immunisations

[lisaandshaun]

Hi,

My husband and I are at the moment tackling the dreaded to vaccinate or not to vaccinate. I feel that my child should be vaccinated against a few diseases but not all.

What are other peoples views? How do you feel about having your new bundle of joy jabbed with a liquid you know nothing about? What are the pros and cons for people in regard to this issue?

All views are welcome, but please dont label me as a bad parent.

Thanks
lisa

[LimeSlice]

We havent had DD vaxed AT ALL

There are just too many reasons not to do it for us.

My best advice though is to do your research!! ther is so much information out there that isnt publicised, both for and against.
You need to be informed as much as possible - ask as many questions as you can of your health providers and let them know you wont take the stock standard responses and want EVIDENTIARY support on anything they tell you, good or bad.
Talk to other parents about reactions to the vax, most of tham are now combined, it is amazingly difficult to get seperate vaccines for individual illnesses, making it virtually impossible to 'partially' immunis now.
So READ RESEARCH and QUESTION EVERYTHING you find.

You will need to know your family history pretty well too, and do some thinking about the types of environments you and you bubs and family is exposed to and ascertain your own risk factors for the illnesses, each on their own merits. This is really helpful when looking at things like side effects, and other medical issues arising immediately adn later on down the track, of the vaccines themselves.


There have been a few other threads about this recently where I have posted some links to some sites...will go and find them for you.


ETA: These are threads from BellyBelly: Vaccination Information and Research section of BellyBelly here

Some good starting points for research here (anti vax) Anti-vac research - Show me yours

Have a lok through all the threads in the Vax section - there are many of them that are really good discussions about whether or not to vax and why people have done so or not. Great for perspective and there are really helpful links posted both for and against in them too. It may take a while, but you will need to look further into things than what they give you in those nice trifolded pamphlets with pictures of smiling babies and scary statistics.

Good luck! If you need anything else or want some more specialised info, PM, I have a ton of the stuff! (pro and con) lol

[Rommy'sMummy]

Its a hard one isnt it? Its a topic close to my heart. Of course I wouldn't think you were a bad parent for trying to work out what is best for your bub!

Did you see the 7.30 Report the other night?

I will give you our story (short version). Our son is 5 and was born with congenital heart disease - his heart didnt form properly in my womb. This has meant that DS was born early (36wks) small (1.5kg) and had to have many heart surgeries (four open heart surgeries so far with transplant likely).

This has meant that my son is highly susceptible to infection and disease - he is not auto-imune compromised but the IMPACT of disease is very significant for him. Ie gastro means at least a week in hospital for us. This is meant that our son has had all vaccinations and some additional ones to assist him ie Flu shots each year and when he was a baby RSV (broncioloitis) vac shots every month during flue season.

We live in Southern Adel where there is a largish population of anit-vax families. This puts our son at greater risk of getting seriously ill. While vaccinations reduce the likelihood and often severity of getting a disease it is not a 100% guarantee SO that means that our DS playing with and mixing with non-vax children increases his risk of getting seriously ill.

I am also about to have baby #2 and right now there is a whooping cough epidemic in our area. This should not be happening. If parents chose to vax against whooping cough I wouldn't have to be terrified of my son getting it or for the safety of my about to be born baby!

I am sure I am going to **** some people off by my comments but you try being in NICU and PICU with your child. Try being terrified of every cold and tummy bug because it could mean your child doesn't make it. Yes I do get emotional about this. It scares me to tears.

We are trying to decide about vax for this baby and think we will delay the Hep B until 2 months and maybe not have the chickenpox one but as we are in and out of hospt with our son this baby will be in a higher risk group too as it will be exposed to sick kids a lot more than normal.

I probably sound quite rabid! And I know that my situation is not the average one but others choosing to not vax affects my family significantly and so it presses my buttons.

Good luck in your decision but please talk with a pediatrician too and not just the anti-vax group. Ask those that care for children with these diseases and get their perspective on it too.

