Anyone done a Tweedle day stay??

**Yael** · April 24th, 2006, 04:23 PM

Hi,

Been meaning the post my sleeping drama's here for a long time, and will hopefully get time to writing it all down tonight (i'm sure its going to be a long one), but quickly, Our problem isn't settling, i can normally get him down no worries, but he wakes up on que every time after 40 mins, and i can't get him back down even though he is still tired, he is very awake cos its the end of a sleep cycle...

Anyway, my MCHN recommended I call Tweedle to talk to them about sleep problems, and today i got my call back from them (after 3 weeks waiting!), and instead of really addressing my problems, told me to come in for a day stay instead...

Anyway, i tried asking her lots of qns, but she seemed like a bit of an idiot, and instead was telling my not to use a hammock (which is the only place i can get him to sleep properally) as it doesn;t train him how to go to sleep on his own, and to start not wrapping him (if we don't wrap him we might as well not bother trying to put him down as he wakes himself up after 2 mins)....

If this is the kinda advice they give, i'm not sure if its worth going or not?? And if they do controlled crying (or torturing!) then i'm seriously walking out in the middle!

Just wondering if anyone has been, and was it any use??

Thanks!
Yael

**Pandora** · April 24th, 2006, 04:50 PM

Hi Yael,

Milo and I have been to a tweddle day stay, a couple of weeks ago.

It was good, and bad.

Good in recognising tired signs, and telling me to try to put him back to sleep when he wakes at 40 mins, bad in most other ways.

It was really hard having to pat him to sleep and watch (and listen to) him scream, I was in tears most of the day, and eventually I picked him up cos he was obviously very distressed, and was told I was doing th wrong thing.

They also said not to use his hammock, which we do sometimes, but he's getting too long for it anyway.

In saying this, his sleeping has improved 100% since we went, aminly as I'm recognising his sleep signs better, and getting him down to bed earlier (the trick for us here was bathing him earlier, and doing bath, feed, bed instead of feed bath bed)

I do the shush-patting that the showed me, but only for 3 lots of 5 minutes if he's really crying, after that I pick him up and give him a cuddle/massage or put him in a sling.

After a while of the shush/pat, I can tell whether he's going to go to sleep or not, so know whether to persist with it.

**nicole mckay** · April 24th, 2006, 09:03 PM

i am actually booked in for next friday and must say that i am abit nervous but i dont feel i have too many other choices and i really do need to address this as it is causing us real probs at home,she wakes every 2 hours or hourly throughout the night.
i took my first son when he was 2 and it was awful but they have assured me that they will not be doing alot of cc at this age as they did with my son,i will let you know how it goes
nikki

Colleen · April 24th, 2006, 09:57 PM

Im having real probs with Jays sleeping lately but I dont know where to find this type of contact info, Any chance someone could pm me the number to call?

Whats the process of being able to attend?

**BellyBelly** · April 24th, 2006, 11:05 PM

Moving this to General Baby & Toddler, might get more replies there...

**Liz** · April 24th, 2006, 11:23 PM

Tallon's a bit like this sometimes. Wakes after about 30mins or so. I've just been picking him up and sitting straight down in the rocking chair with him up on my chest. Sometimes he goes straight back to sleep, othertimes I need to walk a bit with him. Once he's drifted off I give him a few minutes there to make sure he's asleep.. then he goes back down, and will usually finish his sleep until the next feed.

I was worried it was going to become a habit with him crying and wanting me all the time, but he seems to have gotten out of it for most of his sleeps, so now if he does keep waking, I just pick him up and comfort him. I'm not so scared of it ruining good sleeping habits now

**nellbe** · April 25th, 2006, 09:15 AM

Some people like them Yael, some don't as Tweedle seem to promote controlled crying which IMO is the worst thing you can do for a bubs.

I know that they are other gentle sleep schools out there. Babies and sleep just don't seem to go together especially in the first year. There is a misconception about babies sleeping all the night and during the day. Soo many things happen to babies in those first 12 months, I can realise why they don't sleep/settle very well!

