20 minutes of sobbing 'helps put baby to sleep'

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NURSES are advising parents to let infants cry for up to 20 minutes at a time to get them to sleep better.

Research by the Murdoch Children's Research Centre in Melbourne has shown that the controlled crying technique is successful with babies more than six months old.


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Would you let your baby cry? Tell us in the comments below
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Researchers assure parents it is safe - and it works.

But many other experts say it is dangerous and cruel.

Maternal and child health nurses around Victoria have been trained in the technique, among other forms of baby-settling measures.

In cases where they judge it appropriate, they will guide parents on how to use controlled crying.

The technique teaches babies to fall asleep by themselves. Parents are told to, at six months old, let them cry for two, four, six, eight, 10 and up to 20 minutes at a time, returning to comfort them briefly between each period.

Anna Price, PhD researcher at the Centre for Community Child Health at the Murdoch centre, said the aim was to teach babies to put themselves to sleep.

"Parents who use the technique have children who sleep better up to two years of age, but the effects are strongest at one year," she said.

"And mothers' depression symptoms were considerably reduced even two years later. There is no evidence of harmful effects."

But Cindy Davenport, from Safe Sleep Space and a maternal and child health nurse, advocates a more gentle approach.

"Often parents can't work with controlled crying - they don't like to listen to their babies cry," she said.

"I am quite surprised it has been given the stamp of approval - it doesn't sit very comfortably with parents."

Pinky McKay, one of Melbourne's leading baby sleep experts and author of Sleeping Like a Baby, said:

"It may indeed work; however, the trade-off could be an anxious, clingy or hyper-vigilant child or even worse, a child whose trust is broken."

The Australian Medical Association supports the Murdoch position. But the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health says controlled crying is "not consistent with what infants need for their optimal emotional and psychological health".

But Ms Price said parents could rely on the Murdoch study, involving 328 Melbourne mothers from 2003-05, which found there was no difference between the behaviour and emotions of children whose parents used controlled crying.

"Eighty-five per cent of parents who used it said their relationship with their child was better, and none said worse," she said.

LET THEM CRY

ASHLEY Thonemann realised it was time to change her routine when baby Bailey, eight months, refused to go to sleep without being rocked or being given a bottle.

The family were exhausted, and decided to try controlled crying.

"We only did it for a little while and it worked," Ms Thonemann said.

She said that at first it had not been easy using controlled crying.

"It does feel really mean," she said. "But it's worked well and now he'll only cry for a couple of minutes at the most before he goes to sleep."

NO CRYING

KAT Song Son has tried leaving son Jayden to cry, but has not had much success with the technique.

"It depends on what I'm doing. Sometimes I'll leave him for a couple of minutes," Ms Song Son said.

"But he just doesn't stop crying by himself."

Ms Song Son said she believed all babies were different.

She said she and her husband had tried leaving their son to cry, but Jayden would cry until he made himself sick.

"I'm sure it works for some people, but it doesn't work for him," she said

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:o

When my kids were 6 months I would try the 'let them cry themselves to sleep' but listening to them cry often made me so stressed out and anxious I would cry! For me, I found cuddling/rocking/feeding to sleep worked for me and my babies. As they say in the article, all babies are different. Different techniques will work for different people and at different stages.

I think these people writing these stories need to be careful incase it affects an already vulnerable mother.

^ I'm with you on that one, different situations for different mums and bubs - I don't like articles that word things in a way that could be misconstrued as suggesting that *everybody* MUST do it this way, instead of allowing for individual people and circumstances.