[Miss E]

Hi Lisaandshaun! I think it is great that you are proactively considering what will be best for your baby and questioning the merits of the different 'standard' procedures that exist when it comes to having a baby. I however tend to agree with RommysMummy. For me choosing not to vaccinate isn't just about your child, it is about the community that you live in and its most vulnerable members. If older children aren't vaccinated against measles or whooping cough it sneaks back into our community which puts the younger members (like our babies who are too young to be vaccinated) at risk. While some of these illnesses aren't life threatening for a ten year old or probably even a five year old, they are for a two month old. I can't begin to imagine how I would feel if my DS caught one of these illnesses while at the doctors or the supermarket because another parent hadn't vaccinated their child. IMO mass vaccination is designed to protect all members of the community, not just the individual being vaccinated iykwim.

[JellyBean]

Touchy topic indeed.
Like Limeslice, we too have chosen not to vaccinate the conventional way and our son has received none. However I am a very strong advocate for natural medicine, I work in this area and we have done/are doing homeopathic 'vaccination', which like conventional vaccination, increases a childs immunity to the pathogen in question (whooping cough, rubella etc), encourages antibody production against the pathogen, but does not guarantee 100% immunity. Unfortunately nothing can offer this.

If you go to the WAVE website (World Association for Vaccine Education), they provide extensive information on the risks of vaccines, including lists of ingredients for specific vaccines according to pathogen type and manufacturer. Its quite disturbing, to say the least. Thimerosol (50% mercury by weight) has been taken out of various early childhood vaccines due to its link with autism and public campaign against this ingredient, but it is still present in the flu vaccine, which is routinely administered to pregnant women and those with compromised immune systems. Interestingly, pregnant women are advised to avoid consuming various types of fish (ie tuna) during pregnancy due to their high mercury content and the toxic effects this heavy metal can have on the unborn.

From a natural medical perspective, the most important way to protect your child/increase their immunity is to limit their exposure to toxins - via food, water, air, personal care products, and medicines. This is the primary reason why we are against mainstream vaccination, as I do not agree with a child being injected with hazardous chemicals such as thimerosol, formaldehyde and many of the other synthetic adjuvants that are added to the product to increase shelf life/preserve the product but are listed as toxic substances by government departments and the chemicals own MSDS (material safety data sheet). Homeopathic vaccination offers increased immunity to various pathogens, without increasing consumption of toxic chemicals. Homeopathic vaccination is also administered orally, which is the natural or standard route of administration for these pathogens (via the mucous membranes).

Below is a copy of info I have cut and pasted from a previous post. It may explain our perspective a little better:

We normally contact bacteria/viruses via our mucous membranes - which line our nose, throat, etc. These mucous membranes play an important role in literally 'registering' and forewarning the immune system of the newly invaded pathogen, and set up a 'blue-print response' if you like, for the immune system to get its army ready to fight the pathogen before it proliferates its way throughout the body.
The problem with vaccines is, they inject the pathogen (virus) as well as many other not so pleasant ingredients directly into the blood stream. This catches the immune system completely off guard, and the traditional immune response to the pathogen does not ensue. This helps to explain why some individuals have such a sudden and violent reaction to the vaccines - from the topical skin rashes and blisters to seizures and even death. The body is literally saying "what the hell are YOU doing here and how on earth did you get past me without me knowing?! I am not prepared for this!"

I remember reading a study not that long ago that looked at antibody count of vaccine viruses in vaccinated children. There was a substantial number who were found to have either no or very minimal antibody count for the viruses they had been vaccinated for- indicating that they were actually not immune from these viruses. It was suggested that this was due to poor immune system response, in response to the 'unatural' exposure of the viruses via the blood stream rather the usual route of the mucous membranes. Whilst it is important to note that sufficient antibody count was present in most children in the study, this study clearly displays the fact that no two children's immune systems are the same, and the medical field's approach to vaccinating all infants and children with the exact same doses at the exact same times is incredibly flawed, treats people as though they are merely numbers, and is in desperate need of review.
As for the 'no evidence' factor regarding autism and vaccines, it may be worth remembering that not all that long ago, the medical profession claimed that there was no link between smoking and cancer. All sorts of weird and wonderful potential culprits where suggested to explain the high prevelence of cancer amoungst smokers as opposed to non-smokers. Doctors even recommended women to smoke during pregnancy as it would help them to 'relax.'..... and look where we are today.

