Feeding at night waking = rewarding for waking = more night waking?

I don't know that I 100% agree with that theory BUT I've seen it been said (typed...) on here a few times the past week or two and wondered what others think.

When Jazz wakes at night I feed her. I have tried 'ignoring' on the rare occassion just to see if she will go back to sleep and 99.99% of the time she'll progress to a cry, and then a distressed cry, thrash around the bed, and get pretty worked up about it. So i don't let her cry at night as settling her after she's worked up is harder than just feeding her while she's half asleep.

Our nights aren't as bad as they could be though, I do have to say. Most nights she'sok with just having a feed and going back to bed, she doesn't usually want to actually be UP.

Doesn't make it easier to be woken about 4 times a night to feed...

If I don't feed her then yes she wants to be up. And I know that she doesn't need to feed 3 hourly overnight anymore... heck she doesn't really feed that often during the day!

Anyway, just wondering how much validity do you think the "'reward' feeding = more waking" has?

Do you think her night waking is a 'habit'? Is feeding every time she wakes going to be problematic? I'm towards the end of tolerance on this, its really effecting me day-to-day and yes its all part of the territory but I need a good night sleep! Just one! How would I even break a habit like that without letting her cry? Should I start getting her up at night (OMG don't say that please LOL) instead of feeding? Or is that just going to create more bad habits.

MR... I know you'll have some good advice (you always do!!!!!) or even just some reassurance that its not going to turn into me bfing a 10yo back to sleep (hey, in my sleep deprived state my SIL is getting to me LOL)... ???



(... ETA ... no Shel won't do a night feed, so thats not an option. Suggesting I get out on my own and having time to myself isn't an option either. Its just not going to happen. I'm not moving her to her own room. I'm not switching her to formula or topping her up with formula. I'm not letting her cry it out. Sorry if they were your suggestions...)

Leash i am NOT sleep deprived and i had weaned DD by the time she was Jazz's age, so i write from a Gentle Parenting POV, not a BTDT POV....

Reward is a very emotive word. Is food a reward? Is a hug a reward? Is confirmation that mummy is there and loves her a reward? If it is and you want to withdraw such a reward, how do you do it? What are you rewarding FOR and why is she seeking it as such?

Babies wake to feed when they have a need to. I would say she definitely needs to feed overnight still (and some babies do so well into the 2nd year) because she DOES wake to feed. If she didn't need to she wouldn't. There is a massive difference between a baby not waking because it's not hungry and a baby not expressing hunger because it knows no-one will satsify its needs.

I know you're exhausted but i cannot stress how good a sign it is that Jaz tuns to you when she NEEDS you. I can remember weaning DD, i gave her her last feed when she was 7months to the day. She seemed so big and strong compared to the newborn she had been, and because she was the biggest kid I'D ever had, she seemed an old and sophisticated creature. Now i look back on the fact that i had to wean my little little baby. Because really, what is 7 months? Even against 3 years, which we are nearly at, it is NOTHING. She's still very much a baby, you don't need to second-guess you're parenting or your feelings. IMO in feeding Jaz when she asks, night or day, to be held close and fed, you are nurturing as you always have, not rewarding or spoiling her.

Recently DD has become suddenly incredibly shy (and i mean sitting at her grandparents house with her eyes tightly shut WHILE eating a snack they'd given her, because she was too shy to look at them - she clings so tightly to me that i i let go of her all 16kg of her stays just where she is, clinging to me like a monkey on a treetrunk!). At first i was baffled that my brave, confident little girl was suddenly so scared of meeting new people or seeing failir people that she'll say "want to stay here mummy" when i offer her an exciting outing. I have ACTUALLY had to start taking the ring sling out because my fully weaned, fully toilet trained DD sometimes needs to be wrapped in the sling and cradled like a babe and be able to bury her face in her mothers chest and hide from everything. Because even at nearly 3 she's just a baby really.

Now, none of this helps you get more sleep! Do you co-sleep? Could you? I used to feed DD in bed - i basically flopped a boob in her direction an she latched on herself and we both went back to sleep. It was FAR more restful than sitting up or any of that. :redface: i could feed her *almost* lying on my back though, because my boob flopped nicely into my armpit! I wish i had Shell's email addy though, because i have some things to say re: the lack of night feeding assistance, and one of them is that i LEFT XP for that sort of behaviour! :[

Bx

LOL yeah we co-sleep. I does make it easier (well, until last week when she got her first two teeth and has been knawing at my boob OUCH!).

You're right... food/feeding is a right not a reward. Do babies really still need to feed that often? I guess they do if she is still feeding overnight... but why do some babies sleep through GARGH! It seems so unfair lol!

Do you know ANY adults who eat a massive amount and yet seem to burn it off through normal activities and never gain much weight? Or some who actually never seem to be eating at all but are rather padded? Babies, like people, are so indvidual in their calorific and nutritional needs.