I did read an article very shortly after DD was born that really confirmed (in my mind, anyway) that my methods were working and that I was doing the right thing for my individual situation (I didn't do a 'proper' controlled crying thing, just went by instinct, if DD's cries were just whingy ones I left her for a bit, if she was actually crying of course I would pick her up straight away). I can't find the link to it now, but the gist of it was that babies are just the same as us in that they get stressed, overtired and need a vent after a long, hard day - and that constantly 'shushing' them when they cry can be detrimental because they need to learn right from birth how to express their negative emotions in a healthy way, instead of bottling everything up - we all know as adults how important it is to have a cry when we're down, how important 'alone time' or a big *****ing session to our best mate or a chocolate binge after a hard day at work is... and babies need the same thing, but obviously they can only cry to vent their frustrations.
So, I would often allow DD to just lay next to me and have a bit of a sook if we'd had a busy day, when feeds, cuddles and other things weren't working I assumed she was just letting it all out and she would often get her tears out of the way and either fall asleep or be back to her smiling self very soon. Not that I left her alone in a room bawling for hours or anything, I was always with her, but I didn't try to comfort her other than putting an arm around her and letting her know that mummy was there for her, kwim??


But again, reporters need to be very careful about how they word their arguments and research for fear of someone who isn't as confident a parent as others taking it to heart and doing more harm than good.

Ergh, how depressing :(

I could only let DD1 cry herself to sleep IF I was cuddling her. In that case I was trying to get her to drop her night feed and although she was crying I was cuddling and soothing her without the feed - fortunately it lasted only a couple of nights before she stopped waking BUT even doing it that way was not pleasant and I was also teary. I don't think I could ever let my babies cry alone for that length of time and not provide comfort :(

This was on the Today show this morning and caused arguments in my house already, LOL. Why do some people believe everything they see on TV because its said by a so called "expert"? DH believes in CC....and I don't...lucky I am the one who has to deal with the baby then, huh?
Its hard when every time Jack wont sleep DH just turns around and says "let him cry"...makes me more determined to be gentle, HAHAHA.
I do let Jack have a whinge (as GothMum said sometimes a whinge can help them wind down) but I will NOT let him cry, I don't care what DH thinks about it!!!

I saw this on the Today show too. I was slightly annoyed by the doctor's comments that babies can start 'manipulating' us from birth. Sure. And if we give in to them they will grow up to be 'self absorbed'. Hmmmm.

I don't know why they bother quoting doctors and the AMA...I think a cross section of pyschologists, child and adult, would be more appropriate! Doctors aren't the ones who study cortisol and adrenalin levels related to stress in kids and adults :rolleyes:
Also, manipulation and self-absorption are tendencies of kids whose needs are NOT met, who are 'punished' and 'rewarded', NOT of kids who are unconditionally loved and their needs respected and met.
But, this is what parents want to hear - they want to hear that life can go back to normal for them (and thus remain in denial that they ever had kids)...ARGH!

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I was slightly annoyed by the doctor's comments that babies can start 'manipulating' us from birth. Sure. And if we give in to them they will grow up to be 'self absorbed'. Hmmmm.

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That kind of stuff bothers me, too. What, so there is absolutely no way on earth a bad habit or behaviour pattern can be broken once a child gets away with it a few times?? God, I'm in big trouble then lol :) It's a moot argument, imo - there are always ways to establish new patterns and behaviours - not every little thing you allow your child to do is going to affect them long-term, kwim??

IMO there is no such thing as "controlled crying" - if they are crying you are not controlling the situation!!! :wall:

This is the most critical stage for a child to develop empathy - leaving them to cry/scream (IMO!!) is more likely to result in a psychopathic adult!!

"ASHLEY Thonemann realised it was time to change her routine when baby Bailey, eight months, refused to go to sleep without being rocked or being given a bottle...The family were exhausted, and decided to try controlled crying."

It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to work out that these are not the only two alternatives.

""Eighty-five per cent of parents who used it said their relationship with their child was better, and none said worse," she said."

To quote a well worn phrase - well, they would say that, wouldn't they? It's still a logical fallacy - they may be relating to their child better because they are getting more sleep. But who knows what the outcome would have been if they had achieved that result in a different way? Again, there is more than one answer to disrupted sleeping habits than "controlled" crying.

I don't even let my five year old cry for twenty minutes without offering comfort, no matter what the cause of the crying is. And if I am crying and no-one in my family pays attention, I find it absolutely devastating, regardless of how justified or otherwise my tears are.