Truth exists regardless of white coats and degrees. Peer-reviewed medical journals aside, there is no greater evidence in one persons life than personal experience.
At the end of the day, we only have ourselves and the ability to do our own research, trust our gut instincts, and perhaps listen to those out there who are fighting to tell their stories against a sea of animosity and opposition.

[JellyBean]

By the way - it doesn't have to be a black or white argument either - many parents choose to delay vaccination until the child's immune system is more developed, and many pick and choose the vaccines which are associated with less risk (for example, many avoid the 12 month MMR combined vaccine). Some even choose to do homeopathic vaccination, with a few conventional vaccines later on.
Try not to stress about the decision - simply empower yourself with knowledge, and know that IT IS a parents right (and arguably their responsibility!) to know each and every ingredient which may be potentially injected into their child- what these ingredients are, where they come from, how they are cultured, what their potential short-term, long term and accumulative effects are in the human body.

Best of luck with your decision. XX

[Rooey5]

I'm a pro-vaccine mum-to-be, but I have nothing against the homeopathic method of vaccination (my aunt and Uncle are homeopathic/naturopathic people), as long as parents vaccinate one way or the other!

I was a sick kiddie (very bad asthma), and had my immunisations (as did bro and sis) as getting something like whooping cough would most probaby have meant the end for little old me.

I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I think it's selfish for parents to not vaccinate at all (either conventionally or homepathically), because there could well be a child living next door to you who IS immunocompromised, or has a chronic medical condition that means getting ill = a trip to hospital every time.

I agree that parents have the right to information about vaccination, but the decision you make might not end up being just about your kid, especially when they start interacting closely with other children. One of my friends has a toddler who hasn't been vaccinated at all and I'm sure as heck not going to feel guilty about not wanting him around my baby. I don't want to have the same experience my parents had with a child spending almost as much time in hospital as out.

[LimeSlice]

I would just like to raise the issue, as it has been mentioned by a couple of PPs, the WRT to non vaxing parents being selfish and not considering others that may be immuno-compromised, etc.

The links to vaccination and many illnesses is well noted - my family history is such that there are several vaccinations that would dramatically increase the risk of my children developing Multiple Sclerosis. I am sorry, no wait, I am NOT sorry that I refuse to vaccinate my child and thus INCREASE her risk of contracting other dire and life threatening illnesses simply so those that immunise can feel more confortable that their children will be more protected.
I am highly offended that there are other parents that expect me to compromise MY childs health becaus ethey choose to take a path that does not afford them the comfort of protection they want

There is statistical evidence from more than one country that shows that the overwhelming majority of children that contract the illnesses that are vaccinated against are actually the childrent hat have been 'fully' immunised against them - so infact, those that immunise put those that dont immunise at more risk of getting sick.
Specifically look at the statistics from Germany and Sweden, where scheduled vaccination of Whooping Cough stopped int eh early 1980 and the disease continued to decrease in frequency and today is so low as to be considered a rare illness.

[Rooey5]

LimeSlice, I'm sorry to have offended, I think there are going to be high emotions on either side.

In your child's case, would homeopathic immunisation be an option? My Aunty has mentioned to me that homeopathic immunisation is a very good option for people who can't/would rather not have conventional vaccines.

Like I said, I don't care if parents don't want to vaccinate with needles and medication, I care if they don't want to vaccinate at all.

[murraysmum]

my first born has autisim and i acinated from birth this time i want info before i vacinate i want to know that what im putting into my child isnt doing more harm then good

[LimeSlice]

Homeopathic immunisations are an option, however we have chosen not to vaccinate at all.
And agian, the instance of these illnesses in children who are not vaccinated AT ALL is considered, medically speaking, to be rare (in australia)

There are many other ways to boost and support the immune system - the main one of thse being vitamin c over and above the 'recommended' intake. The benefits of Vit C therapy are also well documented, just not promoted by your GP - because nobody pays him to sell you Vit C.

