What to do about childcare centre???

My DD 3 has been attending an ABC childcare centre since December last year. It took her 2 months to settle in and stop crying whenever we dropped her off but finally she seems happy there.

Back during mid Feb, DD said that the kids at school hit her. Both hubby and I went down to the centre individually and brought it to the attention of the classroom teachers as well as the director who all swore black and blue that it wasn't a problem within the class and that many children make this type of stuff up.

We had no further problems until last week when DD came home with a fat split lip. Originally the class room teacher said that another child had knocked my daughter over and she had split her lip but when we asked for a copy of the incident report the director claimed that my daughter fell over by herself and somehow cut her lip. It wasn't a serious accident but it was bad enough that she couldn't eat properly for several days as food and drink stung the cut on her lip.

Yesterday DD came home with a bite mark on her upper arm. You can clearly see that her arm in bruised underneath and the bite mark is quite deep. The classroom teacher said that my daughter in no way provoked the attack and that another child just came up and bit her for no reason while she was playing outside. My husband went down to the childcare centre last night to find out what exactly happened and what punishment the other child had received and if his parents were notified but received a text book "We're working with the other child to acheive the best outcome for all involved".

Hubby & I are now unsure whether we should remove our daughter from this childcare centre. Are we over reacting by doing this?

I know accidents happen, but the thought of my daughter being hurt/injured and crying at this childcare centre breaks my heart.

What would you do?

How awful for you!
Yes these things happen when dealing with kids but firstly I would want to know why you weren't notified at the time instead of finding out when picking up your DD.
Secondly they seem to be denying an awful lot. Your DD needs to know that if she has a genuine problem that someone will believe and listen to her, not play it down for their own sakes.
Honestly I can't tell you what to do, but it would make me very nervous. I guess it depends partly on your situation but we removed our DS from CC for lesser reasons than this.
Big hugs

biting is quite common at day care, so i wouldnt worry about that (even though it isnt nice it does happen). if it continues to happen, you could then ask as to what steps they are taking with the other child (if it is the same child doing it over and over again).

as for the incident, i find it a little wierd that you were told something different to what was on the incident report. it leads me to believe that no one actually SAW it happen just put two and two together to figure out what most likely happened. if it were me i wouldnt be very happy about that, but i wouldnt go in guns ablazing cause you only put the staff off when you react in that sort of way. if it were me, i would go and ask for clarification again, question the director as to why you got two different stories, probably leave it at that and then if similar occurances keep happening i would think about changing centres.

as for them not believing that your child felt picked on and being hit.. well that isnt really acceptable. she should have been more accomodating to you and your childs feelings. in truth, there isnt much they can do, exept talk to the group as a whole reinforcing acceptable and explaining unacceptable behaviours. they should have believed you and taken you seriously.

I think if it was one isolated incident then I wouldn't worry to much, but there seems to be a pattern developing here. I think you should trust your instincts.

Thanks for the replies. I'm still in 2 minds as to what to do. If we pull DD out of this centre then we lose our childcare that I rely on for a bit of "me" time before DS is born in July. Childcare is hard to come by in our area, so I want to be certain that we're making the right decision. I don't want my DD hurt in anyway but I don't want to over react either, if that makes sense. It's really the only opportunity my DD has to socialise with other kids.

Biting and hitting does happen when you put a lot of children together in a group. If the children are over- or under-stimulated, it's likely to happen a bit more. Some centres in my experience, are really not good at avoiding this situation - look at how they display their parent info and policies - there's very often "stuff" all over the walls, completely overstimulating, but then the playspaces provided are very often understimulating, as a result of the time constraints placed on staff who have to cover their backsides by doing heaps of paperwork, ergo not having time to provide and maintain quality play experiences.
Punishment is most definitely not the solution for biting, but neither is denial. The problem won;t be going away unless they address it. If you want some massive action, take photos of injuries, and ask for documentation of the follow-up action, or demand that the next level of management - most likely Regional Manager - become involved (they hate this)

Good luck - you pay a lot of $$$ for your childcare, so make sure you make the most out of it!

