Religion

What a fascinating read!! I wonder if once we have children or want to concieve children we start looking deeper into spirituality. I have been reading a book about raising the spiritual child and it's beautiful as children are fundementally spiritual creatures. They are like blank slates and as mothers (or parents) I think we all want whats best for them including establishing some faith in something in them. I have looked at your posts about what you mean to do about telling children about faith. I love the idea of showing them. Lead by example if you like. There is a passage in the old testament of the Bible, where Joshua (a leader of the Children of Isreal) asks the people to decide what way they want to follow, and Joshua says " As for me and my house we will serve the Lord". Faith and our beliefs can be a family affair I think, and we all can learn from each other - child from parent, parent from child. Like the relationship between God and his(spiritual) children. Anyway thats my idea and I think it makes me a better parent, at least heaving the right desires for my children and parent them like I would have and believe my God would parent me.

Hiya Oie and Saltprincess :) Enjoyed reading your posts and I'm glad you've joined in. Oie: yes! it was in having children that I really became motivated to understand more about spirituality and the world's religions. Having children also has really given me insight as to why it is so often said we are God's children. The relationship between us and Him (I see God as gender neutral BTW) has so many analogies between us and our parents/children. Before I had kids I guess i never really understood the nature of 'unconditional' love as it seemed to me that the love of my own parents was conditional (our relationship is not that great).... I just found it hard to believe that anyone would love me for who i am, no matter what. Of course now that I have kids i finally understand. I also understand now the frustration of trying to tell your kids to "do the right thing because...." Good grief it is hard. Your child wants to do this and that and you are always saying "no... please don't..." (and thinking to yourself "Oh why don't they simply TRUST me that I know what is right and can see around corners!!!!????) To me God must feel this frustration too every day....

gotta fetch crying baby... I'll add to this later...

Great we're going again!

Just a quick correction first: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God" is from the Gospel of John.

Salt, nice to see a friendly athiest! I don't think athiests are less moral (I actually think some ofthose American-style travelling preachers who gain many earthly rewards are very immoral) than others, but it's trying to find your own boundaries rather than proscribed ones. I admire people who actively do that rather than just drift along.

Hi Oie and Salt!

Great to have more people joining in. Salt i was interested in what you said about Celtic Paganism? Can you tell me more about what you mean (Celtic Civ degree boffin lol)?

I agree that ritual can be so important in life - it helps us to know where we are in the year and in oursleves i think.

Bx

Thanks Salt, just thought I'd let you know that I don't have any negative thoughts towards athiests. I think to be an athiest you have thought about the whole spirituality concept and evaluated how you feel/think on the issue and reach the conclusion that fits you best. (that is a general you, not a salt princess you, iykwim). Anyway just trying to say I can understand how some people don't have spiritual beliefs and that just because they don't doesn't make them any less of a valued member of our society as a whole. Having some sort of spiritual belief doesn't mean that someone is a better person than those who don't have such beliefs.. they are just different. We need different people in the world for many reasons and I support anyone whatever they choose to believe or not.

I also agree with Salt that the tradition/ritual is a big draw card of religion. Just because you don't have religion doesn't mean you can't have those traditions. Christmas and Easter have taken on secular characteristics but the parrallels between the christian and pagan significance behind these times are things that can be shared by all of us. The family aspect of christmas is beautiful and why should someone who doesn't subscribe to god and religion not celebrate such a time? Go for it I say.

Yep, I'm a christmas carol junkie... start playing my christmas cd's in October.. need to get as much mileage out of them as possible... just love them so much.

Oie... I do think having a child does prompt some analysis of our beliefs. I also think significant events in our lives can be an impetus. Teen angst and discust with many things in the world turned me away from religion. Then some negative events didn't help. I had started re-exploring my faith in the early naughties and for me september 11 was the start of my going back to the church... I needed something to help me understand it or more come to terms with it. What really bought me back to the church was my first miscarriage. At the time I felt ingredibly alone, especially as I had not told others of my pg and felt silly telling them about it then saying I had lost my child, I felt that there was no point giving anyone else such a negative thing to deal with especially seeing as I hadn't told them in the first place. So for me going to church each week was like therapy. I'm sure there were some people in my congregation who thought I was mad as I would spend all or part of the mass just crying (silently) but inside i wasn't sad... I was starting to feel happy and better.

