Having more babies and impact on village

As a number of you would know, I'm in 'negotiations' with DH about having #3 hahaha. But one thing that keeps coming into my head is the reaction I will get from my village.. which is essentially my mum.

My mum is just fantastic, she's always popping in and giving me a break from the kids, she takes DS off my hands when he's driving me batty LOL, and was great whilst I was pregnant with both of them, during m/s etc.

But since we have the 'usual' family of 2 kids, and we got both a boy & a girl, I can't help feeling that if I have another, that I'd be pushing my village too far, and that the reaction will be that I wanted another one, I have to deal with it. I have my bad days with 2 (but don't we all? please say we all do LOL) and I do feel if I have a 3rd then I probably would need mum, possibly more.. altho it would be in a different way as time goes on.. DS is much easier for her to look after these days, he helps in the garden etc etc.. not as tiring as a toddler like DD at 16 mths. Plus DS is at preschool 2 days a week etc.

So I guess my question is.. does anyone else feel like this? Surely I'm allowed to rely on my village somewhat? We don't have to be supermums and do it all on our own do we? I could try to make my village larger, and I think I'll make the effort with other local mums to do kid swaps & things like that.. but how much does this kind of thing weigh into your decision to TTC?

i hope my post made sense. I know mum would help me out no matter what, but she isn't young, she's 75, and I can't shake the feeling it would be selfish to have another if I rely on her support. Yet at the same time, I should have a village shouldn't I? Perhaps it feels a bit like a one-way village, and that makes me feel bad. Perhaps I do need to expand my village to other mums or something so it's more 2-way with regards to children. I do a fair bit for mum as well, just not kid related.

OK.. thanks for reading my ramble. Any comments would be appreciated :)

I understand what you are saying. We have told my mum that we are expecting number 3 and she squealed down the phone with excitement - she loves all her grandkids. But after the initial excitement, every time she is on the phone with me now, all she does is tell me how much I will have my hands full, it will be so difficult etc etc etc. And I think - well - I'd like to think that I got pregnant because the universe thinks I can handle it, and I may not have the same faith in myself - but I'm sure I'll be ok.

We haven't told my IL's yet - because all my FIL will say is "oh well, still early days, anything can happen" and its really discouraging to hear that when you want some excitement. But I can't expect any support from them, cos they don't give us any support now - so I'm kinda used to it.

We are planning to move away from "The Village" after this baby is born - so I won't have any support. The thought is scary - but kinda exciting and "grown up" all at the same time ;)

I think if its right for your family - it'll all work out in the end.

I'm the type that can cope if I have to... mum went away to the UK for 2 months and I survived just fine.. just that when her help is here.. I tend to use it! LOL. So it's not really that I'd HAVE to have her help, but it is playing a part in my mind that it feels a bit selfish that me having another baby impacts her too. I don't think I'd actually let it stop me having another, but I kinda need to be reassured that it's OK to have some kind of reliance on a village. We have such a supermum mentality these days.. it's hard to let yourself rely on others.

:

---

. I know mum would help me out no matter what, but she isn't young, she's 75, and I can't shake the feeling it would be selfish to have another if I rely on her support. Yet at the same time, I should have a village shouldn't I? Perhaps it feels a bit like a one-way village, and that makes me feel bad. Perhaps I do need to expand my village to other mums or something so it's more 2-way with regards to children. I do a fair bit for mum as well, just not kid related.

---

Yes, you do have to expand your village. If it's just your mum, its not a village mate. And in the nicest possible way, she has done enough for you! You can't play the village card on your mum ;)

xoxoxo

I think about this too Liz. We are lucky to have a really good village (mostly family). But I am constantly aware of not using them 'too much' (how much too much is, I'm never entirely sure). And I do think about what I can expect from them if we go on to have three children. I do think that I could 'push them too far', particularly my family. The ILs would not be at all judgemental (although they all have bigger families) and would help out no matter what.

My mum is my main help. She looks after DS while I work, which is currently one day a week. Until recently it was two days, and I found that with mum also working two days, and both of us having busy lives it meant that we didn't really spend any time together. I think me dropping back to one day will mean that we have maybe one day a fortnight when we are both free to go out and do something together, or just for me to go over there for lunch or something, which is nice. Also, when mum had DS the two days I really didn't like to ask her to do any other babysitting for us. Occasionally she would, but I didn't like to have her do it all the time. She is only 55, but she still gets worn out! My PIL are great with having DS now that he's a bit older, so that is helpful, though I tend to only ask them when we're going out in the evening once in a while. My SIL and her family love to have him, but they live 40 minutes away, in the opposite direction from pretty much anywhere we'd be going! One of my step-sisters is very happy to have him too, but there are a few reasons (family politics :rolleyes:) why I don't like to do that too much, so he only goes there occasionally.

SO, I think about what I'll do during my next pg, during which I'm assuming I will be as sick as I was last time. My mum will help, but can only do certain days. My PIL will help, but although retired they also have weekly commitments. Also, they are about 70, and I'm aware of not asking too much of them. Beyond that I don't really like to ask anyone to do much on a regular basis. Now, if we decide to have a third child, that will be interesting. Chances are I would be sick while pg again. That means two children to care for, although we can assume that DS will definitely be at kinder, probably more likely school by then. Maybe even our second child will be at kinder. My mum mightn't be working then. So that all helps in some way. BUT, my stepdad is currently 73. Not that he acts it ATM, he works a 50 (at least) hour week, and they have a busy family and social life. But the reality is that at some stage my mum may well be busy caring for him, and have less time to dedicate to us. Or not want to have noisy kids in the house all the time with a sick and/or elderly husband. That might be next week, it might not be for 10 years, it might never happen. But it's a distinct possibility. There is also the reality (although I hate to think of it :() that mum will be on her own at some point. Again, that might not be for a long time, but who knows? I know that if she's on her own she would spend alot of time helping us out (not that I am wishing for that AT ALL).

So there are alot of things to think about. My dad and stepmum currently live interstate, but who knows, they might move back to Melbourne, and live close enough to help us out! I have some good friends with kids, and as they all get older we might be able to help each other out a bit.