The notion of HOW a body becomes infected with disease and therefore how to combat that disease in Western medicine is based on Louis Pasteur's "ground breaking" research - it has been the cornerstone to modern medicine forover a hundred years.
These basic "facts" have since been found to be flawed, if not outright incorrect.
The protection of the body by promoting a healthy immune system, by supporting the body's natural defences and by ensuring that there is no satisfactory bodily environment to turn the viral infection into a disease is a FAR more secure, healthy, natural and EFFECTIVE way to ensure the protection of the human body from aggressive and life threatening diseases.

The research is there - you just have to find it.

[Rooey5]

I agree that promoting a healthy immune system is very important in protecting a body against illness and disease, but unfortunately some people are born with chronic conditions that do make them more susceptible to infection/illness than those who are not regardless of how healthy they keep themselves.

[LimeSlice]

Which is why I respect the choice of parents to vaccinate their children, even though I am aware that those are the kids that will most likely contract the illness, putting MY child at risk.
I am also very aware of the ingredients of the vaccines and how most of those ingredients are toxic, carcenagenic and actually contribute to exaserbating the very illnesses that make the childern vulnerable in the first place, that the chances of contracting another serious illness, or having a contraindicative response to a vaccine is far more likely than ever contracting the illness for which they are vaccinated if left alone.
There are risks either way, there is NO way to prevent all illness all the time in all people.
I respect your choice to immunise, it is about time that people who share the views you do made the choice to respect MY choice for MY child.
I don't have a problem with you vaccinating your child, but for some reason you have aproblem with me not vaccinating mine? THAT is what I find offensive.

Again, the research exists to demonstrate that the majority of cases of these illnesses are found in children that have been fully vaccinated....so explain to me why it is that you are so scared of having a non-immunised child next to your child at school, but you are not scared to have a vaccinated child next to them at school?

[JellyBean]

Again, the research exists to demonstrate that the majority of cases of these illnesses are found in children that have been fully vaccinated....so explain to me why it is that you are so scared of having a non-immunised child next to your child at school, but you are not scared to have a vaccinated child next to them at school?

This is the interesting thing. Mothers claim to be afraid of their child being around unvaccinated children at school etc, based upon the assumption that unvaccinated children are more likely to somehow harbour these diseases, when research clearly shows that the vast majority of children who do contract these diseases are fully vaxed. Besides, if an unvaccinated child does contract whooping cough or some other virus - where did they get it from? The virus has to come from somewhere in the first instance. When a child is vaccinated, they are often advised to keep their child away from other children/daycare etc for a couple of days - as the virus is considered to be alive in their blood stream and hence can be passed on.
There is mounting research which supports the theory of a growing number of health practitioners- that the repeated circulation of vaccines (which contain live virus & bacteria strains) may actually be keeping these viruses/bacteria alive in our society, rather than allowing them to run their natural course toward extinction as did the plague and many other diseases which are now unspoken of.

[Miss E]

Again, the research exists to demonstrate that the majority of cases of these illnesses are found in children that have been fully vaccinated....so explain to me why it is that you are so scared of having a non-immunised child next to your child at school, but you are not scared to have a vaccinated child next to them at school?

Firstly I want to start by stressing that I respect your right not to immunise your child. But I really would like to answer your question and share my point of view.

In the future when my son is vaccinated I will have absolutely no problem in having him socialise with children who aren't vaccinated. But right now when he is 2 months old and is yet to have his vaccinations I am terrified of the possibility that he could catch whooping cough or measles from another person, be it vaccinated or not vaccinated. It is for this reason, that right now while his immune system is developing and supplements like vitamin C can't be given to help build it and he is yet to have his vaccinations, I wouldn't want a non-vaccinated person anywhere near him. But unfortunately I have no way of protecting him from this threat, I don't know if the child in the supermarket que pulling faces at him has been vaccinated or if the woman coughing and spluttering in the medicare office in fact has whooping cough...

