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I couldn't agree more Bailey, Kate shouldn't have been put in that position. If she wanted to talk about her experience, it should have been here choice, not a result of being put in a particular circumstance.
Anyway, I have a headache so, over and out to this thread for me.
Lv Spring
Hey there,
Firstly I have to admit I am a massive BB fan... or should I say was :angry:
I knew about Kate having her baby from another thread but I had no idea the producers knew this prior. Why would they be so cruel as to set her this task? Could they not have warned her this was going to happen instead of just springing it on her on national television? Are you telling me they dont have all these tasks and things prepared well in advance and give her the option of pulling out, or even just mentally preparing herself for the situation? There were plenty of other tasks they could have given the housemates, it is a bit of a coincidence that the first task (well apart from the couple) happened to be this one. For sure they knew what they were doing, they know all their little twists and turns along time before the people go on the show! Has anyone seen the movie The Truman Show? The only difference between it and BB is that in the movie he isnt aware that he is in the reality show, but everything that happens is predetermined.
OK fair enough, maybe Kate did say she had "dealt" with her loss - I lost Nicholas 8 months ago tomorrow (today actually, its after midnight) and I have my days where I think I am "ok" and all it takes is for me to see a pregnant woman walking down the street, or even worse a little baby, and I am thrown right back into my reality which is heartbreak and pain. The one thing that hasnt been mentioned is she lost her child only 18 MONTH AGO! OMG we are hardly talking a lifetime - its not even 2 years! Losing a child is not something you "get over". Admittedly you learn to live with it, but what else are you gonna do? There is no choice but to live with it. Has anyone thought about the fact that maybe Kate hasnt "dealt" with the loss of her baby at all? The fact that she has applied to go on a reality TV show and told everyone she is fine about it screams to me that she is not. Dont forget that grief has stages and one of those stages is denial, and if there is a book with guidelines as to timeframes for these phases I certainly havent found it. I tell people I am ok all the time and that things are getting better, in fact things arent getting better at all, quite the opposite. But I always feel like it is expected that I am "getting better" so pretend to be, sometimes I even manage to fool myself. I was always under the impression that housemates undergo extensive psychological examinations before they are even shortlisted for the house and go through even more before they get in, for their own safety and for the other housemates safety. There is no way experienced psychologists, whether they have experience with such grief or not, could think that Kate could be ok to be on the show. I believe they have totally disregarded their duty of care towards her and I hope her mum gets a s@@@load of money to go to charity on her behalf.
I do not think that losing a parent can even be compared with the loss of a child - a parent should never have to bury their child, no matter how long they lived for. I wonder has anyone who has had this thought sat down and wondered what it might feel like? How do they think it feels knowing that had our babies been born just 1 day earlier they would be with us now and we would be doing all of the things the other mothers get to do? How do they think it feels giving birth to your child and having complete silence at the end, all that can be heard is the pain of the mother crying for the child she has lost? To not have that baby look at up at you for the very first time and know that they recongnise your voice? Have they thought about what it must be like to look into the beautiful, perfect little face that you created and know that you will never get to watch them grow? I think anyone who thinks that an unborn baby never had a life is totally ignorant to the realities of pregnancy and motherhood. Anyone who does think this might like to read the poem that Rach posted in the Mother's Day thread that Lynn started.
I am sorry if I seem a bit emotional on this subject but I struggle alot lately with how unsympathetic, inconsiderate and downright heartless people can be to parents of a stillborn baby - the BB producers have just confirmed this fact to me by the way they have totally disregarded Kate's feelings.
I believe BB producers have done this deliberately to create publicity and drama which is exactly what they have achieved - front page of the paper has surely got to boost their rating slightly. Congratulations to them, they did it at the expense of Kate. I do hope that Kate benefits in some way from this to make her future a little easier than her past has been.
Before I go I do agree with Spring and Bailey that it is great if it gets people to talk about it, admittedly I havent experienced anymore openess as yet but then I havent told the place I am working about Nicholas. How nice would it be if all of a sudden society changed and we could talk openly about our feelings without making other "uncomfortable"? Although unfortunately I do believe that the openess will last as long as the drama and that is not long at all - unfortunately the nature of the beast is to bury its head in the sand.