Liz, I totally get where you're coming from, particularly in regards to your mum's age (and age of the kids!!!). I think that you will be able to cope, even without much help from your mum. Given that your current kids will be older, maybe at school/kinder etc, you will have more time on your own (with your pg belly, and then baby of course!). Help, particularly from family, is almost always welcome, but many survive without it. Yes, they probably do it harder than those who do have help, but they survive. I'm sure you would too ;)

ETA :redface: I just realised how long this is!

I am insanely jealous lol.

Personally I dont think you should go into this with your mum helping you out in your mind - just in case. Of course the extra help if and when available is appreciated, but it can't be demanded as such - I don't think that is fair.

Unfortunately I am in the situation of having no family support whatsoever here - and whenever we visit our family NOONE ever takes my kids off my hands for a few hours - hence me being jealous ;) My friends here have also got little kids and sometimes cant cope with 1 so I am guilty because I dont think it is fair to inflict my 3 on anyone for a couple of hours :redface: Do you have friends like that??

And I am exhausted - in all honesty, stuff gets done, kids get to where they have to be, they are clean, fed, clothes washed - but my house leaves a bit to be desired, I see past the mess somedays - but I have to for MY sanity. My husband also travels and is away 2 - 4 nights per week - and whilst I know this is the life we have somehow chosen LOL, I hate that my family never offer to help - and we now have my MIL and my dad and step mum who have retired!!!

So accept the help when it is offered, but dont expect it to increase with your family size IYKWIM.

:

---

So accept the help when it is offered, but dont expect it to increase with your family size IYKWIM.

---

Mmmm, see if anything, I expect to decrease with our family size. That probably doesn't make sense at all, but I know what I mean LOL. Sort of like, the more we have and the older we get, the more we should know what we're doing?????

Yeah, well that's what it's feeling like. I do have a wider village, but I don't call on it with regard to the kids much if that makes sense. The few times the kids drive me nuts she helps out, even if it's just sitting in the back room with them while they play. She does her knitting or whatever while they play. I take those opportunities to go and get my washing in in peace etc.

OK, this will sound bad, but I'll say it anyway LOL. I don't ask her to drop in all the time, she just does, and this gives me a bit of a break, just coz it's a change for the kids, to have someone drop in etc. She's not necessarily 'doing' anything, but it does help. It's only a few times that she's taken DS coz I'm ready to throttle him LOL. She doesn't do nappy changes or anything like that, just provides us all with her company :) Which is all I really feel I need from a village anyway... Even with a newborn, she doesn't necessarily help with the baby, but rather she reads to the toddler or something. It's not hard yakka that I'm asking of her.

Like I said, I do feel like there are others I could call upon if I needed to, but there's a reluctance there, coz I don't really need much, so I just deal with it, and with mum always here, she just helps take the pressure off a bit.

Hope that makes sense. I'm not ungrateful for mum's help, but I don't necessarily 'need' it. All the same tho, she comes to mind when I think about having another. Altho, during first tri I DO need help, I'm a hopeless couch potato when I've got m/s LOL. But it's usually only with regard to feeding the family, so I could call upon others to help with that if need be. i don't have fussy eaters, so anything to put in the freezer would be appreciated from anyone.

:

---

You can't play the village card on your mum

---

Now see... is the village a card to be played? Who can you play it with?? This is why I feel like the village doesn't work these days, coz it feels so much like using people. This is probably the first time I've referred to mum as my village, but only so I could put it into a context that people could relate to, and ask if they consider their village when planning more kids. It's been a natural thing we've fallen into, I haven't relied heavily on mum, yet she's always around to help. I'm not demanding she help with the grandkids coz she's my village or anything.

PMSL.. i'm sounding defensive.. but I'm not really.. I just don't think I really 'get' the whole village thing. Maybe I do have a village, and don't really realise it, because I've got some kind of formal definition of village in my head LOL.

ETA: ok. the one thing I have asked of her is that she come to swimming with us. I probably could do it on my own with both kids, but her sitting on the sidelines helps immensely when it comes time for us getting dry & dressed! This is the only point at which she sometimes grumbles LOL, and if it really did annoy her I could always take Kayla for her lesson while DS is at preschool, but it just works at the moment to have them have their lessons at the same time. And I think deep down she enjoys it, but she does feel tired sometimes. But we don't ahve regular days that she looks after him or antying, so I'm not demanding any support that way.

And I don't think I expect the support to increase necessarily, no doubt it would be just the same, her sitting and watching the kids, but it only makes sense that if there's 3 instead of 2, there's bound to be more to it. But yeah, the older two will be at school & preschool before we know it, so I guess in essence things wouldn't change THAT much. I do think the main thing would be the pregnancy. That would be where I would be actually asking for specific help. But i can make sure I ask for help from others too (and get my PIL's to pull their socks up too LOL).

:

---

Mmmm, see if anything, I expect to decrease with our family size. That probably doesn't make sense at all, but I know what I mean LOL. Sort of like, the more we have and the older we get, the more we should know what we're doing?????

---

LOL - I kinda think that too. That if I'm going to have 3, then that's my problem (which it is!) and I won't have a right to vent about coping with the kids LOL.

Ok... I'm determined NOT to put you off having a third! ;) Because I love my third little one and he really does make our family feel complete... I think I would have gone crazy if I couldn't have had just "one more". Now, to answer your question: honestly, yes, having had a third has kinda isolated us even more... mainly because there's an unspoken rule that you don't ask another family with kids to look after your kids if you have more than they do. Well that's how it seems to me. I could be wrong about this. So we basically don't leave our kids with anyone anymore. A sitter might come to us... but we pay. We don't have my mum to help out... she lives interstate. Oh and her reaction to us having a third was "OMG you are breeding like rabbits".... yep, nice... but she has never been supportive of anything so why start then? But you are miles ahead of our dismal situation so i'd say go for it!!! :) My youngest is nearly 3 and time really has flown... before i know it he will be past the super challenging phase and maybe I'll feel ok about leaving them all with other people... it's mainly hard to do this when your children are very young... once they can communicate then people seem happier to take them on for you.