While the research suggests that the majority of cases of these illnesses occur in children who are vaccinated, I think it is fair to also consider that the overwhelming majority of children are vaccinated. Because it is only a small minority who aren't vaccinated it is to be expected that on a purely numbers basis there will be less cases. But I am yet to see anything in terms of the percentage of cases in each group that supports the underlying proposition that is being put forward here (vaccinations don't work and don't prevent the spread of these diseases).

Yes, in some rare cases vaccinations fail, but in the overwhelming majority of cases they don't. In my eyes the role of mass vaccination is not only to protect the individuals being vaccinated, but it is more so to protect the most vulnerable members of our community like my 2 month old baby.

[Lulu]

I don't take my 2 month old children out to places where they could be exposed - people are gross and cough, sneeze and splutter over everything. I have more of an issue with those that expose others to disease this way.
I also don't take them to public pools until at least over 12 months and rarely if then.

ETA - and its not so rare that vaccinations fail. Every child I know that managed to catch chicken pox were vaccinated. I think the word "immunisation' give a false sense of security to people.

[Sammiejane]

I was Pro vaccination prior to becoming pg.
I was Pro vaccination for MJ's first year.
I now do not vaccinate MJ.
We stopped prior to the MMR.
As Lulu said some of the vac's dont work.
I am not going to go into the reasons that we chose not to vaccinate, it really is something that you have to decide for yourself.
Smickers posted really good information a while ago - i will try and find the link. It is about partically immunising children and the risk of each.
For our next baby, we will partially immunise for those disease we consider to be most harmful and prevelant based on where and how we live.

one of my best friends is a homeopath... she will not/has not homeopathically immunised her children as they dont really work.
There has to be something for the remedy to work on for it to be effective - so if the virus/disease is not present, it will not work. Much as i can take a remedy while BF and it will pass to MJ, it will not work on her unless there is something for it to remedy - so it is passed out of her system.
She will sell the kits if asked, but will not recommend them and will explain why she thinks they are a waste of $$ before handing them over.

read as much information you can get your hands on, consider all arguments... then make YOUR decision, it is a big one (consider the what happens if).
Most immunisations can be given at any stage so if you choose not to and then change your mind, its is OK... but onces its given you cant take it back KWIM.

[Visitor6]

Vaccination discussions always end up polarised.

For me it's not a difficult decision. Our little man will be immunised.

Exposure to bugs is a natural part of a developing immune system and there is no place for putting your child into a plastic bubble.

Pro-vaccinators will quote just as many papers as will the anti vaccinators.
Causality can be made by anyone with a soapbox and a need to be heard regarding their situation. The autism argument has been a big banner for anti vaccinators, despite no correlation. The emotiveness of such a diagnosis is horrible to bear I'm sure, looking for a reason even more so. Simialry the deabte and unfortunately rage continues on Giardasil, rightly so, but true scientific investigation needs to ensue not emotional rhetoric. Reading discussions on this topic can be a bit like proving the existence of aliens or ho really shot JFK.

However generalist comments are not helpful.

I have been vaccinated against many diseases as a health professional to protect myself and my patients. I would do it all over again. The effect of vaccines is to promote the development of an expected level of immunity. Not every vaccine gives complete immunity, but may reduce the severity of the disease if contracted. The fluvax is a good example.

Not every vaccination takes. Some of my colleagues no matter what don't seroconvert ie produce antibodies to the Hepatitis vaccine. I for example have life long immunity. Hence children can receive varying levelsl of immunity and so there are those who don't.

The vaccination argument cannot be "my child did A so you should do B with your child, becasue the same thing will happen".

As part of my nursing and Ambulance training we were shown videos of diseases that had been eliminated or reduced in severity. That was eye opening enough. Then we saw a video from the Royal Children's of preventable respiratory illnesses.

A good example was seeing a child with whooping cough and how they suffered. Emotional? Yes. You wouldn't ever wish these diseases on little ones. Especially when the chance to prevent them exists.

I agree that not vaccinating could be seen as selfish. If the child contracts a preventable disease is that abuse? I don't know. If it is spread is that also wrong?

I apologise for been so polarised and emotional and I wish you all the best in your decision, I hope you find enough evidence to help you feel comfortable with what ever decision you take.