Sorry for long vent but its a touchy subject, especially when lately I have been consumed by frustration towards insensitive people :doh:
Just want to clarify that I don't compare losing a parent to losing a baby, and I also never compared any loss to the tacky task that they assigned. I was simply stating that there are other tragedies in peoples lives too, and was replying to the comment about them airing the show with her 'story' and that anyone going on such a show must expect things to come up at some stage.
Yes that's a good point. I agree.:
As for insenstive comments.. well, there's been a few right here about the loss of a parent. I'm sorry if it's not as 'tragic' as other losses, but if someone loses 3 members of their family in a car accident and another only loses 1, does that give the first one the right to make insensitive comments to the one that lost only 1 coz it's not as 'tragic'??
That is so awful :(
Ok lets not start an argument. Lets not make this thread about who's loss is worse. Loss is loss, and I'm sure its painful for anyone who has been through it. Please lets not make this personal. Its a very sad situation.
*hugs*
Cailin
Liz, the loss of a parent is tragic and I am sorry that you have felt insensitive statements have been made.
This is a very emotive topic. Many of the women commenting have delivered a dead baby. I have lost very close people also and that is a tragedy. The pain I have felt at the loss of my babies was very different for me. I *think* this is what people are trying to get across - however I can't speak for others of course.
Had Big Brother reenacted the death of a parent in a car accident when they were aware a particular BB participant had endured such a tragedy then that would be equally appalling.
However, the issue is the death of a child. However way we turn it around to lose a child is something incredibly huge and the assumption that "you get over it" couldn't be further from the truth. It doesn't even really fade. It's always theere. The smells, the feelings, the sounds. This is the same with any death - again though the issue here is the death before birth of a baby.
I agree with other posters that if there is anything positive to come out of this hideous act then it is perhaps that the public become a little more educated about stillbirth and perhaps miscarriage. It happens every day. It happens to ordinary people and it hurts like hell. :grouphug:
The thing I was thinking is that BB wouldn't have put someone into the house knowing they had lost a loved one to drowning in a pool because there is a pool in the house etc... yet, they would put a woman in who had lost a child, and then set up a task to make her look after a fake baby!? That is just sick.
Very well said Caro
:hug:
Just to clarify - I wasnt trying to take away from anyone who has suffered a loss and certainly was not trying to start an argument. Everyone else got to have their say and I was simply having my say as well - but I dont think it can be held against me for being upset over it. This has brought up alot of emotions for me about how people treat me.
Bascially, I am saying that until you have a stillborn baby you just cant possibly understand the pain and therefore cannot compare. I have lost quite a few very close loved ones in my time, in particular in the last couple of years, I think most adult people have, but I can quite honestly say that I have never felt the pain I feel over Nicholas. I truly believe that people are not "afraid" of you when you lose a parent or other relative, they dont look uncomfortable when you walk in the room, they dont avoid speaking to you. I on the other hand have found that people do seem to be "afraid" of me, apart from my family and a couple of close friends most people I know act like I was never pregnant, they have never even acknowledged to me I have had a baby, and I know alot of the other ladies here have experienced the same thing. I try to talk about Nicholas and people change the subject because its "too hard" for them. I do believe that society makes the loss of a baby who was stillborn much greater than the loss of another loved one, and until you have experienced such a loss you will never agree or understand.
The main reason I made that comment is because it was mentiond about Ben from BB talking about the death of his mother, and not only that being left reponsible for his little brother. I totally agree with what Deb said, had his parents death been re-enacted in the house forcing him to talk about it I would be just as angry as I am about Kate. The fact remains Ben chose to talk about his mother and was open about it. Kate's choice was taken away from her.
Lets not forget the psychological trauma that comes with having a stillborn baby, we have all of the post baby issues including a body that we feel self conscious about, post natal depression, approx. 6 weeks of bleeding, hormones all over the place, but we dont have the baby to make it all worthwhile. The memories of giving birth for us are traumatic, those happy memories that people have of delivering their child and holding them in their arms, reverse those around and I guarantee you it is hard to live with. I do not believe that the psychological trauma is the same for the loss of another relative - that is all I am trying to say, I am not saying people are not entitled to grieve and I know noone ever "gets over" the loss of a loved one.