Yael - personally I think a hammock is a wonderful idea. The hospital I had my bubs in actually had them for hire or sale! Not everyone doesn't like them. If your baby is happy wrapped then keep them wrapped. A mum from MG stopped wrapping her baby at 14 months old - as he had enough!

I know all this is confusing and heart breaking.. but learning to know your babies sleep signals, having a nap and night time ritual will get you through. That and coffee - you will have sleepless nights regardless of how 'good' your baby sleeps.

**BellyBelly** · April 25th, 2006, 09:22 AM

Also be aware that according to a study, around 50% of mums tried controlled crying and only 5% or something found it effective... and this was only after a short space in time. So it may not work. Not sure of the exact figures but it was around these numbers.

**christy** · April 25th, 2006, 10:33 AM

I have been to a sleep centre twice. Now as I would like to acknowledge that there are gentle sleep schools around in Australia, the majority aren't. I'll give a run down of what happened for us. We went for a 4 night stay. The first time was when Matilda was 12 weeks old, we were co-sleeping at that time and she was waking every 2 hours for feeds during the night, and did not sleep during the day. I was an emotional mess due to birth trauma and Matilda had reflux as well which was very painful for both her & us. Our GP worked on the reflux from the time she was 6 weeks old and recommended we go to the sleep centre to help "train" Matilda to sleep better. I was looking for anything that could help us.

The first thing they did was put her in a cot & tell us to walk away. She went hysterical, and promptly vomitted everywhere. They told us to removed the sheets around her, leaving her in the cot & remake the bed without looking at her. I said "no". If I were to have vomitted in bed, I would want a cuddle and someone to nurture me, I would not want to be ignored & pushed aside while someone cleans around me. I then said I would go home... I didn't agree with what they wanted and I didn't want to stay for a week of CC. They then adjusted what they do to fit with me & what I was willing to do.

I also decided at that point that I would go ahead with the program and hey if I disagreed with it, at least we would have a go and when we got home we could always modify it more to suit us.

So we did a modified version of CC. I hated it, because it still meant Matilda screamed & was upset... even when I was in the room with her. BUT one thing I did learn there, was Matilda would not go to sleep if I was with her.... her independant streak came out. She settled 50% quicker if I was away from her. It didn't mean she had to scream & do it all herself. I could hold her and rock her and get her into a sleepy place and then gently put her down and walk out. IF she got upset I would go back. That was the deal. If she stirred I stayed outside.

It wasn't what I wanted but I learned more about Matilda there. BUT the majority of the mums around me were stuck with CC because they didn't know how to say what they wanted & went along with what the nurses recommended. I learned from Kelly who told me to stick up for us when we walked in and that made our stay more beneficial for us all. HTH!

**Lucy** · April 25th, 2006, 11:44 AM

I have no experience of sleep-schools at all, but Yael, I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth re the wrapping & particularly the hammock.

As most members will know I am a HUGE fan of the hammock and I honestly believe that they DO really really help babies learn how to self settle and sleep by themselves in a peaceful way.

Charlie is, by nature, a great sleeper, so I won't use him as an example, but Olivia was a shocker, and the hammock, once she was big enough (4 months) to get that she could bounce herself to sleep, was the tool that "broke" the 40 minute nap habit for her.............(huge sigh of relief in our household, let me tell you!!)

My personal opinion is that from birth to 4 months, most babies have no idea how to sleep, regardless of bed (cot, bassinett, hammock) so it makes no odds and most babies need cuddles and patting and rocking.

But once babies adjust to the world, a hammock can be a wonderful gentle tool in helping babies learn how to sleep by themselves.

JMO, but I would honestly stick with the hammock...........

**christy** · April 25th, 2006, 01:55 PM

oh I meant to say that too Lucy! I'm buying a hammock for our next child as we thing it is a fantastic gentle way to help babies sleep.