But it's totally ok to trust her like she trusts you hun, it's totally ok to relax and trust that she will only feed when she needs to. Humans are manipulative and children absolutely learn to manipulate situations, but not in the middle of the night, not at 7 months and not over the issue of food. I definitely find it easier to trust DD in meeting the stated needs than trying to guess and second-guess every request. You're a really good mumma, and Jaz is a very lucky girl, and maybe you need to get a t-shirt to remind you of that when you're squinting with exhaustion in the mirror in the morning!

Bx

Had second thoughts about this post...


ETA: although my experience is very similar to Marydean's below. It wasn't until DS was 10 months and waking randomly up to 10 times a night and NOT wanting to feed that I started resettling instead of feeding and it worked for us after a few nights. He has slept through every night since. I doubt he was ready at 7 months though. Wasn't sure that's what you wanted to hear!

Leasha, Bella is still having a feed between 1 and 2am every single night. I tried resettling her but she knows what she wants. Now I just hear her start to stir and give her the feed straight away. She is always still pretty much asleep when she has the feed and is settled until about 5 - 6am.
I just think it's better to give it to her rather than let her get all upset cause as you said, it takes more time to resettle them after a screaming match.
I don't reckon you are setting her up with any bad habits at all, it's just that some babies sleep through early and some don't. With my other 3 kids, 2 of them were sleeping through the night by about 5 months and the other was still getting up during the night at age 1.
Not sure if any of this helps, but just let you know that you aren't alone matey.

Leasha, Jazz is still little. There is plenty of time later on when she's bigger, eating more solids during the day, and exploring more of the world, to decide to do something about night feeds.

My DD2 was nearly 10 months old, I was horrendously sleep deprived and facing a stint as a single mummy (ie no backup plan) before I started to meddle with the night feeds - even so DD would have 1 around 11 (as I was heading to bed) and I'd resettle if she got up until about 5, if she woke after that I'd give her a feed and back into bed. This coincided with deliberately feeding her more during the day (both more energy-dense solids and 1-2 extra BFeeds) to ensure she was getting enough calories as her weight had plateaued out for too long. This worked for us.

I have heard and been told this many times too but to be honest I think some babies sleep through and others don't.
I was speaking to a mum the other day who is of the "it's normal for babies to cry" and "babies don't need to feed overnight" school and her baby was waking every 15 mins at one point (baby is about 10 mnths old) and she let her baby cry and would only give her baby water at night.
I have read that through touch it helps babies brain synapses make more connections (hope that make sense) so I was/am always hesitant to think that if a baby is waking that you should let it cry (which I know you don't want to I am just saying)
For me personally my DS has never been a great sleeper, at one point waking every 30 mins or so (but he was teething at the time) at around Jazz's age DS would also feed every 2/3 hrs 24/7. By 6 mnths DS and I had moved to a king single to get some decent sleep and he needed me to get him to sleep through the day as well. At 10 mnths I was starting to become desperate as I was going back to work 3days a week when DS would be 11 mnths and Dp would be looking after DS and he doesn't have the patience to get him to sleep in the same way I did, also DS had never slept in the cot before. So at 10 mnths we went to sleep school. For me it was a good experience in saying that I could not have done it when he was younger. Now he is 12 mnths, he has 2 day sleeps and generally goes to bed between 7pm and 8pm, will wake once or twice (generally 11pm and 5 am) and is awake at 6.30 am. There are nights (like this last week as he is teething again) where he is waking 3/4 times a night again. When we got back from the sleep school I was sleeping in the same room for a week or so and when DS woke at 5am he didn't want to go back to sleep cause he could see me so I had to go back to sleeping in a different room which was very, very difficult for me.
So while he is sleeping better I would not have done this if I wasn't going back to work. Dp still doesn't help at night either. I also find that I am more tired now too cause I am not sleeping through the day and I am not co-sleeping anymore so my sleep is more disturbed.
I would find that the more I tried to fight his lack of sleeping the more frustrated I was and the harder it was to deal with but in those times when I was able to repeat many times to myself "he will be sleeping when he goes to school, I won't be bf him when he is at school" that even in that sleep deprived state I was able to get through the day easier.
So the bottom line is do what works for you, if that is feeding when she wakes then do it, no matter what you do you will have people telling you you should be doing it differently.
Hope that makes sense and helps a little.

I could have written your post, I have been in the exact same situation.

We co-sleep, fed him every time he woke as otherwise he would work himself up and wake up. DS woke every hour from 3-8 months and then about 6 times a night until about 16 months. I also wasn't willing to let him cry or switch to formula etc.

I know for us it was completely habit, he was always fed to sleep and didn't know how to self settle at all. He wouldn't sleep for a longer stint until he realised that he could actually get to sleep without feeding.