OFF TRACK but need to put this out there: OK I think I have said before I still have some issues with my church (catholic). When I was with my DD's father I went to confession to discuss issues I was having with my faith and my concience... anyway I knew I had to leave her dad but felt that I couldn't as it is not condoned by the church.. basically the preist told me I had made the decision to be in a realtionship with him and that I had to just put up with it... this made leaving even harder as I felt obliged to stay because of what the priest had said. Anyway I went see a different priest on the other side of town and discussed my situation with him... the very first thing he said was "what sort of an example are you giving your DD... do you want to teach her that this is how woman should live and be treated. Are you safe? Is she safe? Answer those questions for yourself and you will know what you should do and G-d will be happy with your decision regardless of what the other priest has said. G-d does not want you in danger (physically, mentally or spiritually) and he does not want your DD in danger, or to think that that is what a woman should accept". In some ways I still feel guilty (for catechismic reasons) for kicking out B's dad even though my priest basically told me it was ok. I was just wondering if other religions / belief structures advise women to grin and bare an abusive realtionship (physical/mental/both) or if its just and anti divorce catholic thing.

It is so true... about not having the support of your church community. I have been travelling 20-30mins to go to churches in different areas because some of the parishoners and priests in my area are very judgemental. Its sad that any religious leader (whatever his/her flavour) would think it acceptable to advise someone to stay in such a situation. I mean no religion would expect you to stay in a business where your partner was abusive or work for an employer who beat you if they weren't satisfied with your results (not saying this happened to me, just drawing an example) so why would they condone, nay actively encourage staying in a marriage/relationship like this?

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I was just wondering if other religions / belief structures advise women to grin and bare an abusive realtionship (physical/mental/both) or if its just and anti divorce catholic thing.

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In Islam a woman can divorce her husband for failing to give her sexual satisfaction. As a minimum a man is required to have intercourse with his wife once every 4 days (if she wants it - more than that is ok too lol) and The Quran and hadith are quite specific about the need for foreplay (a man should send messages of lurve first). The is a Hadith (saying or action of the Prophet pbuh) that says paradise is under the feet of the mothers. Unfortunately there are men who forget that thier wives are mothers and that respecting them is an explicit requirement in Islam and far too many Sheiks who tell women to be patient when they should be berating thier husbands. I think those men should have the hairs in thier beards pulled out one by one.

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Ok, found what I was going to ask:

So Muslims believe it was actually Ishmael? Can someone tell me how this story is written differently in the Quran (sp?) to portray the different beliefs (i.e. which child was actually the child of promise). Interested to know what it says differently. Thanks guys!

And found this from Niass too that would be interesting to know I reckon:

um, I have another question about Islam... I was driving around earlier thinking about this thread and and wondered how is the begining of the earth told. Like in the bible and Genesis starts with "in the begining was the word and the word was ..." and then continues to tell us about the creation of earth and animals etc and then adam and eve and the tree of knowledge etc...is it similar or the same or completly different?


When I looked back through the posts I also found this:

It does state in the Bible that the Qu'arn was given to Mohammed... again, I need to look up where exactly. But I can't believe that God would give His people so many different religions and then expect us to pick which was divine - they all are.

Is this true? Anyone know? I have never read it....would be interesting to see...

ETA: sorry if anyone has answered these and I've missed it, this thread is getting pretty long lol.

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It might take me a while to answer all these questions but I'll try to do it tonight :)

In regards to Ishamel in The Quran, The Quran is a rather differant text to the Bible. It's not laid out in chronological order and there are many parts that make referance to preceeding texts rather than repeating the stories. I geuss that it is assumed knowledge because The Quran was revealed in a time and place when many people were conversant with Christain and Jewish theology. The belief the the child that Abraham was asked to sacrifice is a scholarly one rather than a revealed one.
The Quran has many passages that make referance to assumed knowledge and draws upon this assumed knowledge to make moral points etc. For this reason there are many works of exegesis (the Arabic word is tafsir) and most good English translations of the meaning of The Quran include extensive notes.

