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ok.. u are in abit of a pickle.
First option - keep him - BUT he needs so majour work. As for his food and needing to have it right there right then sorta thing. Put him on a lead. Put the bowl/bone about 1-2 metres away from him. Use a chocker chain with the lead. Hold onto it and tell him to sit and stay. Give him a small treat as a reward when he does (holding ur hand out flat as its a good way to teach kids to feed dogs so they dont get there hand bitten off). You will have to be persistant and do this everytime u give him something. As for the tennis ball, i bet u got a majour fright. If he snaps at you dont smack him just yell at him in a deep loud voice and just say no. Then get that lead out again and tie him to a pole or something in the backyard. This will serve as a time out. Dont give him the ball back for a couple days. You need to be persistant with all these sorts of things and remember to reward him when he doesnt snap.
second option - get rid of him - you have to weigh up your options here. Ask yourself these questions... Is this dog worth having if its going to bite my family? Is it easier to get rid of him now rather than we you son is older and is even more attached? Is it worth the stress and worry everytime someone wants to go out the back??
If u do decide to get rid of him, give him to a family or friend, hopefully without kids. If u give him the the rspca while hes snapping, they will put him down anyway.
HTH
If I was in your position I would get professional help. There are a few companies that can help ypou out with behavoural issues and will give you tools you need to work on your dog.
If you're not experienced with dog behavioural issues going it alone could just exaserbate the problem.
Hopefully Christy will pop into this thread and give you some pointers :)
You have to be the boss. He needs to know that you and your partner (and the kids) are above him in the pecking order. You can't show fear. As he is still a pup, you can change things now to make this work for you.
Few simple things. Is he allowed on furniture? Height is one way that dominance is established. So, dogs shouldn't be at same height or higher. Give him a bed on the floor but don;t let him on couches or people beds.
When he is fed, make him sit and wait and only get the food when you tell him he can. We have two labs and both will sit (or drop) and wait until we say "Get it". They might drool whilst they are waiting but they don't start.
Dogs shouldn't be snapping at people. If this happens, stand tall and give a deep 'No'. (boys are better at this but you need to be able to too).
There are few ways to go with the possessiveness over bones. You can try to challenge it, but if it is only over bones i would kinda say that is his thing, and give him his own space when he has a bone. Make sure your little one is not near him and remove the bone again later. However, if it is becoming an issue then you might want to not give him bones at all, or at least til you feel more in control.
You say you can't continue going to obedience training, but you can still keep practisining the things that you have learnt. Teach to sit, drop, stay (for various times), teach walking on a lead. All these things will help him know what you want, so he will look to you for guidance.
I think everyone else's advise sounds wise. Just wondering if you have had him de-sexed? I've heard male dogs who aren't become more and more aggressive during their teenage years and that it only gets worse...
Also, maybe give your vet a call, they'll probably be able to give you some good advice. They might also be able to do some blood tests to make sure it's not a medical thing. I know hypothyroidism in animals makes them aggressive..
Goodluck! :D
Hi there, Hmmm. Honestly for any aggression issues you need to see a professional. Your dog is displaying a normal reaction (resource guarding - especially for a working breed) but it is an over-reaction. And you are very right to see big potential problems coming up. I actually and respectfully disagree with some of the advice given here as resource aggression won't be abated with getting the dog into trouble over it. You will have more success (and better safety) if you promote the dog to feeling that it doesn't need to defend its resources. I won't post any more advice here because you need to see someone good and in person to give you personalised advice.
Look up the delta society for people in your area. If you can afford to go to one of the vet behaviourists then do it, If you can't then look up a delta dog trainer and call them for some advice.
Good luck.
Is Puppy PreSchool an option? Local vets run classes and the RSPCA runs classes for ALL ages of dog. I think it would do him a world of good...a better first option than rehoming maybe.
I also agree on the desexing. It'd take a couple of week for him to calm down but usually makes a huge difference.
Like others have mentioned the benefits of getting someone to help you guys out here is INVALUABLE. these pups of ours are family and IMO deserve the time and input needed to help get them through these stages.