Eventually I admitted that he wasn't going to grow out of it and with another bub on the way I had to do something. I guess in the end it was some sort of 'contolled comforting', I refused to feed him at night and gave him lots of cuddles/singing/hugging instead. As much as I wanted to avoid any cry-it-out techniques, it wasn't that bad. However, DS was 16 months and even though he wasn't happy about it he was able to understand 'no yummies', whereas Jazz is still such a little bubba and just wouldn't know why you weren't giving her what she needs.

Basically I have no advice, I just wanted to let you know that there are others out there that have been/are still in the same situation. It will get better.

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Do you know ANY adults who eat a massive amount and yet seem to burn it off through normal activities and never gain much weight?

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This is my H and now it seems to be my son. I don't really have any advice for you Leash because we are officially failing at sleep :lol: My son STILL wakes approx every 3 hours to feed overnight. Sometimes it's after 2 hours sometimes after 4. I can still count on my fingers the number of times he has slept for 5 hours or more. Sorry it's not a good news story but I wanted to let you know you are not alone.

I read the no-cry sleep solution and based on that we introduced a comfort blanket, some routine to his day and have moved our son out of our room. He slept better in his cot than our bed by about Jazz's age though so that is what works for us- I'm still a big believer in co-sleeping if you can and it works for you. Now I have a little further to walk (across the hall through 2 wide open doors) to feed him!

He is just like Jazz though... forget trying to not feed him- it's more work! I am planning on introducing a sippy cup into his cot during the day when he can see it and then trying to encourage him to drink from that overnight to quench his thirst. The plan being that eventually he may be able to find it in the dark, have a drink and go back to sleep all without waking me up.

Leash she is 7 months old. Her little tummy NEED your booby milk reguarly, just because it's dark doesn't mean it changes that fact ;)
You can't expect a good nights sleep yet. They are a rare thing to come by and not many people have babies that sleep right through.

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not many people have babies that sleep right through.

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That is a good point. SOME babies sleep through very early on- but the majority are not able to sleep through till a lot older. That's just what being a baby is all about.

hun, i'm almost 29 and rarely sleep right through the night even now! i wake up, i have a drink, i snuggle up to DH for a cuddle (if he's home - the body pillow if he's not!) - i think at 7 months, Jazz just needs to know you're there, have a drink (if she breathes through her mouth like i do, she's possibly dry and uncomfy!) and then go back to sleep knowing she's safe!

:) thanks everyone. LOL you know just what to say! I feel good when I know what i'm doing is making her feel safe and secure and loved.

Leasha, I night feed DS until he was 9months old or thereabouts, i stopped becasue he began waking 6-7 times a night and i was back at andjust couldn't function on that much sleep, but until then i was happy to night feed, in the end i had to stop cosleeping as well because i felt like it was too much temptation for DS to wake and smell me but not have me IYKWIM. We had about a week of rough nights while i changed the routine now he pretty much sleeps through from 9pm till 6am maybe waking once for a quick re wrap and dummy. i was determined just like you sound, no formula, no crying it out no matter how many people told me to, it just wasn't right for me/us.
You'll know when you're both ready to stop night feeding and then you'll feel better making the decision, until then just keep doing the great job that it sounds like you're doing.xxx

I don't think a little baby is able to be that manipulative that they can think "oh im gonna wake up more cos I know mums a softie and I can work her". I think it's horrible that people think that about babies. I think it's sad that some babies "learn" to sleep through the night because they have learnt that at such a young age they have to 'go it alone" (I know that some babies will sleep through even though their parents are responsive though, they are lucky!)

My son wakes about 3 times a night now- I don't actually know how many times because I am so sleepy when I respond to him. It just sort of feels like when you get up to go to the toilet at night, you don't know how many times you did that and you usually go back to sleep ok afterwards (and I'm probably up less now to respond to him than I was going to pee when I was 8 months pregnant LOL!! :lol:)

I think you are doing the right thing. When DS wakes up at night and I feed him, he goes straight back to sleep, so I think he just needs a bit of food/drink/comfort. When it's the morning he won't go back to sleep.

My only advice is to try and focus on what you can do to help YOU sleep better. That's easier to control than change a baby. I turn the clock to the wall- it really really helps as I don't get stressed thinking about the sleep I'm missing. When he wakes up I try to pee/have a drink before I feed him, if I need to do that, that way when the happy breastfeeding hormones make me sleepy I can drift off. I go to bed no later than 9:30pm so I can get more sleep. I try not to watch TV but do something relaxing and drink camomile tea before bed. Usually if I am sleeping ok the night waking is not too bad as I only actually need to be awake about 10 mins or so.