In regards to creation in Islam, we believe that the universe was created in 6 days however these 6 days are allegorical (although I think some believe them to be literal), I believe that there is also a differance of opinion in the order in which things were created. I believe that Genesis states that Allah created light first while The Quran says "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (which IMO is a fairly neat way of explaining the big bang) There is no set period of time that is regarded as a 'Quranic Day'. The verses referring to 6 days use youm, the Arabic word for day, but the term youm is used in The Quran to refer to a variety of differant periods of time so in The Quranic sense it might be better understood to mean a long period of time (an era or an eon)
I geuss that one significant differance is in our beliefs about the creation of Adam and Eve. We believe that Adam and Eve were both fashioned from clay/earth (once again some see this as long term and allegorical and some see it as literal) and that they shared the same soul instead of believing that Eve was made from Adam's rib (although I believe there is a minority view that holds that Eve was created from a rib). Also Adam and Eve were both equally responsible for eating the forbidden fruit but they were forgiven by Allah/G-d. The concept of original sin is rejected by Islam.
We also reject the idea that Allah/G-d needed a rest on the 7th day and that Allah/G-d created us in his image.
Rather than being a narrative of creation the Quran is more about explaining the lessons to be learnt from contemplating creation and promping us to think about the order of things and who is behind it.

I've also heard that Jesus (pbuh) prophesised the coming of Mohammed (pbuh) but I'm not sure what verse it is. I could probably find out.

I hope that all makes sense. I can try to expand on anything that anyone doesn't understand.
I should end in the traditional Islamic way by explaining that all mistakes are my fault and all the good comes from Allah.

LOL Dach, I love the ending.... how beautiful is that saying!

Why is it that in so many religions women seem to have subservient roles?... our needs not being as significant as those of the males, nor our rights... OK so that's just thinking out loud and I am deviating from the purpose of this thread... BACK ON TRACK time...

I think the prophecies of Jesus pertaining to Mohammed are in interpretational thing... They feature in the book of John, predominantly chapters 14-17. Christians interpret these profecies to be about the coming of the Holy Spirt, which we believe to be the third arm of the holy trinity of god, who will dwell with us until Jesus returns at judgement. The other interpretation/translation is that it means the Spirit of Light, which I think is an Islamic term for Mohammed (please correct me if I am wrong Dach).

Dach, the Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were both present at the temptation and both knowingly ate... only the priests gloss over that (and our Curate - a bloke - actually asked if I had a Feminist's Bible when I made mention of this!). Most women are happy to realise it was just a "blame the woman" thing.

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I should end in the traditional Islamic way by explaining that all mistakes are my fault and all the good comes from Allah.

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I think the world would be a better place if we all thought like that!

I also believe it says in the Bible a woman can leave her abusive husband, but not re-marry (until the man dies). I cannot see anyone having a problem with a woman leaving an abusive relationship! It is madness to stay in such a situation. In many religions, women are seen as mothers, which previously was a lauded and respected role. Just modern society has it all wrong, IMHO.

Wow Dach, thanx for answering all my questions :redface:

Kerry...thanx for telling me where those chapters were! I don't see them as pointing to Mohummed though either. Jesus says in there 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' (I love that bit btw). So I reckon then it's pretty obvious he is saying he is the 'Messiah'. So then it doesn't really fit with the rest of the bible and prophecies about Jesus that he would say there's going to be another person coming to follow instead of him?? That's what I think anyway. Maybe taken out of context of the whole bible you could interpret it in another way, maybe that's how they got it, I don't know. Interesting though, thankyou.

I know somebody was asking about symbols used. I can't give you the wiccan ones (as I'm not wiccan) but I can give you pagan ones that I use.

The big one for me is the pentagram (5 pointed star within a circle) or pentacle (5 pointed star). The 5 points stand for the 5 elements, spirit, earth, air, water, fire. I use the pents inverted as well as the "right way up". The top point (for me) is spirit, so when I'm using it inverted it means that the earthly elements are paramount in the workings I'm doing.

As for items I use, see below. I don't always use items in ritual, I can pretty much do the whole thing wherever I am. In saying that I do like to have something I can use for the elements, even if it is a cup filled with water, a twig, a rock & a feather and a handful of salt.

Robes - I either do my rituals in a robe or skyclad (naked), you are all equal in front of the gods if you're all dressed the same (or naked). There is also a whole ritual aspect to getting ready for a ritual, dressing etc.