He is only 20 months and if he is anything like our retriever x is having one major adolescense! (oops spelling!). they are going through big changes and are far more determined to challenge the pack order. for us it was a really hard road up until she hit 24 months. and this was i strongly believe achieved only so early through getting professional advice.
a dog should not snap over food or objects. they shouldnt feel the need to protect it as they are not in that role of protector, you are ITMS. some of the smallest changes can make a big difference. for us this meant, not letting our dog on the furniture (ie our bed), she also is not allowed to be in the front yard (her breeding is mixed with maremma and they guard fence lines...(we had to go to a maremma expert for that one!) and she MUST eat after us, always. in all honesty our dog felt the stress of believing she was top dog and making these changes (they were hard at first) has made a world of difference, because like you, we were at a serious cross roads of whether we could keep her or not.
it is so worth it in the end. her and my DD have a beautiful friendship now and like you, DD loves waking up in the morning and seeing stella. hang in there! there is hope! and soon the crazy teen dog phase will pass i promise LOL!
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Have you found someone to go with?
All those things are great. I wonder if you work on the 'drop objects', it might help with his possessiveness over stuff.:
He still gets training from me all the time (at least once, sometimes twice a day). He will sit, stay, wait, leave food, drop objects (well, only sometimes!) and come etc.
We use 'give', if we want them to drop something. This works with balls or retrieval objects you are going to throw again. Also works if they have something in their mouth you don't know what it is. If it's something they are allowed to have, they get it back. Otherwise you take it off them.
Good way to work on 'give' is during retrieving, say give and they get a reward (food works good cos they have to give to get the food). You then throw the ball again. They learn that it's good to drop the ball cos they get reward- but also just because they give doesn't mean they have lost the item forever. They don't think 'give' is a bad word.
He sounds like a great dog, just needs some guidance on this issue before it gets out of hand.
I know if we get slack on exercising, or asking the dogs to sit, stay etc they start to get a bit more unruly.
Kate,
Basically we use 'drop' for the same thing.
We had a first birthday for my whole mother's group and the dads too on sunday and he was really really good. He was outside (of course!) but he didn't go silly really. I let him be silly once they left and we had a bit of a run around.
We have found a couple called 'underdog' who do dog training, however we actually have my parents over for 2 weeks and we don't want them to know anything at all about our little issue, so it is on hold for now. Once they leave in 2 weeks then we are going to arrange a first consult and then we will decide what to do next.
DH is right behind me and seems unconcerned by the cost, so that is good.
I can't hesitate to say that Krysalyss has given some excellant advice. There are a huge number of "trainers" or "behaviouralists" out there, unfortunately they don't all have the background or the study to help them. In Australia, there is only 1 form of accreditation and that is the Delta Society. So I would make sure I went through someone with that background. I have studied animal behaviour and specialised in dog behaviour, but for what you want, there is no way I'd give you advice here... I would have to come and work with you & your dog. It is something that does need work now.
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Glad to hear you are getting some help, it can make all the difference. It's hard because he's a member of your family but he needs to learn how he fits into it. Think of him as a toddler, that worked for us years ago with our Rotti who was a real handful until he was about 5 years old. I think we were the only family who had in puppy school for over a year :lol:. Good luck.
Embarassingly, i took one of my labs to puppy school for 3 and a half years:redface:. Well worth it in the end. Think we were the first to be put in 'time out' too. Just way too exciting for her. I would take a ball and throw it to her for half an hour before class to wear her out, but sometimes the class was just too much. Think she has a touch of ADD.:
Nah Kate, she's just a lab ;) My labrador acts so starved for attention, when she donates blood she wags her tail :rolleyes: she loves needles because it means someone is touching her.
I would get rid of the dog. Ok you love him, but I would feel awful if something happened to one of the kids because I kept it :(
A pet isn't a disposable item to 'get rid of' at the first hurdle. They require love, attention and understanding and if it turns out after effort that the animal really isn't the right fit then they need to be thoughtfully rehomed. Anyone who has euthanased a dog or a cat simply because it wasn't wanted will understand my offence to what you have said.:
I would get rid of the dog. Ok you love him, but I would feel awful if something happened to one of the kids because I kept it
I would call in a 'dog whisperer'!! Definitely consult with someone who's methods and goals resonate with yours. Say, if you are vehemently opposed to choker chains, don't hire someone who tells you to use one, keep looking.
