read a few posts back could be that too - Si used to pull off just as I was letting down (annoying) if I insisted on him attaching the textbook way, I guess he'd get overwhelmed...so I started leaning right back at the start of the feed.

Anyway, besides all my ramblings, well done for keeping on, you are doing so well (and from your pics, he is gorgeous)!

Hi Belfie. Just wanted to drop by and see how it's all going. Sorry you're still having an issue with attachment. It's hard isnt it?? Well done on your persistence though. I reckon if you can hang in there it will get better. Most people say the first 6 weeks are the hardest. Anyway, keep up the good work (I sound like a school teacher :redface:), and take care xx

hey hun..

u are doing such a great job..

im sure u have seen my thread in here about all the trouble im having with BFing..

U are pure inspiration to me i swear. Im thinking that i might give Mia some EBM before a feed to, just to calm her down. Tho it doesnt really help her sleeping issues.

Sorry to jump in on this thread. just letting u know im sooooo proud of u! u are a great mummy!

Aaaw Hollye aren't u a sweetie! I feel like such a fraud when I read your lovely comments :redface:, cos I've just decided to give myself a break for the rest of the weekend - so we're going EBM. So I don't feel I deserve any praise at all. But... he is much more miserable & screaming when I BF him compared to the bottle :( so neither of us are enjoying BF'ing at present.... but with the EBM he's a cute snuggly gorgeous little smiley man. So here's hoping the LC can get us back on track on Monday. We're going to have a bath and lots of cuddles and enjoy each other in the interim. It's funny that I don't feel I deserve your praise because it's not working for us at present. Silly me. I guess I'm being too hard on myself (that's what DH says) but it's just so frustrating!!!

Beaksie, thanks so much - and oooh can't wait to hear your announcement

Nelle - I've been using FESS but not before a feed, usually part-way through (it helps wake him up as he doesn't like it at all & snorts madly - so cute/funny). Once I'm feeling brave enough to BF again, I'll take extra special note of if he's feeding better afterwards.

Sooo.. I'm crossing my fingers for some magically brilliant shield-less attaching on Monday... even though I know it's not likely to be that easy. Oh well. Another day... another boob... or something like that!

Belfie - hang in there hun - it really is hard to see through the haze when you get in a sleep deprived funk - it does get easier really soon :)

You've done so well in weighing up your options and stuck with expressing and BF when of course it seems much easier to go bottle when times are tough - well done!

u deserve every single bit of my praise sweety! we are in this together and u are doing a great job! just look at that beautiful boy YOU have created. Hang in there.. and good luck for monday..

ill be making another appointment for me on monday with the LC again.. i like going there anyway, spend the whole day and just concentrating on me and Mia. Do you like going?

Aaaw you're all so sweet! Hollye - I've been going with a private LC who comes to my house. The clinic I was meant to go to was cancelled and they weren't in a hurry to give another date IYKWIM...so I thought stuff it, I'll just get the private IBCLC. The continuity has been good even though it's more expensive.

On the down side, I've been totally upset tonight trying to work out what to do, but really knowing that we need more help with the BF'ing and a brief break is probably the way to go. I think I'd just put heaps of pressure on myself to be doing ok by 6 weeks - which is kinda silly and I hadn't meant to do it. Anyways... *sigh*... onward and upward, and our good patches always come after our bad ones. Plus we always have better BF'ing after some BF'ing time out (maybe that sounds odd) but it seems to break our negative cycle and give us a chance for more love & snuggles (and less frustration!).

On the bright side, I think I've had more insight into our problems! After Nelle's comment re FESS, I was feeding tonight (bottle) and he was dribbling heaps! I thought it was the teat, so moved him away to try and see where the leak was. It wasn't the bottle at all, it was my little man..he's stopping to breathe!!! Suck.. suck.. open mouth breath... DRIBBLE! So all this time I thought my attachment must be dodgy (cos of the milk everywhere)... I think the breathing/snuffling has been a much bigger part of our challenges than I'd realised. So I gave him some FESS... and after a huge snorting session (he sounded like a tuba for a bit!!!!), he then fed much better So that gives me more hope for our next BF, which I have resolved to do when I feel ready & relaxed.

And now i'm off to the sofa, as DH is snoring even louder than DS... so lucky am i!! :rolleyes:

Hope the Fess helps things.

Don't doubt yourself, belfie - you ARE doing this!