What time does Jaz wake up? Another that helps isthat DS has been waking at 5:30am :doh: during the week, once I change him and stuff DP gets up with him and plays with him for an hour so I can get that little bit of solo sleep. She would have to get up around 7 for work anyway so she just gets up earlier and makes coffee etc and starts getting ready with him around.

Just adding something else...my GP said to me that babies, under one year SHOULDN'T sleep through the night as they need to feed.

That made me much more relaxed about night feeding!!

Leash in our Mum's group there are I think 7 babies... of those I think 2 still wake at night all the time, and a couple do it on and off. I really believe that some babies just are more wakeful than others. I don't think as mums we are doing things so differently. It's just temperament. Funnily enough the one that wakes up more than 3 times a night always seems to be the happiest most chilled out baby there!
You're doing a great job.... :hug:

Don't believe that line of thought for a second! It depends on the baby. I am a FOD mum, and so they got fed at night. Lyta, Sam and Haz all slept through since 3m. Course, then Sam got to 3yo and only slept 4 hours out of every 24 for something like a year and a half, which was when sleep deprivation *really* kicked in. Compared to that, waking up for a top up feed seems easy, lol. Ask me again in a few months though, haha!

A neat trick I developed though - turn the clock around. Don't look at the time. If you can't see it then you dont know how much (or how little) sleep you have had. I don't feel as tired when I don't know the amount of sleep I haven't had! Napping during the day while baby is also isn't a crime. ;) I have some neat tricks for getting two kids to have their afternoon nap at the same time too!

It's funny a few of you mention not looking at the clock overnight. We didn't have a clock in the bedroom for the first few months and I found the nights long and disorientating. Since I bought a clock radio I've been so much happier at night as I can quickly see the time and reassure myself I have had an hour sleep or hopefully even 4 hours rather than the 5 minutes it often feels like.

Hugs Leash, I have no answers, Riley was waking for a feed every 2 hours up until he was 12 months old!

Thanks everyone.

Ren I am like you, I need that clock otherwise I am really disorientated. even when I realise its not even midnight I like to know what time it is. It also helps me not get so frustrated and cranky if I know i've been asleep for 3 hours, even when it only feels like 5 minutes like you said!

Leash, to make you feel better, I honestly think the way you are responding to her now will make her a better sleeper/settler as she moves into toddlerhood. My baby slept very well, and I got the shock of my life when at 16 mths she started waking several hours a night and wanted bby! We fitted in with her demands and she is a very happy sleeper now, confident in her own room.

I have been thinking about this too since madam has decided that mummy has been getting altogether too much sleep!
I wonder if a 7 month old is capable of understanding the concept of reward.... I think it's more like "I'm awake, I need mummy so I can go back to sleep". And if you think about the flip side, if feeding her is a reward for waking up, is not feeding her a punishment? Can a 7 month old understand the concept of punishment? I think most of us find that in the middle of the night we just have to do what works and preferably what works the quickest so everyone can get back to sleep. I know I tried for an hour last night to get her back to sleep every which way and in the end I had to put her on the BB.... and she fell asleep again... for a while!

I think as long as it is working for you, then do it! I used to feed back to sleep because even when DD was waking frequently, I could be back in bed within 10 minutes. That was until it stopped working! We started having sleep issues and it would often take 45mins to an hour to resettle her - even a feed wouldn't do it! And this woud be a minimum of 2x a night. So we had to change our settling habits, and how we put her to bed to begin with and now she is sleeping 7pm-4.30ish in her own cot, then when she wakes I bring her into bed with us for a feed and if we're lucky another hour or 2. DH never used to do the nighttime wakings, but he finally realised how bad it was for me (the sleep deprivation, plus sleep issues during the day left me in a teary mess and I would phone him in tears most days plus I think i told him i was thinknig of leaving because i barely had the energy to be a mum let alone worry about our relationship) and has started helping out - we made the rule that no feed before 2am so he will go in and pat back to sleep which takes 5-10mins and only happens maybe once a night now. We had to put in the rule because she would have a quick comfort suck (it was never a real feed) and then wake within the hour, or would sit there on my boob, pulling on and off for an hour and not settling. Not only did his helping out more mean I was less sleep deprived, it also put our relationship back on track thankfully. You have to do whatever works for you, and if its not broken don't fix it (I think thats the saying!).
But don't let anyone make you feel bad for doing it the way you are doing it - I swear its other people's comments about "you shouldn't do that, you have to do it this way" that made our sleeping issues 10x more stressful for me and DD.

hi leash: wondered where you had got too!! i came here looking for answers to your question! im up feedinf dd three/four sometimes five times a night!! its driving me crazy! and was thinking about ways of solving what i thought of as a problem, but reading what people have said here i guess its just one of those things and she still needs to be feeding that often.
hope , for both of us, it passes quickly as i know im starting to look a feel like the walking dead!!! big hugs