I actually watched "The Dog Whisperer" at a friend's place the other day and was really quite impressed by the man's motivations and methods :) I only watched it once, and it's a completely non-violent way to communicate with dogs and to get them knowing their place in the family pack.
My sister adopted a dog that turned out to have some pit bull in it after being told it was a mastiff x lab (no way was it that, it probably had some boxer in it, but def no lab and no mastiff!). They loved the dog but he started to get a bit nippy. She'd been taking him to obedience training for months and months and couldn't get on top of him and does not have the internal resources to put the energy required to get this dog in line. She gave him up and an active, child-less couple has taken him on. In her case it wasn't a case of getting a dog and just deciding he wasn't right - the shelter mislead her (knowingly or otherwise) because he was most definitely not the breed she expected. Though, even if he HAD been a mastiff x lab, she'd have been in for a couple of years of work...she's really not a dog person, she needs a lap dog for her family! In hindsight, it's not the dog that's the problem for her, it's her thinking a dog should fit in and hope like hell it doesn't need stacks of training! Both parties are better off without each other in that case.
Good luck, he sounds redeemable :)
ummm woooo I never said KILL it. I said get RID of it... as in rehome or whatever.
Ok so that is YOUR opinion over an animal but to me the love of my children and the safety of myself and others around me is MORE important then a pet.
Lenny Good on you and DH for opting to get some outside help for you 4 legged boy ;)
We have a 8 year old lab x kelpie and he is very excitable at times.Our boy and DS are great friends but we will NEVER leave them alone together. DS pokes and prods our boy and at times he'll just lie there and other times he'll get up and walk away :)
You have been given some fantastic advice from some wonderful people in here. I'm keen to hear how he progresses once your parents have gone home ;)
mako - looking sassy! I haven't seen your new av! Thanks for the support.
Mayaness - Redeemable - I like that!! He is redeemable. I used to sort of complain that the shelter mislead us a bit - but really, we were naive. I'm glad your sis found a great home for her dog. It's good that the dog gets a happier life now.
krysalyss - :hug:
missymoo - this would be an absolute last resort. Absolutely LAST resort. We are a million miles from this point atm. I am actually looking foward to putting in some time, effort (and money :doh:) and then really enjoying our dog and our relationship.
Ok I know you are trying to be supportive, but like krys said, anyone who has ever had to euthanise a healthy animal who can be helped for convienience sake will be offended by your original statement. The problem is the commitment you make when you take an animal home as part of your family. The actual amount of rehoming that happens is quite small. Unless you give it to someone you know, the RSPCA and other "rehoming" agencies have a very hard time rehoming animals.:
Lenny he does sound redeemable :hug:
Lenny, I'm sure you'll get many, many years of love and enjoyment from your doggie boy. It is worth putting the effort in that you need to now.
I have taken in two dogs (JRs, so small) that were dumped and the first was very easy behaviourally-wise (although he was a complete nut until he turned 2 when suddenly all the training we'd been doing seemed to finally sink in). The second dog was a bit older and had some issues from being abused. She still is inclined to assert her personal space and gets funny over stealing food. She has received training, but with her background and age it's a lot harder. She is 200 times better than she was and quite trustworthy now. But there are some situations we know she won't be able to handle, and we make sure she isn't exposed to them (lots of people, finger food lying around, etc). She's also deaf, so gets 'surprised' easily.
My point is, if she can be trained to a position where it is only an occasional thing we need to remove her from then you can certainly get to where you want to be with your dog with professional help. I know our dog would have definitely been put to sleep if it had gone to the RSPCA and she is actually a very loving and easygoing pet - most of the time!
ETA - I added some photos to the gallery of doggie boy...
My Dog
How gorgeous Lenny! Love Georgia as well!
I never said to put it down. I am confused where you are getting that from?? We had a dog that snapped at a visitor child and we REHOMED it ourselves. Put an add in the local paper and a guy came from a farm and took Zeb to live with him.
