weaning, bed-sharing (or not!) + sleeping (or not!)

my ds is nearly 17mo. he has been BF, carried and slept in and out of our bed all his little life. he has never been a great sleeper.
he is a happy, excited, spirited and very friendly and engaged toddler (and always was, people were always amazed at how much he looks and his energy).

from about 10mo he dropped his day feeds. he eats 3 meals plus snacks, loves water and i have introduced milk as a drink recently and he loves that. i introduced the milk because after my stint at weaning, he took to a few extra day feeds so i have tried to discourage that and encourage the milk. i always feed him to bed then when he wakes at night.

this is becoming a problem -- the night feeds as he is waking more and more -- sometimes every hour! yes, all 4 molars are coming through and poking through now -- for a couple of weeks. he is otherwise healthy. sometimes i can soothe him with water, very rarely if he is in our bed, i can soothe with a pat (very rarely).

all things and advice on night weaning seems to suggest that your toddler was sleeping ok before. i have tried to wean and he screamed for over 1.5 hours with out looking like he was going to stop. however the next day he was no different to me, i couldn't try it again, so we have stopped.

i don't know what to do! i am thinking that i should move him out of the cot, maybe putting a double mattress there so that i can sleep with him to soothe, then leave him? maybe the best is just our bed? maybe none of it will work?

sorry for such a long post -- does anyone have any advice for me in terms of night weaning and sleeping?

thanks!

so are you willing to keep sleeping with him in your bed? or did you want him sleeping in his cot?

yes, rainforest, that is a very good question.

we are happy with him sleeping in our bed in theory, but in practice, i generally end up on the couch (unless i'm in bed first, then DH is on the couch). DS takes up a bit of room when its there and when we are both in bed with him he does toss and turn and do the 'H'!

i would dearly love him to be happy sleeping in his own room by himself ... does that sound really selfish? i just never imagined that parenting would be like this or that i would take it on like this.

yep! i know exactly what you mean lol
i am still co-sleeping with my ds but he has weaned. when he wakes now (usually 1-3 times a night) he needs to be cuddled back to sleep, but i have to admit he has been sleeping longer stretches since i stopped the bfing. what happens if you give him a back rub/cuddle/spoon back to sleep? does that work at all?

can i ask you how you weaned?

sometimes i can do that ... like tonight, i tried the BF to sleep and he fell asleep really easily but woke 3 times in 1.5 hours! the final time, i didn't give him a boob, just water from his cup and straw (he drank a lot) then i just took him to our bed and he kinda woke a bit because i had to put him down to close the curtains etc. so i spooned him and he snuggled right into me. whenever i tried to leave he would wrap a leg over me or something. i left when he was fast asleep which only took 10 min really. but don't forget he was exhausted because he kept waking! i can't imagine that it would happen regularly!

there have been times at night when i could just shussh him in our bed (never in his cot). it has been rare. generally he will whine or even scream for a boob.

he actually self-weaned when he was 14months. it was around the same time as i started giving him a bottle of cows milk before every sleep and he just took to it really well- i have a feeling maybe me being pg was affecting my milk? idk, but he just loves cows milk so stopped wanting bfs so much..and then gradually just stopped. i also stopped offering him boob in bed though, instead i would sort of roll him over and spoon him and snuggle right up to him and kiss him and somehow it just started working in putting him back to sleep.
have you read 'no cry sleep solution' at all?

no i haven't read that -- i have heard of it. i will look for it in the library.
i have just read the nursing mother's guide to weaning, but it was no help really -- although very interesting.

i have also tried offering cow's milk during storytime before bed. he took it once, but never again (he loves cow's milk though during the day).

did you give in bottle or cup? maybe i should give it in a bottle like his water (ones with the straw). there are only 2 places he really associates with nursing -- our bed and his rocking chair ...

Perhaps it's not the road you'd want to go down, but I found DD starting sleeping better (in her own bed) when I introduced a bottle at about 10m. I did it because I felt she was waking in the night (up to 8 times a night) for the comfort of the BF. I'm all for allowing comfort but it was getting me to the point of sleep-deprived insanity, so I cut off all night BF after the last one at bedtime, and allowed her one bottle during the night (after midnight) The rest of the time when she woke, I held her and rocked her back to sleep (through some tears) It took maybe 3 nights.
From that point on, her sleeping has gotten progressively better in a gradual way. I still welcome her to our bed if that's what she wants, but it's not regular these days (makes it a lot better for DH and I - we all sleep better) And now she is sleeping through most nights.
Anyway, many do not recommend introducing a bottle, but it's been wonderful for us and I think it was the right path to take. HTH a bit.