With DD I had no choice but to let her cry herself to sleep otherwise she wouldn't sleep but would still be crying nonstop anyway. - she would originally cry for at least 20-30mins, in the end there was no crying just sleep. But she was a dreadful crier - if she was awake she was crying. She had dreadful reflux and nothing else would work, she would usually wake up happy. That is not to say I never comforted her, but if nothing was working and it was a choice between her crying herself to sleep or me holding her whilst she still screamed her lungs out and going quietly insane, well it wasn't much of a choice...

With DS, he rarely ever cried - so when he did there was no way I would just leave him to cry it out - he needed comfort, and would calm down when he received it.

With this third one, it will depend on what works best.

I guess my point is "horses for courses". What works for one baby will not work for another.

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I could only let DD1 cry herself to sleep IF I was cuddling her. In that case I was trying to get her to drop her night feed and although she was crying I was cuddling and soothing her without the feed - fortunately it lasted only a couple of nights before she stopped waking BUT even doing it that way was not pleasant and I was also teary. I don't think I could ever let my babies cry alone for that length of time and not provide comfort :(

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Totally agree here. All of mine I have done this with. They go to sleep after crying but I am ALWAYS cuddling them while they are crying. I personally don't believe in CC, I tried it and it resulted in clinginess and I felt like it broke trust. Babies are babies for goodness sake!! It's their right to expect comfort when they are upset!!

My SIL has done this method for sometime now ... even allowing for her son to cry & scream for up to 30mins ... Too be honest i have never seen it work as her son ends up hysterical & with short of breath ... and then shes goes in to get him & she starts the same procedure all over again :rolleyes:

Maybe she continues to use this method as 'maybe' ?? it's worked for her at some point ?? :rolleyes:

I personally couldn't witness my DD get so emotionally & physically stressed ... When she was a baby i would chose to cuddle her if she was crying until she slept (but then that's just me & that's my choice ... and not to mention she had painful colic pains ) ;)

Hmm, must have the conversation with my DS that 20 minutes of crying will help him sleep better. Nothing more, nothing less. Yeah right. I have the opposite - if my DS is crying himself to sleep, even if he does drop off after a few minutes, guaranteed he will be awake again at the end of the first sleep cycle. If he goes to bed happily, I'm much more likely to get a good nights sleep. That sounds like I do CC - I don't at all, but now that he's developing his toddler independence, if he's really messing around at bedtime I pop him into bed to think about what he wants - sleep or milk...Can't think of a time when milk wasn't the winner :)

. Yes it was hard to her him cry and not go in or rock him to sleep in my arms, but he was getting to old for rocking to sleep. U can tell the difference bewteen cryign and having a whinge, if he was really crying to the point he was gunna be sick we'd go in and calm him down Now we r up to the point were he only have to sit for a few mins he is asleep. THese so called experts obviously dont have children

I suppose every child is different and whatever works best for the child and parents is the go.

*begin sarcasm*
Well, yeah of course. The poor cherubs exahust themselves that they fall asleep. Of course, in that 20 minutes the emotions they feel some terrible emotions, fear, abandonment, loss, danger, but hey, at least they fall asleep. The ends MUST justify the means, of course. Sleep is the ultimate goal of parenting.
*end sarcasm*

I think this is terrible. One day I turned the monitor on but accidentally switched it to the wrong frequency. Jazz was crying and I thought it was the child next door because the monitor was on and jazz wasn't crying. I bawled at the thought that she was in there thinking mummy had left her to cry :cry: I don't know how long she was crying for but I had this horrible lump in my throat. I couldn't imagine letting her do that on a daily basis! I'd prefer her to be awake and me tired, then have her cry herself to sleep... I have cried myself to sleep before. It's terrible.

I have left her to cry. When I am at my absolute wits end with her. I can count on my hand how many times. I personally can't justify letting her go through that range of emotions at an age when all they should feel is safe, loved, and cherished. Yes, it might seem to work for some people but at what cost? There needs to be more to support parents through tough sleep patches, so they don't need to resort to (un)controlled crying.

JMO.

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"ASHLEY Thonemann realised it was time to change her routine when baby Bailey, eight months, refused to go to sleep without being rocked or being given a bottle...The family were exhausted, and decided to try controlled crying."