Also, on the other side the coin... virtually no one has asked me to look after their children since I have had my third. I guess they assume I am already over burdened? Maybe they are right... but like I said, we don't have much of a village anyhow. It's kind of a catch-22 situation: you need to be able to particiapte in a village to have a village but by the time you have several children it gets too hard to participate... I think in an ideal world people really should participate in their village BEFORE they need it.... like when they are still single and child-free.... but how many single people want to be stuck at home babysitting when there are "people to meet, places to see" etc. THAT'S the problem... we need our villages when it's too late to create one. Just my experience. My single friends rarely have looked after my children... and it's not as if we haven't helped them out when they needed it... it's just that on the whole they are too "busy" to care for my kids... they are too busy trying to find the right partner so that they can have kids of their own I guess... and maybe THEN they too will quietly wonder where their village is?

:

---

Yeah, well that's what it's feeling like. I do have a wider village, but I don't call on it with regard to the kids much if that makes sense. The few times the kids drive me nuts she helps out, even if it's just sitting in the back room with them while they play. She does her knitting or whatever while they play. I take those opportunities to go and get my washing in in peace etc.

OK, this will sound bad, but I'll say it anyway LOL. I don't ask her to drop in all the time, she just does, and this gives me a bit of a break, just coz it's a change for the kids, to have someone drop in etc. She's not necessarily 'doing' anything, but it does help. It's only a few times that she's taken DS coz I'm ready to throttle him LOL. She doesn't do nappy changes or anything like that, just provides us all with her company :) Which is all I really feel I need from a village anyway...
.

---

That sounds lovely hun, she must enjoy just "being" with the kids and you too - that is love!

Bath, that is exactly what I was trying to say about families!!!!

Gosh, I think we're lucky that we did invest somewhat in our village before having our own children. We have done plenty of babysitting, and overnighters, over the years :lol:. It's probably why I don't feel bad about asking those people to have DS now.

Actually it's just the right time for you to build up a village!

Now, remembering that a village isn't free babysitting, it's about being a part of something related to you and the community you live in. So with DS heading off to Kinder/Pre-school, he will be off making friends and you will meet the mums and have chats at pickup/drop offs. Pretty soon he will be saying "can xx come to my house and play?" and you say oh yeah, great! Then its his turn to go visit (and you get free time!), then you discuss with the other mother how much stinking housework you got done without him there, then she says the same etc etc etc.
One day you may be held up and won't be there in time to pick up DS and you know you can call on someone to watch him for awhile and you breathe a sigh of relief and smile because you have your village to help.

You get me? Then all through Primary School there will be after school playdates, birthday parties and you will end up getting to know lots of other parents and you will end up really clicking with at least one of them. Then they are old enough for 'sleepovers' YAY, and you get more time. Then you do a sleepover at your place, then maybe YOU might be called to pick up xxxx after school 'cos mums gone into labour, and THEY smile because they have their village for help.

THEN - 5 years down the track DS is at high school at he wants to go to some party that everyone is going to, but your not sure about it. Then you find out its a xxxx's place and even though you haven't seen his parents for awhile you remember that they were pretty strict and not likely to serve alcohol...or at least have their phone number to give them a ring and find out without a problem at all. OR you are just not sure to allow him to do such and such and all the other kids are allowed to, its wonderful knowing you can call another parent involved and discuss it. Feel me?

I don't think having lots of kids discourages participation, I think it broadens the scope of the village and the opportunity to make more connections, having built relationships back 17 years ago when DD1 was little - I still have some of them now! It's fantastic :)
I am building more village now DS is at Kinder, and will make more when DD2 goes.

Its actually one of the main reasons I stay at home (broke off my arse) because I have the time to build this up and get to know those kids and families in DS's lives. Lifelong stuff!

Aah - have to spread the love lulu (I don't remember giving you any lovin!! PMSL) Awesome perspective on building the village. Was almost crapping myself thinking I never invested in anything! Not kid related anyway LOL. I'm happy for people to start investing in their own village with my kids tho LOL. And I'd be more than happy to help them out when they have their own!

Yeah... haven't really spoken to any mums yet at the preschool.. do you really stop and talk at the gate?? Everyone seems in such a rush, can't really see opportunity for a chit-chat. Alhto we were early on Tuesday, before they opened the doors, so we were all hovering around.. maybe I need to use that time, when the parents are trapped there waiting for the teacher to open the door and take their child LOL.

It might be a different set up. Is Tallon at a childcare centre type thing? Cos if so, there is never time to even meet another parent....

In Vic we have sessional Kindergarten from age 4 (sometimes 3 if you choose). DS goes 3 days for 3-4 hour sessions, it appears 90% of the mums are SAHMs - its hard if you have to work cos the times are all different.
We have a coffee catch up once a month at the kinder, and do working bees and sausage sizzles etc to raise $$$ for new shades etc etc etc. Always kids running about and siblings crawling over each other..and someone running late without their hair brushed lol

Liz: yep I do the chit chat thing while waiting for my 5yoDS to emerge from his class. So I guess that's a bit about what Lulu was talking about. And I know it's not just all about free baby-sitting... but it is about resource sharing... time, energy, company etc. And I guess with me resources are fairly limited... but I offer what I can... it just seems that very few people take me up on it. I'm quite paranoid that as soon as other parents find out that I don't drive that I am discarded as a potential villager because they worry that I will always ask them for lifts for my children and that I can never reciprocate. I actually make a point of NEVER asking for a lift unless it is offered. I'm the kind of mum that will walk in rain hail and a heatwave if nobody offers a lift. And why shouldn't I drive anyhow? (they must be thinking)... silly inconvenient phobia... I should get over it I guess.

But Lulu I obviously have something wrong with me... I must be really untrustworthy because I offer other parents opportunities to help like "I'll have your child over for a playdate during the school holidays" (because they are a working parent and this might help them out financially)... but no, people don't seem to want to impose... but it makes me fairly paranoid... I mean... is there something wrong with me? :dunno: And if nobody will accept my help then how can I then ask for it?
I know I don't drive a car... but if their child lives near us (ie across the road in one case!) then their child can at least walk home from school with us!

Ah I dunno... this is dredging up a lot of paranoia and sadness for me.... sorry Liz. :(

:

---

We are planning to move away from "The Village" after this baby is born - so I won't have any support. The thought is scary - but kinda exciting and "grown up" all at the same time ;)

I think if its right for your family - it'll all work out in the end.