Athame - a blunted knife, associated with fire & the male aspect. I use my athame to mark out the circle, to cut a doorway into the circle if needed (like if somebody has to leave for a reason). A friend made my athame for me.

Sword - pretty much same as the athame - I've only used swords for a large scale ritual.

Chalice - associated with water & the female aspect. I have a gorgeous silver one that I picked up op shopping years ago.

Cauldron - also associated with water & the female, but can be used for fire. I used to use my cauldron to burn things in - I don't have one any more. So I use a ceramic bowl instead. I think DH is trying to hunt another cauldron down for me.

Wand - associated with air & the male aspect. Mine is very plain - actually it just looks like a branch of a tree (which is what it is).

Besom (broom) - I used to have an "old school" hand-made one until it got used to the point it fell apart. Now I just use my "outside" straw broom.

Censer - insense burner. I have a multitude of these around the house, for oil & for using charcoal blocks on them.

Actually you couldn't really tell in our house where my altars are (there are a few), because they blend in so well with other things. My family altar has pictures of my family, some crystals & rocks & a few small candelabra - so it looks like any other shelf. I have unusual things around the house, like a small vase with some feathers in it, or the candles used by my quarter callers at our wedding, or the candle used by my fire quarter which are used in ritual but don't look out of place.

Thanks Sharon... that was really interesting. I love that you are able to incorperate alters around your house but they are just a part of your house, iykwim... its like saying my spirituality is not just inside me but all around me and a part of every aspect of my world... which from my understanding of paganism (as limited as it is) pretty much sums it up your beliefs/religion. Is paganism a religion? Or do you prefer it to be called something else?


Moses and Isaiah professised the coming of Jesus, both Muslim and Christians believe this, although where Chrisitians believe Jesus is the Messiah, Muslims believe he was just a prophet that proceded Mohammed. Jewish people believe Moses and Isaiah prophesised the coming of a Mesiah but Jesus was not him and neither was Mohammed and both have got it wrong. The question is did Jesus and Isaiah prophesy the coming of Mohammed?

Basically Muslims believe that christians have confused the concept of "Spirit of Truth" (a Paraclete.. ergo advocatem comforter, helper, prophet?) with "Holy Spirit". Following is an extract from a website supporting this opinion:

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Quoted from an online source....
To understand the prophecies made by Jesus on the subject, one has to begin with the First Epistle of John, Chapter 2, Verse 1. Here, Jesus Christ is called a "Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate, Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The same term "Paraclete" is used by the apostle in his Gospel, in connection with a portentous prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before the end of his ministry upon this earth, for the coming of "another Paraclete". Prophet Moses also made a similar prophecy, before the end of his ministry, for the coming of his successor. Jesus Christ declared;

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)."

John 14:16

Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever". However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John.

These two verses by John clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking of the coming of "another male figure" like himself, some time in the future, after his departure. The passage quoted below also confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the "Paraclete" was for the coming of a "male figure", but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit". Here is an extract from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible Volume 29A:

"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, besides being a "Messiah" was also a prophet like Moses, by his own admission. Please see John 5:46 and 9:17. Hence to say that the coming of "another Paraclete" was similar to the coming of "another Prophet" like Jesus and Moses, would not be inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7

This verse clearly tells us that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit" was already present. It was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Genesis 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" happened to be present at River Jordan when Jesus Christ was being Baptised by John the Baptist, in the early part of his ministry. So, how could Jesus say; "but if I go, I will send Holy Spirit"?

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26

This above verse clears the confusion. The Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure, whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it".

"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

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Anyway it sort makes it a bit clearer than what I was trying to say. I wish I had the theology tocome up with a rebutal to this, just for the sake of some balance debate but my religious knowledge is more towards the ritual, practices and history of the church than the various interpretations and translations of the bible. Probably a catholic thing... pretty much we are just supposed to do whqt the preists tell us and not question anything.... not that many of us actually do that, hell I question everything.

The actual article is much longer but I don't think I can put a link in howver if you google the phrase:
jesus prophecies mohammed
it will be the second page found.

Thanks Schaz :) interesting. I hope some more members of non-Christian faiths can contribute (to this thread) as thoroughly!

Bumpity bump!

Hmm...maybe another question to get this thread going again?? I liked it!