It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to work out that these are not the only two alternatives.

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So true, our 3 year old currently gets sung to or her daddy plays guitar for her until she falls asleep, our son gets patted to sleep. It only takes 15 minutes out of our day and both children fall asleep knowing mummy and daddy care for them and are always there for them. We had issues with DD waking up at night when she was ounger but we never left her to cry, if she did cry there was always someone there holding her until she calmed down.

I know that long-term sleep deprivation really knocks you areound but people have to be realistic, being a parent means that life will change a lot, including the amount of sleep you get, and if you don't want it to change then don't have kids. It's that simple.

^ I think it's a bit narrow-minded to say things like 'If you like your sleep, don't have a family'... every situation is different and what works great for some mums and bubs, doesn't work so well for others.
I'm sure everybody who has, or intends upon having, kids is well aware of the fact that they will lose a LOT of sleep - and that's fine, we're prepared for that, but there are so many circumstances in which an overtired parent can actually do more harm than good for their child.

Sleep deprivation has been repeatedly proven to cause, or exacerbate, physical and mental illness, and in extreme cases can lead to severe mental breakdowns or even death (again, I said 'extreme' cases). I'm not suggesting that we all leave our kids to sob themeslves to sleep every night, but I know that a lot of mothers have health issues, such as PND, which are adversely affected by a severe lack of sleep and happy mums = happy babies, so suggesting that a parent 'just put up with it' doesn't help.

I know that everybody's situation is different, but myself personally, well let's just say that if I don't get a decent night's sleep, DD is the one who suffers the next day because I simply cannot muster the energy to crack a smile, let alone run around in the backyard with her, read her endless storybooks, and interact with her on the level she deserves. I also find that if she wakes during the night, going to her and picking her up only tells her 'it's morning, playtime!!' and she refuses to go back to sleep - meaning I'm then up for hours, trying to keep DD quiet so as not to wake the rest of the household, and I don't catch up on that sleep during the day because I have housework to do. If I leave her to settle herself (which she usually does in less than three minutes), the house is soon quiet and everybody can continue sleeping uninterrupted. And the next day, I'm able to be the mother DD deserves - energetic, fun to be around, and much more patient and tolerant of the inevitable tantrums and mischief.
I do not feel that this in any way impacts on my relationship with DD - it's a trust issue. She knows that if it's important, I am there for her in seconds, but if she's woken up for 'no good reason', she has the coping skills to shrug it off and go back to sleep without my help. I'm not saying my way is any better than your way, but it works for us, whereas it might not work for you and your kids, the way your methods might not work for me and my kids, etc.

I also consider myself very lucky in that I have the support of my parents - if DD is having a bad few days and I'm at my wits' end I know that my parents will gladly take DD for the night and allow me to catch up on sleep and get my head together. Other women may not have that support, and it's not just they who suffer for it - it's their children as well.

Sorry for the long ramble, but yeah... sometimes things just aren't as simple and easy as, 'Suck it up, you big lug'.

firstly, I don't mean to be harsh and I agree different things work for different people but coming from a mum who is mourning the fact she isn't having any more babies I don't understand people who control cry - I don't mean people who sit with a crying baby - I agree sometimes kids need a cry to let out tension but I don't understand why you want a baby of 6mth to "learn to sleep by themselves" i just don't get it???? I LOVE snuggling up with my kids at bedtime - yes it's a pain when we are entertaining and i need to excuse myself to read to them and lie with them until they fall asleep but wow what a blissful time we have in there - in fact my hubby and I now argue over who gets to put the kids to sleep :-)

Not once have i ever had a problem with my kids coming out of their rooms, asking for water, procrastinating or hating going to bed, everyone loves bedtime it is such a gentle time to sit in the dark and be with each other after a busy day. When my babies were little I would rock or pat or cuddle or just sit with them, now they are too big so we lie down together until my youngest falls asleep. My eldest tells me he doesn't need me to stay anymore but I should stay until his sister falls asleep and if I need to get up for any reason he gets into bed with her and they snuggle together.