But at the end of the day - I agree with you Caro - Its definitely time to go Big Brother!
Caro - Please dont think what I have said above is at all trivialising the death of your mother, I saw my aunty deteriorate over a long period from lung cancer and brain mets and it was awful so I cant imagine what it would be like to watch my mother go through that. I totally agree grief is grief and to the person experiencing it, it is all consuming and something which you will never get over.
Just one more thing re insensitive comments being made - This thread has been posted under the TTC after Late Loss ~ Recurrent Miscarriage ~ Stillbirth forum. No-one is trying to be insensitive about the loss of a parent or taking away from the tragedy of it, if there were a Loss of a Parent forum I would not go in there and compare my loss, therefore I dont think the opposite should be done in this forum.
I'm sorry. This thread was not started to compare loses. Any loss is heartbreaking and tragic and should not be compared. The main reason I started this thread is because I wanted to express my views on how people are treated. To be honest I was going to post this in the TV thread but decided to post in the TTC thread because I knew that my views could be shared amongst people that had experienced a similar loss to Kate. In saying that I know that any thread that is started can be viewed and replied to. All comments are welcome here but I really don't want it to cause arguments.
- Deb I agree and this is my point. I think somewhere along the way here the point has been missed. My anger is about how people are treated.:
Had Big Brother reenacted the death of a parent in a car accident when they were aware a particular BB participant had endured such a tragedy then that would be equally appalling.
Well - like I said earlier, I -wasn't- comparing the losses, I agree, they can't be compared, it was just something I said with regards to people's stories being aired on tv. But the 'vibe' that comes across is 'sorry - that doesn't count, it's not as bad as MY loss', so I just feel that the insensitive comments go both ways, that's all, and that's regardless of where it's posted.
Even similar losses can't be compared, the best anyone can ever do is empathise. And if personal experiences can't be drawn upon in order to empathise, well then everyone will continue to feel isolated because everyone will continue to believe that "no-one understands".
Ok I don't want to sound like a nag. But can we please move on from comparisons now?
We can all be understanding of each other and from what I can see we all are.
Lets now stick to the original topic please.
*hugs*
Cailin
I have to reiterate what Cailin has asked.
This thread is in the Miscarriage and Loss thread so let's stay on task.
It was a very good point made by Mel.
Again, all grief is sad this particular issue has it's own particular intracacies.
Thank you for understanding Caro :)
OK well I am going to get it back on track and say that I think it is very unlikely they will axe the show - hopefully we can all make a difference by sending our letters and getting it taken off the air after this season - but if it has to go on can I just say that I hope Kate takes it out and wins a whole heap of money? I know there is technically no prize money this year but they have already added 50K to the kitty and I think it could be something that would make a difference to her life and hopefully give her something great to focus on. Just as I was really happy that Ben won the year he was on, I bet it made life alot easier for him and his bro.
GO KATE!
Sorry to hijack but... Deb - this thread has reminded me, did you get the email I sent to you the other day?
Well, I emailed Helen Coonan with regard to Big Brother and today got a response that I thought I would share. The letter is long and that is because it is all about codes of practice. I won't bore you with that but will transcribe a small part of the letter:
"I am aware that the most recent series has aroused public concern at the apparent insensitive treatment of a woman who had recently miscarried being required to care for a computerised baby doll."
"The minister has placed Channel 10 on notice that she and the independent regulator ACMA are watching the conduct of the network closely. Whilst channel 10's insensitive programming decisions do not breach it's licence conditions or the Code, the decisions are considereed by the Government to be in breach of the spirit of the Code. The Government expects that Channel 10 will comply with all of its obligations and the undertakings it has given following previous investigations into content appearing on earlier Big Brother programs."
So, it's not much of a response. But at least they had to read how this kind of thing affects the public. The fact that they termed Miscarriage instead of still birth has prompted me to further email. The powers that be need to realise that this type of thing is abhorrent and they also need to get the terminology right!
Well I am glad that you got a response but you are right, it doesn't say much.
I can't believe they are still confusing the terms. I hope they listen to your reply and get the correct terminology.
Good on you Deb
Lv Spring