I would be going with instinct. If they didn't alert you to what happened, then its' possible she was getting hit at the beginning and no one knew or bothered to say.
Can you find an alternate daycare and book her in? Are there any besides ABC in your area? I just haven't heard alot of positive from ABC (sorry to generalise, I haven't heard positive from my sister whose kids went there, or from my friend who worked there and quit because it wasnt' very well run. )
If you're easy on what day/days she goes in, it shouldn't be hard to get in to another centre. If you take what they have avail they usually have a spot.
good luck and hope things work out xo

Unfortunately we're not able to get alternate childcare in our area and the waiting lists are approx 6 months wait. There were many ABC centres near us that closed down at the end of last year so all the other centres filled up pretty quickly and now have waiting lists. We only managed to get into the centre we are in because we had special circumstances and were able to jump the waiting list if we took what days were available at the time. I think we're going to give it another 2 weeks and call in more often as they have an open door policy for parents so you can go and watch the class without the kids knowing your there.

what is the age group of the room your DD is in (sorry if you mentioned already I didnt see it)

Biting is a lot different if its a 3year old than say an 18 month old. Younger kids then to do it more out of frustration in not being able toe xpress themselves, where as old children its a lot more premeditated.

In both cases they should notify you (and to whomever said they should notify you immediately - I havent found its my experience thats thats normal unless its bad enough that they want you to collect your child, or want permission to give them pain relief) via the accident book that they're required to maintain.

The child who did the biting/hitting's parents should also be informed as they are required to sign the incnident/accident report also.
DS was something of a biter from about 15-18 months, and it was horrible. I dreaded picking him up from creche becuase thered be an accident report at least 50% of the time.

It's not acceptable at all that the director and the staff member gave you conflicting reports on how the split lip came about, and for that one I would have expected a phone call - I know I've had them before when DS bit his lip at creche once.

I'd definitely go in unannounced a couple of times to see whats happening, but also ask to see their policy on behaviour management, they should have it available and have to let you look at it.

From our experience I can tell you the staff really were helping us to work through it and sort out strategies to manage DS' behaviour, and they provided us with a lot of relaly helpful resources - it may be that the staff memeber didnt express themslevs adequately, or was worried about privacy issues or something like that

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Biting and hitting does happen when you put a lot of children together in a group. If the children are over- or under-stimulated, it's likely to happen a bit more. Some centres in my experience, are really not good at avoiding this situation - look at how they display their parent info and policies - there's very often "stuff" all over the walls, completely overstimulating, but then the playspaces provided are very often understimulating, as a result of the time constraints placed on staff who have to cover their backsides by doing heaps of paperwork, ergo not having time to provide and maintain quality play experiences.
Punishment is most definitely not the solution for biting, but neither is denial. The problem won;t be going away unless they address it. If you want some massive action, take photos of injuries, and ask for documentation of the follow-up action, or demand that the next level of management - most likely Regional Manager - become involved (they hate this)

Good luck - you pay a lot of $$$ for your childcare, so make sure you make the most out of it!

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Unfortunately alot of that 'stuff' all over the walls, polices, parent info, etc is up there because it's all part of the rules - it has to be up there to demonstrate a whole pile of things and tick a pile of the regulation boxes made by various departments and governing bodies.
Whether anyone ever reads it - well, no one seems to really care! Ahh the red tape!


Biting is awful, no child care worker would deny how terrible it is to have to tell a parent their child has been bitten, and telling the parent their child is a biter is awful too.
Unfortunately there is little that can be done to stop a biter, it is something that they must grow out of in time, being given time out does not do alot to deter the bahaviour.
And while it can be said that sometimes supervision can be an issue with children biting, other times it does not matter how well you supervise, all it takes is a split second for the biting to occur. Some biters are very cunning and wait till they can see you are otherwise occupied and then the biting occurs.
You are not allowed to stop a child from attending because they are a biter, that would be considered discrimination.

It is horrible, I hate it and it makes me feel ill to have it happen in my care, but it does, that's the honest truth.