---

If you end up where I end up then we will have to be each others village...

for us my family was happy for us when we had DD2 but its never the same excitment that you get from when you were having your 1st and 2nd.... MIL has never warmed to DD2 but thats her loss not ours as she is missing out of a wonderful kid...

I do wonder what they will all think if and when we fall UTD with #4 as people openly tell you your crazy, but at the end of the day its your life as long as your both happy with the decion then go for it, by the sounds of it your mum is a super mum anyway...

BTW BHL only wanted 2 so it can be done they can change their minds and he hasnt looked back, now like I said we are going again TTC#4... GL

My mum loves all her grandkids - all 20+ of them! LOL. Ok, so she wouldnt look after them all at once, but she'd damn well try! She has been taking care of three under 5 recently as my poor sister has been in and our of hospital with some unknown viral infection (I believe today its pneumonia. Last week it was something else entirely - my dad has it too and so far for him its been pleurisy and a blood clot in the lung. Maybe one day they will work out what it is). It seems like a lot of work, but thats what the village does. I have a huge village - just none of them within 3 hours of me. I think you will find that you will cope amazingly well - and sometimes, just having that second person there with you for a visit is all you need for that day.

Then of course - in the end, this is yours and your DHs decision. I am sure your mum will still love to be a part of yours and your kids lives either way. Its what we mums do. ;)

Oh and Liz I forgot to mention that I totally understand what you mean about the benefits of having someone just "drop round". My FIl used to come and stay with us for a week here and there after my MIL passed away. He is 75 so we would never ask him to babysit but just having him around the house was so settling for the kids... he would sit by their sand pit and listen to their "stories" for hours on end... and gently guide my teen DD toward speaking better with the boys, and not being so cheeky with me... all he had to say was "hey, listen to your mum now" and i would smile inside... it was JUST the ticket!!! It was such a symbiotic relationship... but now he feels too uncomfortable travelling :( He lives across in Sale (several hours away). He rings me almost once a week for a chat... which is a bit harder for me because the boys tend to play up a bit when i'm on the phone... so i miss this once positive aspect of my village. Oh and FIL had 5 children and was always supportive of having larger families... the more I think about his contribution to the family the more I realise what an asset he has been.

Bath, maybe its because if you are working often you have to drop them off pretty early and pick up late (ie near dinner) and they really might not want to impose?
Then again if its over school holidays, it may be likely the kid is booked into a holiday program somewhere (like I did), so it's pretty much covered. It can be hard doing different things each day (nannas one day, friend the next etc) and those programs can be pretty cool. I see where you are coming from
I find its usually children driven - can Hannah come to playeeeee, pleaseeeeee? It's not like I have much choice sometimes!
So if it was more a "we gotta get these kids together" rather than "can I help you out a bit?", they might not be so paranoid about relying on you...Gawd all this paranoia!! :lol:

Bath - There's nothing wrong with you. I'd accept your help! And I'd be willing to offer help back too. Perhaps its the 'obligation' that comes with accepting help that people don't like. I think this was talked about in another village thread once. *hugs* tho, I know you've struggled with the whole village thing :( I feel really lucky I have my mum just down the road, and tho it felt silly saying she is my village.. just having that one person can be so much more than others might have.

Lulu - it's a local community preschool, so school hrs only, and by the looks a lot might be sahm's coz there's a lot of younger siblings. And I think there is fundraising and working bees and stuff here too, so I'm going to try and be one of those 'involved' parents.

Hmm.. just thinking.. I did a school pickup for someone else just this Monday! LOL - so i'm part of someone else's village! Woot! I think it could well be that my village is larger than I think, just I haven't had a real need for it, so haven't thought about it.

ETA: Aww Bath, he probably misses his little village of grandkids too. See, while mum sometimes has a grumble (she's a bit of a grumbler LOL) I know she's really enjoying her grandkids. She didn't/doesn't have this constant interaction with my bro's kids, and now they're in canberra, so we hardly see them. So I think she does enjoy it.. I mean, she still calls in all the time! Even if it's just to see how Tallon's day at preschool was.

Thanks girls :) And yes, Lulu, you're right about how I phrase the offer. I think at the moment my 5yo is still quite shy and I guess hasn't asked for a playdate... and my 14yoDD is fairly independant... althought come to think of it we are briefly connected to the parents of the other year 9 girls at her school... but there aren't the same social opportiunites for parents when your children reach highschool... that's half the problem. And my 2yo doesn't go to childcare or kindy yet... we have dropped playgroup because logistically it doesn't work ATM. But i think you are right... things will improve once I get to know more parents. But everyone really seems so busy... and everyone does seem to have their own extended families that seem to require a lot of their time and energy... I have felt it hard to weave our family into the lives of other families for that reason.

Liz :hug: awww, and likewise... it's hard when you meet people on BB who you have so much in common with and who seem so open... then you venture out into the real world and everyone just seems so closed, suspicious, and wary of obligation. I think I'll turn this around and make it a greater priority to attend more BB meetups!!! Shame I couldn't attend the last one at Cai's place... but bring on April!!!

OMG you are all so so lucky to have the help if needed! My nearest relative is 6000km away on the other side of country and all though we moved away it would be nice occasionaly to have some help...with housework of cause LOL!
Even when i had DS who is nearly 7 and we were within a few hundred kms, i only ever had him looked after by DP's sister once for a couple a days while we had a getaway when he was 2yrs, and all i did was fret for the two days until he was bad in my sites so it wasn't even a getaway!
I have always done it on my own with DP and i just couldn't imagine it any other way. I'm certainly not judging anyone, but i don't think you should base your decision for a third on the presumption you will need more "VILLAGE" help, you would cope no matter what because that is what you would have to do....no choice, just do what you have to do to get it done, where not supermums!

Yeah, I wouldn't base the decision on it, but life doesn't revolve around just me. There's no doubt a flow-on, and with mum so involved already, of course it would impact her, she'd have more grandkids to play with! hehe. I mean, I wouldn't even involve her in any discussions about whether to have more, that's between me & DH, but I can't ignore the impact it has on other people I don't think.