Hey nox,
Your DS and my DD are little soul mates I think.. I remember sharing posts with you ages ago about day sleep issues! My DD (17 months) is also a "bad" sleeper, always has been...

I am still BF her twice most days, usually at 3 or 4am, and at 6 or 7am when she wakes up. She dropped all day feeds herself, but was addicted to night feeds to get back to sleep. Up until quite recently I was feeding her up to five times a night, I was a zombie. BUT, now she just needs a quick cuddle and a sip of water most times. DH does most of these...

What helped for us was actually dropping her bedtime bb feed. This did make me very sad, I loved that bath/story/bb routine, and it used to be a lovely long feed, but she was getting to nearly 15 months I think. We started giving her cows milk in a sippy cup before bed, and DH started putting her to bed, and she slept fine, and then was more willing to accept DH / cows milk / water in a sippy cup when she woke up. I still had to give her feeds in the early hours of the morning, as she was just too hard to settle otherwise, but that's Ok with me. It really was a bit sad for me to drop that 7pm feed, but it gave DH a bigger role in her bedtime ritual, and I think she is much more willing to be put back to sleep by him now too. If she sees me at night time she automatically wants "baboos".

Sorry I can't help at all from the co-sleeping perspective... our DD is totally happy in her own cot and wont sleep at all if she's in with us..

Good luck with it all. I totally hear you
x

thanks CrystalBoo -- did you also have someone other than you put her to sleep at this time? how long would she struggle when you were saying no? do you think that my ds's 1.5 hours would have just passed if i had continued?

Campari -- lol hello again!!! i never stop being desperate for some advice!! how did you transition the boob to cup? i can only imagine that he would go crazy, knowing i am around and not getting it ... was it just suddenly dad did it? can you also do it when ds is not around -- or if it is you putting her down she needs boob? how long did this take?

i may try it too ...

Nox, when I first cut off the night BF, I would give her a little bit of bottle, then BF to sleep as that is the way she was used to going off. Then, if she woke after that, I would sit in the chair with her held lying across so that if she threw a tantrum and struggled I could just hold a little tighter. She did protest, especially the first few times, but I held on and continued to rock and do the 'shhh' until she basically wore out, but that took only about 10mins for the worst time (after that, less each time) I took the 7-12am shift and DH did the early morning. I made sure he knew exactly how I was doing it. It didn't take her long, only a few nights.
One and half hours is a long time - that must be exhausting for you! Perhaps he is able to go that long because he is older than DD was when I did it and she tired quicker? They are all so different, it's hard to know what will work. The only other thing I can suggest is that if you do decide to do that kind of thing, make sure he is full at bedtime, not sick or physically uncomfortable in any way and then be in the calm frame of mind that once you start you will not give in. If you can, plan for a week of hard nights - if it takes less, you get a nice bonus! During that phase of learning, I didn't let her in my bed at all, but now I can bring her in if she wants it, and know that she will go back to her own bed happily after a bit of a cuddle.
The 'no-cry' book was really helpful for us too, I also recommend it. I had to be a little tough in the end but picked up heaps of useful tips from it.
Oh, and one more thing that may help. When I held her, I put her cuddle blankie thing in between us - she now uses that as her way to go to sleep.
Good luck, I hope you find something that works for you both.

Hey Nox,
We started one night purely by accident, I was out and running late, and couldn't get home by 7. DH just did her normal bedtime routine, and gave her her sippy cup with milk in it, and it worked! She was in bed asleep when I got home at 7:15! We just kept doing it. It didn't matter at all that I was there on subsequent nights, and now it doesn't matter whether its me or DH that gives her her "ilk", although I try to get DH to always do it so he feels more important :shhh: She settles so well for DH now, much more easily than for me... She had always had a sippy cup that we used for water and small amounts of cows milk, so she was used to the cup aspect of it. She only drinks about 40ml of milk from the cup at a time, sometimes less.