Childcare workers are people with feelings too - they have a huge responsibiliy in the care of the most treasured things in your lives. Until the general population and government recognises this, things will not change alot. Take for example the fact that the average wage of someone responsible for the care (and life really) of a group of children is less than a person who cleans toilets for a living. What message is that sending out????

My DD is in a class of 3 & 4 yr olds, I think there is 12 in the class with 2 teachers. We have a copy of the incident report but the other parents haven't signed it & due to privacy laws the centre isn't allowed to tell us who they are or identify the other child involved. We can only find out by DD pointing him out. The only thing we know about the other child is that he is male and is a repeat offender who has done this many times before.

I don't think it's discrimination to disallow a child who bites regularly to attend a centre or ask them to leave. I think the safety & welfare of ALL the other children should come before the needs of one who is causing injury to others for no reason. Childcare is expensive so I think I have a right to expect that in paying someone to care for my child that she is safe and well looked after. Otherwise I'm wasting my money and putting my daughter at risk at the same time.

I'm rather concerned about the attitude of the staff at your child care centre and I hope you find a resolution soon.

I have to comment in response to this:

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Childcare is expensive so I think I have a right to expect that in paying someone to care for my child that she is safe and well looked after. Otherwise I'm wasting my money and putting my daughter at risk at the same time.

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With all due respect, you are putting your child into a group care situation. If you want her to be completely safe from other children you would need to pay for one on one care such as a nanny. Child care workers work with little pay, high work levels and poor adult to child ratios. They can only do so much.

Also very few ccc will ask for a child to be removed from the centre as they are all businesses out to make money which means they need the kids(and ABC esp need the money)

all you can do is talk to your dd that when this child comes near her to move away or to say very loudly STOP! that will get carers attention so they can diffuse the situation.

it will take time for you and your dd to adjust to how things happen in a cc setting. but talk to the director again but dont demand anything just talk about the issue

you can't punish a child in child care, how would you like it if someone was punishing your children???
i understand why you are upset at the situation but look at it from the flip side, if they are allowed to punish that behaviour at day care, are they allowed to punish your child for snatching a toy from someone or throwing a tantrum????
as for the other stuff, my child hasn't had any incidents at day care so i cant comment on that. but i would be mortified if i found out my child was getting delibeartely beaten up.
sorry if my reply seems nasty, it isnt meant to be...

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Unfortunately alot of that 'stuff' all over the walls, polices, parent info, etc is up there because it's all part of the rules - it has to be up there to demonstrate a whole pile of things and tick a pile of the regulation boxes made by various departments and governing bodies.
Whether anyone ever reads it - well, no one seems to really care! Ahh the red tape!

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Actually, that's not correct. They have to have policies, yes. They have to have parent info, yes. To cover the walls with pages and pages of brightly coloured paper and words, as many ABCs do, well, that's actually not in the Regs of any state.

ANother really big issue that ABC has is that they provide terrible working conditions for their staff. Their "one procedure fits all" approach means reams and reams of paperwork that they force upon the staff - no part of the Regs, just covering their own backsides. The pay, well, that's been covered, and it's pretty dismal. Resources are pretty scant, brokn toys are often not replaced, art stuff is rationed. It's not a nice way to work, and as a result, they can't attract quality staff.
This means that they often get people who've never worked in childcare before, that they train up, or young girls straight out of college. Either way, there's often very little experience, which makes it hard.

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Also very few ccc will ask for a child to be removed from the centre as they are all businesses out to make money which means they need the kids(and ABC esp need the money)

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They're not all businesses. There are lots of community and local government based not for profits out there, whose main concern, believe it or not, is the children. Most are cheaper - money is not their focus. Most are better - money is not their focus so they attract better staff. Most have 12-24 month waiting lists though.

There's a lot of training available, and some of it does focus on biting, because it is such a horrible thing to be involved in. Maybe ask the director what training staff (any staff) have done on biting, and strongly suggest that someone does some if it happens a lot.