And yep, I know we'd cope without a village, we'd have to, but it changes the dynamics with so many things. Plain old babysitting to try and have a date with my husband would be somewhat harder with 3 (not that this really happens with 2 anyway LOL) and I do think involvement with other families can be impacted with their perception of how busy you probably are etc. I just find myself bringing the village into the equation when talking about TTC, that's all :)

I didn't meet ONE parent from DD's high school for a looong time. But when I picked her up or parents did pick ups from my house I jumped on the opportunity. Even just to say hello - now we stop for a natter and it was brilliant when another parent (after about 12 months of quick chats at the door!) asked me about my stand on drinking and overnight stays etc. She was the same as I, and let me know all the other parents with our views (cos you know everyone else is allowed to *insert stupid behaviour here*). Now we know when there is a sleep over at xxxx's house, its gonna be ok, XxXx's parents are always away and never supervise or XXXX's parents let them drink but ALWAYS supervise etc.
We all feel better knowing what is happening when we are not there!

Hey, unless you live in the outback everyone can make their own village!

Can I venture to ask, if people don't feel they have a village, do they have support from other avenues such as childcare etc? I tend to think formal, paid childcare is a result of a lack of village. So these parents aren't necessarily doing it on their own? Sorry if that offends, just a thought I had. In fact, even govt family payments etc have probably become a necessity because we all feel we need to stand on our own and not live as a village. Actually, I don't know why we can feel entitled to receive help from the govt with each extra child, and yet not be allowed to expect anything from a village. And I'm not talking about take take take from a village, it goes both ways, we need to participate, but I don't see anything wrong with wondering if the support would be there if I had more children.

:

---

Hey, unless you live in the outback everyone can make their own village!

---

That's true Lulu, altho not sure how that would make someone like Bath feel, who is trying to expand her village but feeling it's a bit tough. But yeah, it does depend upon us to get out there and get a village if we don't have a lot of family around, even then family doesn't always help anyway!

Ah no, I meant Danni - it's not just extended family that should count as you village - that's sorta what I meant.

Bath, don't be discouraged there ARE parents out there you will click with, you just haven't found them yet. I noticed there were already 'cliques' and tight friendships between kids and families at Primary School - because they had already been at the kinder that fed directly into the school. I felt poor DD missed out on some opportunities because she did Kinder at the Day Care Centre and that was totally different with parents coming at all different times from different areas
I used to lament having no one to talk to on the days I could pick her up from school (which was pretty often) - the main clique all drove brand spanking FWD's, wore aerobic gear and biatched about their husbands. They weren't interested in another friendly face (until I got married, then they all were lovely to me bleeeugh).
BUT, then came a party invitation and I met another working mum - she let me know there was quite a few parents working (not just me, cos I felt like it!) and felt the same. After that I always had someone to sit with at concerts, sports days etc.

DS has only been going to Kinder a few months now, and all the mums are getting to know each other. One has organized a phone number list for extra playdates (how I hate that word), and I have just met another single mummy that lives down the street. I've been here 3 years and never met her before now! Her DD is DS's new love so I'm sure we will see plenty of them and the mum seems lovely.

For me (cos I have family fairly close) its more about my kids making lots of friends from all over the place. All families are different and I believe kids learn so much about things from how different everyone is. Mummy making new friends and acquaintances is a BIG side benefit ;)

I have been thinking about this village thing (whilst grating up stuff for dinner) and realised that I did actually approach someone to be in a village - a girl who's husband worked with my DH (before he switched jobs) when our kids were little (our boys are 5 months apart) I rang her up and asked her if she wanted to mind my boy for a few hours one day and I would do the same for her the next week - so each fortnight we would have a few hours just to do whatever we wanted (hair cuts, waxes, massage - whatever)...

and she rejected me.. she said no.. she couldn't handle having both kids... so I'm not sure if that was a reflection on how she saw my DS at the time (who has always been a handful) and I know people think he's a PITA cos its been said to me before - so how are you supposed to get a village when all the other mothers think he's so very painful? :redface:

I have live interstate without family and not using daycare, so my kids have grown up with out EVER been baby sat BHL and I have NEVER been anywhere without the kids...

We move to where family are and still nothing has changed, so in that respect if we had to move interstate again I know we cope nicely on our own...

Having also moved more time than I like to admit to ( with more to come ) I have to say I ALWAY find it very very hard to break into the circle of mums... I am a SAHM so I am there everyday to pick up my kids, we have been here almost a year and still have not met any friends not one talks, it can be very dishearting but I have learned not to expect much and to be happy with my little family, as at the end of the day they are my world....

The hardest part is when you have to enrole you kids into school and they ask for numbers of people they can contate if they cant get you... they are never happy when I tell them there is no one just me and BHL if he is home... I was even told by a kindy teacher last year that, that wasnt good enough and that I would have to make friends fast so that they can be the IOE contate... Opps never did that, I was so upset to as for the first time ever I actully had name to put down ( my parents ) but been that they were 1.5 hr drive away she didnt think they were good enough...

sorry bit of topic but just saying that even without a village I am coping ok...

You sound just like me, Tali. We put Dhs brother down as the contact number - but he will be about as useful as my sister who lives in far nth qld. They never need to try anyone else but us anyway as we run a business from home - so we're always here when the kids are at school. LOL.

It was the business that really helped with the coping. When we first moved so far away, DH was working in the city still and I was a complete mess at the whole concept. I had never lived so far away from my family, and my family is tight. It was an extremely difficult move for me, and even the first day moving in when things went wrong, DH & I were on our own - we had no one to call for help and it sucked bigtime. I think even he felt the pinch of the decision when it became apparent that it was iron deficient me and carpel tunnel riddled him only to get that piano off the back of the truck. It wasnt easy at all, but we moved it up the driveway slowly and together. Took us a couple of days to get it where it was mean to go - but we did it together and I think we have never doubted OUR ability since then - so now we work together on all things. I am a student aswell yes, because DH wants to give me the opportunity to realise any career aspirations I may have had, but we run our business, we raise our kids, we keep our home - together. We are all the village we need. People say you can't spend every day together - but DH and I have our own time worked out and are doing just fine.