Maybe you need to go out one night, and just see what happens if DS is left alone with your DH, and see how he copes? I was actually at the hairdressers when it worked for us.. Give that a try maybe?! :lol:

good luck..

Thanks ladies. I wish it were all more 'natural' you know?!

I will def try that book though. And there is some logic in the just go out and see strategy -- but I am so nervous! Maybe that is part of the problem?

My current logic is that I will wait until after this heat wave of course (45 degrees in Melbourne -- yay -- not!) and I would like to wait until he has passed 18mo. I have heard the sep anx lessens?

I have just noticed that he stays asleep longer when I put him down into our bed straight off -- as I have just done tonight -- whereas last night he had already woken a couple of times he has been asleep now for an hour. Maybe there is something in the amount of space he has in the cot?

I have tried milk then breast but he rejected the milk. It may be a situation of just not being there ...

Your post reminded me of two things. One, DD is 18m and I have noticed a massive jump in maturity, understanding and independence over the past month or so, so maybe your DS will also go through that soon. Two, with the milk thing, it's probably naughty, but as I was getting her used to a bottle, I would give it to her on her flip out sofa while she watched some tv, then BF in her room. That way, I wasn't near her when she had the cow's milk.

Thanks CrystalBoo -- why was it important not to be near her with the cow's milk? It is very encouraging to hear that about the 18mo mark ... even if you are just saying that to make me feel hopeful!!! LOL it's worked!

She just wasn't interested in the bottle if I held her to give it to her in the same position as when I BF. I used the tv time because that is when she was most relaxed and more likely to stay in one place long enough to drink it.
And, no, I'm not fibbing about the 18m mark - the leap has been really noticeable to us. LOL Glad you feel a bit more encouraged.

We are currently having similar issues, hubby is very keen on DD being completely weaned by 2 (he has issues with extended BF)

Have you read the no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantly - great stuff in their to break the feeding to sleep assosiation. I have just bought the toddler one but haven't had time to read it properly yet. I found once I stopped feeding Ari to sleep she stayed asleep longer and woke less often. Having said that we have regressed a little recently as she has had some unsettled nights.

I also put her into a single bed, so I can lie down with her comfortably but also get up and go back and have my own space.

Good luck, hope you find a solution that works for you

Thanks Saram -- I am going to have a look at that. I have actually read a lot of it online already. The funny thing is that he doesn't (usually) feed to sleep during the day -- only night. Although today I just asked him how he would like to go to sleep for his nap and he pointed to our BF chair so I did because it's VERY VERY hot today so who can be bothered arguing?!

Last night, I fed him to sleep with a sippy bottle of cow's milk in his hand! Very cute he held on to it for ages even when falling asleep on the boob! But in the end, he slept from 730-430 with only a little wake and my husband was sleeping w him and settled him with a pat adn some water!

Let's hope for more of those!

Yes I think I will buy a bed -- twin or double. I took the sides off his cot yesterday and it just looks so unsafe -- the rail sits at the same height as the mattress and the whole things still seems high ...

Hi Nox. I was in the same boat until very recently... DS was waking every couple of hours though the night and I was BF him back to sleep. However, I came to the conclusion that he wasn't going to outgrow it himself and so I have been working hard to get him to a point where he can self settle without needing to be fed back to sleep all night.

This is what I did:
Step 1: I fed him to sleep initially, but when he woke I would pat and delay feeding. I wouldn't let him feed to sleep. When he attached I would move to an angle so that it was hard for him to stay on the boob. He would fall off and whinge and reattach, but after a few attempts he would give up and go to sleep. After a few days he got to a point where he would feed for a few seconds before rolling away and going back to sleep by himself.
Step 2: When he woke up, I refused to BF him back to sleep at all - I would offer patting and shushing and if he still needed something I would give him a bottle of rice milk (apparently sweeter like breastmilk). Much to my surprise, he took the bottle and went to sleep. He wasn't entirely happy about it and whinged a bit (no crying though), I spent up to an hour patting/shushing/offering bottle instead until he got back to sleep himself.

So far this has taken two weeks and we are now at a point where he doesn't expect a BF during the night. The past few nights he has not even woken for it - last night he slept from 9pm-5am, he stirred a couple of times and I was able to shush him back to sleep.

I think it is definitely a prioity to break the feed to sleep association, after that he should start sleeping for longer periods.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it can be