It's true that they can't tell you who's biting. When we had a biting "epidemic" (1 child bit 27 times in a month) there was a little girl whose parents were so so so upset by it. We did such a good job of maintaining privacy that they would drop her off in the morning, and she would go and play with the biter, and they'd make comments like "Oh, they're such good friends" or "There's youur boyfriend" (wrong for so many reasons) and I'd be thinking "Yeah, that's the kid you want me to kick out, actually"

I feel like I've offered nothing with this post~ early morning rambles! I can offer you the strategies we used when we had biting issues, but I don't know how useful they'd be. What really helped us was one very persistent parent who was constantly in the office, asking what was being done about it, and what could be done next. What that meant for us, the room staff, was that the Director was able to really come on board and help us out. We were grateful for the extra pair of hands, because we had to have someone shadow this kid all the time.

I hope it gets better for you!

I personally would remove her.

Have you looked into family day care? I have my boys there, they can only have 4 kids under 4 so these things don't happen as often. We haven't had ANY incidents of injuries or hitting/biting etc.

I think that daycare seems to be pretending it's not happening and denying it way too much. That is probably why your daughter kept on crying for so long, because 2 months is a long time for them to still be upset.

What a horrible situation for you and your DH to be in! Its so hard leaving your little ones not knowing what might happen, but to encounter this stuff constantly... really not ok.

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you can't punish a child in child care, how would you like it if someone was punishing your children???
i understand why you are upset at the situation but look at it from the flip side, if they are allowed to punish that behaviour at day care, are they allowed to punish your child for snatching a toy from someone or throwing a tantrum????

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Umm yes you can! I worked in all child care areas, centre, OSHC and FDC and each had a 'naughty spot/time out' rule.

I would hope that if my child was hurting other kids he would get punished! At the FDC they are at, if they misbehave they go on the naughty step.

At home I disiplin them for things, and I would hope that they weren't let to run amok when they are elsewhere. If they snatch toys, they go in the corner, if they throw a tantrum, they get left to scream it out, or they go in the corner.

They don't do these things usually, and have thrown very few tantrums in their lives (I can count on my hand!) and it is all because... they got ignored or went in the corner.

Let these behaviours go, and you will end up with problems lasting far longer then a couple of weeks until they learn that it's not ok to walk up and snatch a toy or bite someone. And 3 years old is DEFINITLY old enough to know better... I would be horrified to find my 3 year old still biting or snatching.

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Actually, that's not correct. They have to have policies, yes. They have to have parent info, yes. To cover the walls with pages and pages of brightly coloured paper and words, as many ABCs do, well, that's actually not in the Regs of any state.

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Actually - I am the director of a childcare centre, so I DO know - some of it is state regs, alot of it is requirements to fulfill certain aspects of the National Accreditation process. I haven't actually been into an ABC so I can't comment on how much stuff they have up, I have quite a bit in my centre and yes we have biters, but it has nothing to do with over or under stimulation (or colourful pages in the foyer - mine are not in the rooms anyway). Some children are just biters.

I would say the majority of biting occurs in toddlers - as yes, by 3 they definitely do know better. In babies biting is often a form of exploration - testing things out with the teeth, toddlers often do it in frustration - not getting a toy from another child, etc. But by 3, the child will know they are doing the wrong thing.

babies is totally different. They often bite for the hell of it, or when they are getting teeth. They don't bite to hurt you. They might bite for a reaction (my son does and he is 6 months) but he smiles at me when I yelp. He is also teething atm.
Is your child in a mixed room? Or a 3-5 room? How old is the child that is hurting her?

I think there is a lack of communication happening between you and the service your DD attends and that you need to organise a meeting with them to discuss the issues you have. Making assumptions about the staff and the biter isn't helpful to you and i'm sure you would feel much better to get this off your chest. These people look after your most precious possesion and you need to be able to talk openly with them. Ask them what strategies they have in place for dealing with the biter.
In regards to removing the child, this is a difficult thing to do in terms of equal opportunity and is an absolute last resort. The service may be trying to implement strategies to help the child which you are not aware of. As mentioned it would be a great idea for you to impower your DD to stick up for herself and to say "stop" in a big voice.