I still miss my big village, but thats more me missing my family with a little anxiety about the fact that I may have to go this next birth alone with no support person. But a village doesn't have to be big - not if it works.

i dont' have my Gremlin here just yet, but wanted to poke my nose in here and just comment. my DH and i live in a rather small town - he's been here his whole life, i've been here nearly four years - and i admit that our "village" out here is DH's village, not mine. i know i have people within two house blocks that i can call on for help, probably 30 people within town that i KNOW would jump to help - but they aren't people i feel comfortable approaching for help. if i need something, i call my bro and sil, or my mum (as painful as it is). i talk my issues through with my BB friends (my emotional village) more often than i'd ever do with my IRL village. my IRL village is spread over several towns, and most don't have the same family dimensions as we do (or will have soon) - all have older kids, or no kids etc. i'm the first to jump to help anyone that needs it, but i struggle to ask the same people for help!

i'm hoping to become a member of a mothers group when Gremlin arrives so that i can find some people who have kidlets similar in age to our little girl so that we can have a cuppa and just talk stuff through - but i struggle to make friends IRL so i'm more likely to talk to my BB girls! hell, i know Bronners lives nearby and is due to have a kidlet any day (if she hasn't already) and i haven't met her yet - so i understand the lack of village feeling. i know people are there, i just can't build that network myself...

Hi I have'nt read everyones posts, but I can say I had a similar experience to what you are feeling. My parents were very anti us having another baby, mum would go as far as talking about a vas for DH. I was fearful of their reaction ot the point that we had decided to go for it I fell preggers then lost the baby at around 7 weeks i did'nt say anything, the smae thing happened again, it was'nt until after the 3 MC that I could'nt give a damn and in anger told mum what was happening. She ws less than impressed, I think after further discussion she thought I was toooooo old and i have problems in my pregnancies which she sugggested was'nt worth it. unfortubately?fortunately I am not my mum and life is'nt so B&W for me. We got preganant and after an eventful 4 months with loads of bedrest I ended up having a good rest of the pregnancy. My village was'nt available whne bubs was due, which i had been informed before hand, but it was tough, I have been told that they will not be able to look after the kids on a regular basis and definately not all at once. Don't get me wrong they love the kids especially once they are here, but are very opinionated and stubborn and no mind cahnging will happen. I make do with what I get and we use family day care for half a day per week for the 2 older ones, it is hard to make friends, we go to playgroup and we are friendly but freinds??? I am hoping in time it will happen...
After everything I am finding it hard, I love my kids but do need more help. Definately would'nt change a thing though i would have major regrets, if our lives did'nt take this course. Our baby girl is so gorgeous as are the other kids, just feels different, cause if we had taken others advice she would'nt be here. Am working hard on extending my village.........

I guess my basic starting point is that grandparents should not be expected to look after their grandchildren and they should not be taken for granted. I've heard women get the hump because non-working grandma doesn't want to look after the grandchild(ren) for one day a week. I think that's really unfair (to expect that).

Now, personally, I will be lobbying for DD to do the opposite of what I did and have about three kids by the time she's 25 because I can't wait to be a grandma BUT I don't think there should be a presumption that they 'should' help out. Great if they want to, but really, they've paid their dues already.

We don't have a village ATM. My parents live in the UK and DP's mum is dead and his dad is in a nursing home. I would not be able to keep mum and dad away if they lived near us which would very much be a double-edged sword, believe me.

We do get paid care when we need it AND DSD has been a gem since she started living with us. Really, a bloody marvel. She will often tell me to go out on a Saturday afternoon while she minds DD. I cannot tell you how liberating that is to not have to worry about when DD is going to wake up from a nap (often not till 3pm) until I can go out. DP usually works weekends so often every day feels the same and we don't get chance to do things as a family.

Geez Bath, I hope you're not being left out because you're a non-driver. I'm in the same boat. I feel a little silly at times especially as I did actually pass my test and wish I could get over the nervousness of driving. I haven't driven since the day I passed - how stupid is that?

Lulu, I think you've painted a very good picture of how villages evolve over time. DP loves doing drop-offs and pick-ups because he is a COMPLETE noseyparker and loves having a look at other people's places especially as we are mid-reno and he comes back with stories of other people's kitchens. OK, that has NOT added much to the discussion so I will stop there.

Liz: to answer your question about paid care: My 2yo was attendeding a CC centre for one day a week just to give me a break... but he only went about 4 times (a month) before I started to have reservations about the quality of care he was receiving... plus he started to really reject going there so, because it was just for a bit of "me time" I pulled him out and now I have gone back to just having Saturday mornings off like I used to... with DH at home with the 3 kids. I still wish I could have one weekday off because there are quite a lot of things that I wish i could get done during business hours... dental appointments... enquiring about future study etc.

I also agree with Fiona that Grandparents shouldn't be taken for granted. I have to admit to feeling a bit ... hmmm.... concerned about a few families we know that leave their young children (babies/toddlers) with elderly Grandparents on a weekly basis so to avoid paying childcare fees (yes, i know that sounds harsh but I think it's what it boils down to). Look, as mums we all know how tiring and demanding young children are... I myself am exhausted after a full day of caring for my boys... even just my 2yo can be tiring... lifting him into prams... cleaning up his messes that he spills on the floor (easy enough for me to bend over and clean up a spill... but not so easy for a 60+ yo woman)... bending over to change his clothes or help him on the potty... hurrying around outside looking for him, finding the gate left open... sprinting down the drive and finding him on the footpath... picking up toys on the floor, tripping over trains. I honeslty think it's too much for an elderly person to be doing by themselves for more than a few hours. But some parents seem happy to leave their toddlers with Grandparents up to 2/3 times a week! I'll be honest and wonder how satisfactory this really is. Eyesight is another issue: my 60+ yo mother once served us up a plate of steamed vegies that had aphid-infested broccoli!!! ewwwww! Ok, might not have killed us... but I would hope she would at least put on her glasses to read the correct dose of Panadol for example.

I'm not suggesting that it's always wrong to leave your children in the care of elderly grandparents... but just from my experience, and like Fiona's point, I have personally seen them taken for granted and parents really need to think about whether it is really in the best interests for all concerned.... especially when it is regular and for more than once a week.