Geez.
This is going to sound cruel, so I'm preparing myself for all the neg comments!!
We have a German Shephard who has just turned 2, and we had some trouble with him jumping and whatever when he was about 12-14 months old, and basically not listening to us. We called a trainer who is basically like that Dog Whisper guy XD And what he did was when he did something wrong, like jump, he would throw the chain at his rump and say "baarr" really loud and agressive like. Apparently it's meant to have the same affect as what their mother would have on them in the wild (a growl and a nip on the butt). He responded to it really well, and only needs correcting once when he does something wrong and never does it again. Our boys problem was more out of excitement though, and he really just needed to learn when it was and wasn't ok to get excited over something. So I'm not really sure how you would go being agressive towards him when he's being agressive towards an object iykwim. I would look in your paper and look for trainers who specialise in behavioural problems, I've always been a firm believer that you shouldn't touch or move a dogs food while they're eating it, (you wouldn't like it! ;)) and we were taught that from mum when we were little tackers! But the obession over the tennis ball is a little weird...
Good luck! Pets are great fun for kids I reckon, it would be nice if it was all sorted out and you could keep him
Teagz, I have no problem with that! I have found that during puppihood, it can help to be the mummy puppy sometimes :) It's natural consequence and they understand it. Choker chains just don't fall into that category for me and I can't stand them, personally. I used one a lot as a kid because I was conditioned to believe that's how you trained a dog. I just won't use one ever again.
MissyMoo - I know where you're coming from. Sometimes it's not worth persisting with a dog that you just can't trust - for whatever reason, be it you don't have the time to put into correcting the tendency, or the resources, whatever - because the cost is too high for that situation. Just like with horses, though, I'm a big believer in word-of-mouth and will never get a horse or dog through the papers or classifieds. Every time I get an email asking for a dog to be rehomed, the dog finds a home within a short time, or when one is advertised in the vet clinic. Our little dog was an email! Our big dog was from the shelter - very easy to find homes for 9 week old pups, though.
Anyway, whilst I can see the point the others were making, I think they were using MissyMoo's post as a platform for a view which is quite valid and bears thinking about, more than attacking MM's stance on the matter. I hope I'm right!
Mayaness and MM: My offence is to do with the way the post was worded it. To say 'get rid of' something is to basically bring it down to the same value as rubbish. If the post had been worded "perhaps you should consider rehoming" then I would have had no offence to it. Note I did not think that MM suggested killing it. Being flippant about rehoming to me is also offensive. Rehoming is not a simple process. To the animal it is very stressful to cope with the change that it brings. Additionally only a very small minority of animals are rehomed compared to the amount looking for homes. For cats the percentage is a lot smaller than dogs.
Many people consider it their right to own a pet therefore get one before thinking about what is required. An animal isn't an inanimate object and possesses rights of its own. To own a dog is a responsibility that more often than not requires some training. Out of the hundreds of dogs I have seen come into the shelter I worked at, approximately five had valid reasons. My own dog came from that pound. He had passed through four families before he got to me for no reason at all (including behavioural). Potential aggression can be a valid reason for rehoming. But for the respect of the animal, this is a decision that should be made with thought and kindness, not as if the pet is an inanimate object without feeling.
oh, ok, that's how you read it :)
The likes of you and me (Krysalyss) will always think this way and will not give up on an animal without a fight. For those who would have to put in training and lose even more love for the dog because of the effort required, moving it on is the best option.
My little dog is a horrible barker, and I'm figuring this is the reason she was given up. She has so many redeeming features that it's not going to be the reason we give her up, and when we live on a farm she'll just come into her own :) Meanwhile, DP comes from a family steeped in dog history, and whilst I don't, I somehow got the bug to make up for my parents' and sister's cluelessness;)
It's like with horses. You can't keep a horse that you can't ride for fear of it being an @rsehole just because you feel obligated to keep it forever. If you're not having fun with your horse, move it on or if it's that dangerous, call in the knackers - for everyone's sake. It's a tough stance, but one that even the RSPCA would make and Monty Roberts espouses, so I'm comfy with it.