I know parents are busy and life is stressful especially when they are little but enjoy the blissful sleeping time because 10 yrs from now they won't need you to rock or cuddle them to sleep and you will miss it desperately. We only have them little for such a short amount of time, don't rush them to "grow up" or become "independant" too fast

PS - after attachemnt parenting both my kids I have to say in comparison to my nephews and nieces my two have less seperation anxiety, are less clingy and more independant - and sleep better :-)

Sorry for the rant JMO

you know...they are only our babies for such a short time.....before we know it...a blink of an eye and they are this little person who is quiet happy to go in their own bed and to sleep. Cherish the early days because that closeness that you feel with your child is only there for a little while....and once its gone...you'll only have the memories.

Id much prefer to give my baby a cuddle whilst they go to sleep rather then have them cry, scream and get over stressed before they exhaust themselves.

I am so sick and tired of 'experts' voicing that our children need to sleep better, do this better, do that better......are we expecting to much from them...they are just babies....they need to experience the world in an innoicent non violent way. Screaming a baby to sleep seems cruel in my eyes, not just for the baby but for the parents involved. Who need's the stress involved with it.

Live life people..love your baby with your arms and heart...not by shutting a door

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I am so sick and tired of 'experts' voicing that our children need to sleep better, do this better, do that better......are we expecting to much from them...they are just babies....they need to experience the world in an innoicent non violent way. Screaming a baby to sleep seems cruel in my eyes, not just for the baby but for the parents involved. Who need's the stress involved with it.

Live life people..love your baby with your arms and heart...not by shutting a door

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Agreed 100% :D

From Birth till he was too heavy to hold/ Didn't fit comfortably in my/DH's arms our DS was rocked/Feed/Sung to sleep. From here we moved to sitting on the recliner laying him down on our knees and swaying our legs until he was asleep..now he's to big for that... he goes into his cot and one of us holds his hand or sings, pat his bottom or rubs his back until he's nearly asleep and he goes off on his own now.

If he is tired and I put him down he 8/10 he goes off by himself nothing from me or DH is required and I honesty believe that is because he KNOWS if he needs us we come. there are occasions when we need to go in but hey....Thats my little boy!! If he needs me, he needs me simple as that.

So many people incl my parents have shot us down for doing this, and after so much critisism I tried CC once and felt physically sick...Just not something I can do plain and simple. but I'll never be bullied into anything just because "others" think it's what "has" to be done, or the "right" way.

I guess like many things when it comes to parenting though different strokes for different folks.

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There needs to be more to support parents through tough sleep patches, so they don't need to resort to (un)controlled crying.
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This is the heart of the matter!!! This is what we need MCHN to know! My dd didn't sleep for the first 15mths of her life - it was hard but we made it through. We were given no helpful advice from medical professionals except controlled crying variations and giving her phenurgan to sedate her?????

What ended up helping was an elimination diet - sleep problems solved no controlled crying needed

I can't say I agree with controlled crying in most circumstances, and certainly not from birth. That said, we have a client who has recently been having lots of problems with an unsettled baby, poor feeding, a diminishing milk supply, and a baby who was losing weight. We went down a lot of other paths first - attachment parenting, baby wearing, but she just wasn't coping. She was a single mum, and despite the support of her family, she was having lots of trouble and was very used to a routine.

In the end, we decided to try controlled crying with her four month old. Within 24 hours he was sleeping and feeding for longer periods; within 48 hours, he was sleeping really well, and feeding really well. Within the week, she was feeling 100% better, her milk supply was noticably improved, and bub was gaining weight. And that is the second time I have seen it work.

I think we need to be careful not to demonise it. I don't believe for a minute that babies can be manipulative, although I do think that mothers and babies can develop bad parenting habits that become entrenched and lead to sleep and settling problems. When managed sensitively and appropriately, it can be a good option for some mums and babies. And there is certainly a big difference between carefully managed controlled crying and the kind of baby abandonment espoused by Truby King devotees...

We "kind of" used controlled crying with Molly, although not with Olivia - we just knew from her personality that she would not benefit from us, she was a very attached baby and remains so today.