Lulu: Yes, with my 5yo DS who has just started school: he is the only child to have come from his kindergarten (pre-school)... all the other kids went to the one in this area... my son went to one a little further away... so yes... all the other parents know each other and it's going to take me a little longer to make friends. They seem a nice enough group of parents though :) It's still early days... I'm sure it'll be ok. There is one family who live in our street who I guess I would have hoped to have been a part of my village but I think i just have to accept that we are too different (remember my "I can't do hysterically happy thread? LOL yep, think that kind of different)... and I don't drive a flash European car or a brand new 4WD... which seems to be a pre-requisite to be a real member of their village... oh and I don't much care about grooming myself to the point of bankruptcy every day... I think I'm the Felicity Kendal of the street who just isn't interested in keeping up with Penelope Keith (The Good Life - 1970's British sitcom... yep, showing my age here). IYKWIM.

I think I see a village a lot differently to other people. I don't see a village as free babysitting. I don't see a village as what I can get from it. I see a village as a connection. I don't keep tabs on my villagers to see what they do for me and what I do for them. And TBH I try and do more for my village rather than expect more from my village. I don't have villagers that will take my children at the drop of a hat, and I don't get upset with said villagers if I can't get help for whatever reason, and I know the same applies if I can't help them. My village first and for most is supportive, its a connection with people that I have that extends from that of acquaintance type relationships. I believe that my children are my responsibility, I am their prime carer. And as someone who doesn't have access to child care, or family that will take my children whenever I would like I have pretty much done it on my own. I'm not a martyr, its just the way it is. But time out doesn't need to be separate from your children. IMO getting out or having people come to visit with their children so they can play can be just as enjoyable as going out for a night out. As can an hour long phone conversation with a girlfriend while you fluff around and do housework. My husband is the person I turn to if I want complete time out. We still try to have "dates" when we can, even if that means me cooking a 3 course meal to be eaten after the kids in bed, lighting some candles and sipping on some red and reconnecting. DS is 3 he has started Kinder this year, and he is loving it. So basically for 3 years I have not had much time to myself, I have not had the cleanest of houses and thats ok. But it was only 3 years. I now have 5 hours a week to do the things I need, and to be honest that is PLENTY of time. And next year it will be 11.5 hours and then after that he will be gone for over 30 hours a week. I honestly think that perhaps people expect too much from their village these days, there is no point in me looking towards another who has a lot of phsyical support from family members and comparing my situation and thinking somehow I am worse off. I am not it is just different, I still have support and connections I just operate differently within my village.

To answer the original question, no I don't think having children should be dependent on the type of support you get from your village. Especially given anything can happen at any time and you are never ever going to be certain that there will be villagers to lend a hand.

I think also that as a society we need to look more at what we can do for our village, and less about what our village can do for us ;) Or I daresay we'll end up with no village at all.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't leave the kids with mum like that. As I said, the only regular thing we have is her coming up to help with swimming lessons, the rest of the time is her popping in, or me popping in there, and we have a cuppa together, and it's a change in company for the kids. Tallon's at a good age now for her to take for a few hours, he's toilet trained, he likes to sit and do puzzles with nana or help to cook or something like that. Otherwise her 'babysitting' is usually with me there most of the time LOL.

She actually offered to have Tallon 1 day a week not long ago when there was a bit of uncertainty with his preschool. She said she'd have him until he got into the preschool we wanted. But I said no. And turns out he was offered a spot anyway. But I wouldn't have done it to her LOL.

I think if I was relying on mum like that then my question would have been all the more important.. because she would HAVE to be considered when discussing whether to TTC. I don't think it's a good idea either that people pop out kids for the grandparents to look after.

However, I'll still stand by my saying I think it's ok to expect support from your village (not talking about set days per week, just general support) I think it would be sad if we all had to feel that we had to be utterly independent and self sufficient in order to have kids. It's natural to have help and to help others. I'd hate my kids to feel like they 'shouldn't' expect anything from me as a grandparent, and that anything they ask of me was a favour. I think it's lovely to have friends & family that are just there for each other, with no score keeping.

Yes I agree things can get off balance, and people can be taken advantage of, but I think in general it's ok to 'expect' some support from the village. And by 'expect' I mean it differently from 'demand'. If I do get pg again, I'll need to call on the village for some help during that first trimester, and I don't think it's wrong to have that in my 'plans' that I'd need some help. The help goes both ways anyway eventually, if not already.

I'll also just clarify that since we've been discussing this I've realised my village is in fact larger than just my mum LOL. So i'm not talking about relying solely on my mum during the first tri :)

:

---

it is hard to make friends, we go to playgroup and we are friendly but freinds??? I am hoping in time it will happen...

---

I know what you mean. We've been in a music class for 3 terms and only recently really started chatting afterwards (and of course now we've changed classes coz of preschool times LOL.. so have to start again!) but I know what you mean about being friendly but not friends. It's going to take effort to take it past the friendly chat after school and actually invite someone round or something.

ETA: I agree somewhat Cai - and I hope my posts haven't sounded like a take take take from the village, coz that's not what it's like at all :) And my original question wasn't whether it should be dependent on the support received from the village, it was about taking into consideration the impact it can have on the village. I guess coz I wouldnt' want to be taking advantage like we've been talking. Coz people help whether you like it or not LOL. Interestingly tho, rereading your post.. I've been the same for 3 years.. no time to myself, had the kids with me pretty much constantly, DH & I don't go out without them.. we squeezed in a 2hr lunch for our anniversary last year LOL.. otherwise our anniversaries include the kids. So my village doesn't necessarily provide me with breaks.. it's the support.. the odd meal for the family, chats on the phone (or net :) ) and more often than not, it's a cuppa with mum when she pops in and she sits with the kids. But I don't think you can deny that if you have another baby, you do draw on that support more, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Cai: Everything you said makes sense. However I hope it doesn't come across that I am only looking for a village so that I can get something from it like free baby sitting. I do believe that I spend an equal amount of time wondering what I can contribute, but I like i mentioned earlier it seems that so far that what i have to offer hasn't really seemed of use to anyone... even my company or conversation. However I think this will change as I get to know new parents at my DS's new school.