It's about degrees of suitability, IMO. You don't hold onto a horrible boyfriend just because he makes great scrambled eggs, KWIM?
So, I agree with MM's perspective, I just felt it warranted more explanation here than the brief post that was initially offered.
Just typed a bit post and lost it.
I just want to clarify a few things in why Krys & I are pretty straight about this. Both of us are educated and have studied animal behaviour, both of us have worked in places where we have been forced to put animals down for owner's convienience due to behavioural issues. I have held dogs while they have died for simple, fixable reasons. This makes us both passionate about it.
The other thing with giving opinions on animal behaviour that upsets me I guess is a lot of the stuff in Australia is outdated or blatently wrong. Some training organisations aren't built on any understanding of dog behaviour. Some use very out of date information. A lot of the information given in this thread is out of date and inappropriate. Its like suggesting things like breastfeeding hurts dental development.... just wrong.
BUT think about it... would you let a baby trainer who has no formal qualifications, and no children help you with your baby? Than you need to think about dog trainers before hiring one. There is only 1 accreditation system in Australia at the moment and that is the Delta Society Canine accreditation and those would be the trainers with the most up to date techniques and information.
Sorry I didn't go into more depth. I was in no way treating the animal like it had no feelings. I am a dog lover! Sometimes I post whatever I am thinking quickly, it's often hard to have 5 minutes to write an explanation when you have a whingy 6 month old :rolleyes:
Of course you must always consider what you are capable of doing. If you can safely train the dog, and have the time and resources to do that then that would be the BEST option.
However when we had to rehome Zeb, it was the ONLY option. He growled at a 3 year old through the door for no reason, his hair stood on end. He snapped through the fly screen. This girl had never been to our house before so it wasn't like he knew her. He was our pet for 8 years, I had grown up with him, but for my parents, having a dog who showed that side to him when theres 6, 7, and 8 year old children around wasn't an option. For them it was a risk to big to take. The ad went in the paper, and there was many many calls for a pure bread german shephard with papers. We were open about what had happened and VERY picky about where it went and when mum chose the man to take him she was happy he was going to be happy there. He called back a couple of months later and told her how he had settled in very well and was loving the open spaces.
I was bitten by a dog when I was 5 on the face, it wasn't my dog but a friends dog. Their response was "oh yes he has done it a few times". Lucky for me it was a graze and didn't go right through my cheek but it was enough for me to say that if I ever had my OWN dog who showed those signs then it would be given away or put down if it came to that. I personally wont have a potentially agressive dog around my own kids.
For those reasons I am very weary because it is a big risk to take. I honestly did not mean to offend anyone.
Lenny...you live near me I think....we have just enroled Ollie with PawBehaviour to do a course....the lady is delta trained and the first night you go withut the dog to discuss issues and what specific things you want to address etc and then with puppy after that.......all our contact so far has been very positive...classes are a max of 6 dogs etc so seems quite a good one.....you can google and the website should come up for you....the classes are in Carrum on a Weds night.
Thanks for clarifying MM. :) I appreciate it and your opinion.
Thanks for that recommendation Mel. We are just by Woodlands school.
I did google Delta but I only looked at the behaviourists - not the accredited instructors. That's excellent. I will call them and see what they think or can advise.
You might just see me one day soon walking a funny looking black mutt - who behaves like an angel!!
Well Lenny, you've inspired me! (not to mention all the great advice here). I've tried a Delta trained trainer nearby and she is going to come and spend some time with our little troublemaker to see if she can 'fix' things!
Since our dog is only small we haven't really bothered beyond what we've done ourselves. I got DP to agree to it if it means we don't have to lock her away when we're worried about a situation. So fingers crossed to the both of our doggies, Lenny!
That's great Jennifer. Not having to lock the dog away 'just in case' will be great.
No bones (or tennis balls) while my parents are here, so that we don't have to worry about potential problems and then some intensive doggy whispering. It's going to be good!
I was such a mess when I posted originally, i was worried and emotional. Now I'm really positive and looking forward to some hard work with big rewards. THANK YOU ALL!!