I don't think it is a bad thing that MCHN have an understanding of it, the ramifications of it, and an understanding of how to do it properly and safely, although I do hope that they are sensitive and careful in who they offer it too, and how it is taught.

Never going to happen.

Last time I let some stupid MCHN talk me into "controlled crying", Angie was still sobbing as she slept! That to me was so very wrong and could not possibly have been healthy on a mental level.

IMO, if someone doesn't want to be woken up by a crying baby - don't have a baby. They eat, sleep, poop and cry. That much is not a national secret.

Find out what "controlled crying" actually is before commenting. It's a bad name for it and the right way should be described as controlled "comforting". Don't knock something that you don't know about fully. The media love to put a spin on things -kids are not supposed to be left for 20 mins at a time etc.
Done correctly, it can have a very positive outcome for all. And mostly the bubs. But don't ever try before 6 months of age. It will have no effect other than stressing you and eveyone out.

But, as someone said in an earlier post, horses for courses - one thing doesn't suit everyone.

All the best to you,

Deb

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Find out what "controlled crying" actually is before commenting. It's a bad name for it and the right way should be described as controlled "comforting". Don't knock something that you don't know about fully. The media love to put a spin on things -kids are not supposed to be left for 20 mins at a time etc.
Done correctly, it can have a very positive outcome for all. And mostly the bubs. But don't ever try before 6 months of age. It will have no effect other than stressing you and eveyone out.

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Whether it's called controlled comforting or controlled crying, I think we're all pretty au fait with the method whether we agree with it or not - it involves ever longer periods of allowing a baby to cry, and to teach themselves to settle. I think most of us know about controlled crying (or comforting, if you prefer) from more than the one source cited here.

I'm interested in the "don't do this before 6 months" idea. We all know babies mature at different rates... What's the cognitive change at 6 months, particularly, that makes controlled crying/comforting acceptable from a developmental point of view?

You are also assuming some kind of standard that professionals use to define what is acceptable and what's not. Believe me, after having five children, I've heard every permutation of controlled crying (or comforting) come out of professionals' mouths, from letting a baby cry but never leaving its side (patting its back, etc), to letting it cry for as long as it takes. I've seen women berated in mother/baby units for not wanting their child to cry until it vomits all over its sheets, for up to half an hour or even more.

I got to the point of letting my DD cry herself to sleep when she was about 9 months old - she had been teething and all her good sleep patterns had gone and I was completely exhausted (I read earlier it doesn't take imagination to do something different, but I didn't have any other info and I saw one of those 'baby whisperer' interview with their magic fix and I was feeling desperate). It did absolutely no good at all. She would scream and try to climb back up my arm as I put her down in the cot to sleep. She became terrified of her own bed. We started rocking her to sleep again after only 2 days of trying cc but she would sleep with one eye open and wake the second she was put down and start her terrified screaming again. She would eventually settle but as soon as we opened the door to leave the room it would start again. It was a nightmare. Eventually we went back to using the Tweedle method (which we had used when she was very young) and sitting next to her bed and patting her to sleep. It took 2 months to reverse the damage of 2 days.

The other thing we found it that if she ever did fall asleep while crying, she would wake herself up again with sobbing. It was horrible.

We have tried nothing of the sort with DS and had no real sleep issues with him. I also think that I have adjusted to being a parent a little better now that I had when I had my first baby.

Maz spot on hun Well said!

WE must trust our instincts not go aginst them! I have heard of mums having to be restrained while letting there child cry! that doesnt sit right with me!

Pinky got it right with her comment in the article!

Lets love and cherish our beautiful babies each and evry day! I know its hard when they dont sleep or go to sleep when we want them too! But I have cried myslef to sleep and its not nice!

We are going through a stage now of DS not sleeping well and its hard but I could never let him cry for 20 mins! Lots of love cuddles and gentleness and he falls asleep eventually, yep I may have missed something I wanted to watch on TV or precious time on BB but I know my baby fell alseep feeling secure!

But we all must make our own descisions and we do the very best we can!