I've been a SAHM for nearly 9 years in total... not consecutive. And I guess it wasn't until I had my third child that I have really started to mourn a greater sense of connection to a village. Maybe when I was working and studying I was too busy to even think about it... and when I was younger with my first child I didn't expect to have much of a village because I was the first of my friends to have a baby and kinda expected to be isolated.

What really changed my perspective was developing a chronic illness. When I was diagnosed with Graves disease I lost alot of my resilience :( That notion you described Cai of happily accepting 100% responsibility for the care of my children was severely challenged. At the worst of it about a year ago things got so bad that I did something really hard and asked for help... asked for the one thing I swore I would never do: ask another mum to drive my 4yo to kinder. She didn't have to drive more than 3 houses out of her way but I still found it so hard. I really had no other option... it was either ask and risk rejection or pull him out of kinder because there was no way known I could get him to kinder every day with the extreme fatigue and chest pain that I was suffering. Anyhow this lovely mum did help and I am forever grateful. I offered several things in return... would her son like to come over and play during school hols... could i pick him up from kinder occassionally too... but no... she never asked anything because she had her own mum to do all that thanks. Once I started to respond to medication and felt better I imediately resumed full transport responsibility of my DS. Very conscious not to take advantage.

So... I guess my point is that while we are fit and healthy and capable then needing people in terms of what they can do to help is minimal... but what if you too fell ill.... what then?

For me I could see the almost spiritual benefit of going through the humbling process of asking for help... it certainly made me leave my comfort zone! And maybe it has also opened my eyes to signs that other mums might not be coping. There's a mum at my son's school that I see everyday... her DD is in my son's class... we often pass out the front of the school... as I am leaving she is grimly pushing her pram, running late again. I don't think i have ever seen her smile. She always looks sad. It would be easy to choose a more receptive parent to smile and say "hello" to... but I continue to make an effort with her. Her vibe is just so lonely... I hope she too isn't battling on without a village :( How can i not feel for her?

Bath severe illness is IMO NOT free babysitting. That is the time when the village including school parents, church whoever, even BellyBelly can help. But yes you should be able to ask your village for help. When my MIL had 2 heart attacks I flew to Perth with my kids to help cook and just be there. I would do that for anyone, and I know a lot of people would. But people often assume you do have support when you don't which is why they don't offer. Does your church have something similar to pastoral care? Do you have a charity organisation that can offer help? I know for some illnesses you can get carers help, but often this information is not given freely. When people from the parish found out about MIL's sickness we had food delivered from St Vincents de Paul's not for poverty reasons but to help so MIL didn't have to cook. Charity isn't just for the poor or underprivileged, it is there for people who don't have the support they need at the time.

This is why I think its extremely important to socialise. I socialise with school, kinder, BB and friends of the family. Not just so I can extend m village but so that I can be part of their village too.

When someone calls and asks if you are ok be honest. People don't know if you don't tell them, and often this is how we block our village by not wanting others to know we aren't coping in times of need. You can't have a village, if you don't put yourself out to be part of one. As my granny told me, pride never helped anyone in need.

Seriously, I just can't leave this subject alone can I?? :lol:

Bath - I know you have had trouble making connections and your inability to do hysterical :ROFL:, but these things take time. I suppose it may have come across that I can just pick up and make friends wherever, but it's not like that. There have been many "eeerrr umm" moments over the years, but its the rose coloured glasses firmly soldered onto my face that enabled me to remember that if I cast the net out far enough, I would find more connections.

Arimeh - You will find that as DS gets older (and you make more connections too) that people will be more willing to have him over for playdates etc. When they are older they are more manageable to others (when they can TELL you want they want clearly etc). My DS is a HANDFUL too (you know it!), but guess what - you will meet someone that has a little hurricane too, then you get to swap stories and laugh that tension away with someone who knows what its like.

Hang in there and put yourself out there.

this topic has been something of an eye opener as to the different perceptions of a village - which is a good thing - it's great to see how different people look at the village, and to learn from each other.

as i mentioned before, i don't have a strong IRL village that i can call on for physical help if needed. i tend to struggle on by myself, feeling ashamed to admit that i need help (which isn't healthy, but we all know we do it!) - i go out of my way to offer assistance where i can, but i seem incapable of accepting it - go figure!

i find the most important thing (for me personally at this point) is to have someone to talk to - about whatever is bugging me. i have learned not to bottle stuff up and encourage others to do the same. yes, i vent a lot on BB when it's just general grrrrr stuff, but when things are really getting me down, i have no issue picking up the phone to talk stuff through - or getting on MSN and just chatting. and i will do the same for my friends (yes, i'm one of those nutty people that keeps my phone by the bed 24/7 and have gone online at 4 in the morning cos someone needs me!). my village is very diverse in the people, their location etc...

as to the "babysitting" thing - i will be returning to work just before Gremlins first birthday. i have a VERY family friendly and flexible job (which is a bonus) and will go back two days a week. my parents and i have talked it through, and mum has asked me not to put Gremlin in day care while i work. between the days DH will be home from work (where he'll look after her), and mum and dad requesting to have time with her at least one day a week, they figure it's better to not put her in care. my mum isn't that old (she's 50 mid year) and as much as she isn't the healthiest of people, she is more than capable of looking after a young child for a day - in fact, she thrives on it! it will give her reason to stay motivated to do things away from the house (dad works perm nights, and sleeps during the day, so mum will plan outtings for the mornings when Gremlin is there which is better for her than doing nothing). due to dad's work hours, he struggles to get out here, so it will also mean he gets to see his grandaughter at least once a week for a few hours when he wakes before work... SIL also wants "gremlin days" so i guess my village are rallying behind me, but it's a mutually beneficial thing (hope that makes sense)

and Liz, i agree - the village is definitely a two way street! my mum is alone most nights from about 4 as dad goes to work. yesterday, DH and I were cooking roast dinner so called mum and invited her over. she enjoyed dinner,and left here with some baby linen to pre-wash for us! she wants to help, knows i can't dry pink stuff outside at home (bloody nosey neighbours) so took some stuff to wash for us!