Are you ever embarrassed about your faith. This is really awful and I feel guilty. It seems it's not 'cool' to be (in my case) Christian. So if someone asks if I am religious I find myself mumbling 'ah...yeah....i guess'. No one really talks about it and this thread has shown me that there are actually others like me out there! So...is the reason we don't talk about it because we're embarrassed like me?

shaz i had an interest in wicca as my mother is a white witch and a high priestess (solitary) the celtic symbols that you described are one and the same, most of which also used to feature in old catholic/christian rituals.

sarajane in my own experience in discussion with others i tend to steer clear of religious topics as they can all too easily be turned in to inflammatory arguments.
i was raised a catholic, i have been baptised, made my first reconciliation,been confirmed etc, i went to an all girls catholic school and attended mass.
i read the bible at 6 then again at 12 and the last time was when i was about 17.
my mother became a wiccan high priestess, she has an interest in all things oogly boogly (as some might say!)
her sister is still a practising catholic, her younger sister is a born again christian ( who has been told by her church that we are evil and she should not associate with us because we will lead her astray!!!)
i attended school with mormans, buddhists, born again christians, lutherans, pentecostals etc.
what it all came down too was they were my friends!
i am no longer a practising catholic, i would have been excomunicated by now anyways!
i tend to take all my own little bits and that is my faith.
Faith, no matter in what, god, jesus, the goddess, the sun the moon, buddha whichever is still faith,
i think thats the most important thing.

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Are you ever embarrassed about your faith.

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No, not at all.

I left the religion I was brought up with and have since been without religion and have now chosen which church I will attend and bring my children up in. As such, I feel like I have made an 'educated' choice and as an adult am fully aware of my reasons for both my faith and choice of religion. I feel like I've been on both sides of the fence.

For me, it would like being embarrassed because of my chosen profession. I figure not everyone will understand it or my reasons for it, but I am certain enough of my convictions to not doubt myself. I would rather answer questions of why I am a part of a religious group than avoid the issue altogether.

Hmm...maybe embarrassed is too strong a word. I don't think I'm embarrassed. But a bit awkward about it.
But I'm glad other people aren't!
And I think it's hard in my age group as well, that might be part of it, people aren't as religious any more, and it's not 'cool'.

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Thanks Sharon... that was really interesting. I love that you are able to incorperate alters around your house but they are just a part of your house, iykwim... its like saying my spirituality is not just inside me but all around me and a part of every aspect of my world... which from my understanding of paganism (as limited as it is) pretty much sums it up your beliefs/religion. Is paganism a religion? Or do you prefer it to be called something else?

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Paganism is actually a recognised religion in Australia, I do call myself pagan for want of a better word. Since my family heritage is more tribal I'm more a sorcerer but I do call myself a Sangomas (which is a zulu healer who works within both realms - earth bound & spirit).

In more basic terms I call myself a grey witch - I don't restrict myself to white (perceived as only good) and black (perceived as only bad) magic as I believe there needs to be a balance in everything, which is why I worship both the God and the Goddess forms, the male/female.

Witches & wiccans have a "law" which is If it harm none, do what thou will, the coven that I used to work with took this and changed it to If it harms no innocents, do what you will, which to an extent I do follow especially when going down the LHP (left hand path - which is what they call black magic practitioners) for justice spells etc (or when somebody needs a right royal kicking up the butt!).

Yes I believe in theory to the "threefold karmic law" which is whatever you does comes back at you threefold but I don't believe in the threefold component as 3 times as bad, it is more the 3 realms (earth, body, spirit).

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Originally Posted by SaraJane
Are you ever embarrassed about your faith.

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No, I've never been embarrassed, it is a part of who I am and makes me the person I am today, but then again most people don't know what religious path I follow unless they ask, I don't often wear a pent around my neck, I don't dress in witchy-black clothing etc. But in saying that I'm never far from a pack of tarot cards or runes (usually in my handbag or on my desk at work), or far from some crystals (I've usually got one shoved down my bra).

I have friends of all faiths, I welcome friends of all faiths. My DH's best mate is training to be a priest and he had a blast leading up to the wedding discussing religion & theology with me and then at our reception he was around my friends on the "fun" table (we put all our friends on 1 huge table instead of splitting them up) and was talking in depth to the heathen, pagans and muslim - they all love him and he was totally blown away at how friendly and non-judgemental they were towards him.