Snugglybean - I understand what your saying about overstimulaion on the walls in CCC. I have done inservice training in this area and am all to aware of the impact this can have on children. However, in my experience this doesn't mean that children don't hit, bite or hurt others. In the centre where I work we only have minimal art displays and the required policies etc on the walls but biting still occurs from time to time. As ausgirl said, some children are just biters. Often children who bite don't just do it in care but do it in other social situations as well.
I have issue with the negative slant you place on all private childcare. It is wrong to say that it doesn't attract as good a staff and often young staff are great because they have lots of enthusiasm and are up to date on best practice. There should be balance in any service with staff and as I have stated in another thread, the private centre I work for is overstaffed. I understand that some private services do give us all a bad name but I have worked in 2 community based centre's which had there own issues. Every centre needs to be treated individually. Independent private centre's are actually on par with community based centre's when it comes to quality. I am pretty anti ABC (also anti McDonalds)but thats just from the ones around where I live and maybe there are some good ones out there and i'm certainly sure that there are some great child care workers working in them as we can't all work in community based centres. I'm sorry to go off topic abit but I am very passionate about this. It's this type of attitude that gets childcare workers nowhere. We all need to stick together and acknowledge that we can't do without eachother and work together for better conditins instead of fighting.

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It's this type of attitude that gets childcare workers nowhere. We all need to stick together and acknowledge that we can't do without eachother and work together for better conditins instead of fighting.

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Yes I agree totally. I get really tired about the negative spin that is always put on childcare in the media - I am sure you could all understand just how hard it is to do your job on a daily basis when you wake up and there is yet another negative report on childcare in the media - whether it be some silly old bat who thinks writing excellent children's stories qualifies her to have an opinion, or some other report about how damaging childcare is to infants. Until childcare starts getting some positive support, how is anyone supposed to have the courage to improve it?

I also took a particular dislike to the feeling I took from this statement:

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the next level of management involved (they hate this)

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Yes we hate it, does anyone like having management breathing down their necks? But we hate it because we'd much prefer to work with our families to solve their issues. The feeling I get from that statement (and I may be wrong), is that centres have something to hide and deserve to get management in to check up on them.

This is just my opinion, I worked in childcare - and have a son, so I'm seeing two sides of the situation.

Firstly, it would break my heart, I wouldn't put my own son in care because I wouldn't be able to control what was happening to him, I'm a hypocrit, but I just couldn't do it and I really admire mothers (and fathers) who have the strength to put their child in care.

Secondly, its really hard when on child is hitting/biting/bullying another - because its one persons precious baby hurting another persons precious baby - its a no-win situations for the carers! Its horrible, it was the worst part of my job filling out accident reports and explaining to parents that their child was hurt one way or another while in my care, but sometimes there is nothng the carer can do.

BUT LASTLY, I think you childcare center has handled it poorly. It sounds like they dont want to own up to whats going on because they dont want you to think its a poorly managed center - but like, when you came to them the first time, had they sat down and worked out an action plan, would you feel more confident with them? Honestly, I think its disgusting that they didn't have an accident report for her lip, and as someone else mentione they should have called you before you came to let you know so it wasn't a shock when you arrived to pick her up, and they should have done the same for any of the followig injuries, as when its an ongoing issue, you're stacking up evidence that says to you that the carers have no idea whats going on and they dont care - this might not be the case, but its definately how it appears.

Had they done all that, when accidents happen, mistake are made, children just be children, it wouldn't feel so much like the carers simply dont care. Yeah?

Anyway, thats just my opinion.

I think you need to talk to the director rather than the child carers involved and/or put your name on some other waiting lists and hope for the best.

Also, I like OlivesMummies suggestion - at my old centre we'd teach the children to put their palm forward and say in a big loud voice "stop, I dont like that" - too cute seeing a 2 year old say that to a 7 month old who's nicked their toy - but also useful for the older children, as when the child whos htting hears that, they often do stop and take note.