**Lucy** · April 25th, 2006, 02:56 PM

Oooh Christy I am glad to hear that....hopefully it'll mean you have some blissfully easy sleep patterns with your #2! Our hammock is still going strong, although we plan on moving Charlie out of it into a cot sometime this week (he is getting too big and wriggly for it!) but it will get laundered and packed away all ready for #3 in October............

**mummy2Kaitlyn** · April 25th, 2006, 07:29 PM

Hi Yael,

I am really suprised that they said to stop wrapping!! I was told to wrap as long as they need it and Kaitlyn has only been unwrapped for about 2weeks. I think wrapping is very helpful as a settling technique if they like it.

As for the sleep times , Kailtyn only slept for 45mins during the day for the first 5 months or so . Karitane tried to talk me through getting her to sleep for longer stints but she just wouldnt and I think that is just who she is. She started sleeping for 2 x 2hour sleeps a day at about 5months and she got to this on her own. Now she is kinda doing 1 x 45min and 1 x 1hour a day . I think as long as bubs is happy and is sleeping differently at night so you can rest you should not worry to much. Sometimes all the "routines" can really stress you out...I have worked out Kaitlyn is really not text book baby...I wonder how many are :-k

Cass

Cath78 · April 26th, 2006, 04:24 PM

I have recently returned from a week at Tresillian (i guess it's NSW's equilivant). They recommended wrapping which works really well for Chloe.

They also use CC but you must listen to the 'quality' of the cry and use this as more as a guide for when you go in and settle. Now I know here cries and know when she is just annoyed, bored, really upset etc.

Chloe was only having very short 20 or 40 min catnaps during the day and therefore was not going down well at night - even though she did sleep well at night. Now she is having nearly 2 x 2 hour sleeps during the day. Goes down well between 6 and 7 pm and sleeps to 9 - 9.30am with 2 bottles in between (and goes straight back to sleep after them). We have an unsettled time here and there during the day on some days but they can't be perfect all the time!

I really can't recommend them enough - plus they seem to be happy to adapt a little to you and your concerns but I was happy for them to tell me what to do!

**nicole mckay** · April 28th, 2006, 08:47 PM

okay guys we did our day stay today and you can read it on page 7 in the babies born oct 2005 forum,hope it will shed some light on the topic for you
nikki

**Yael** · May 1st, 2006, 07:50 PM

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the reply's! Now i'm really worried about going! We are really against cc, and although i don't think i will have a problem standing up for us, i'm worried then with us just fighting with them about their techniques, we might not get so much out of being there? Wondering if i should cancel instead?

At first i just though i would go there and take away whatever i felt was useful and worked for us, and ignore the stuff we didn't agree with...

We are really happy with the hammock, he seems to find it comforting, although i do see their point in a way about it not teaching him to sleep so much as he gets used to the rocking motion. But on the other hand he does sleep other places (occasionally i co-sleep with him when DH isn't ere (he has sleep apnoea and i think he sleeps too deeply for it to be safe to have a baby in the bed)), and in his bassinette part from his stroller etc... So i'm not giving it up just cos they say so...

And we are happy wrapping him.. He still has the startle reflex, and really can't stay asleep so well without it (he can fall asleep but then wakes himself up)... My friend said they wrapped until like 8 months, and then taught the baby slowly by wrapping 1 arm out, then the other than kind thing?

And i would think its more helpful to fix the sleeping pattern, and then try and wean him off these things gradually anyway???

Can somebody please PM me with some places that are gentle sleep schools??? I would be so much more happy going there instead!

Rachel - are you glad you went anyway if Milo's sleep improved??

Nicole - I read about your experiences... Sounds exactly like cc to me! Do you know if they did the same thing for the younger babies also? Has it helped you?

Christy - it sounds horrible... I get a bit frustrated with the not sleeping thing, but if they told me to do that, i would end up in tears putting my son through that.. I know he needs help sleeping, but i think he needs help through comfort not through us being cold towards him, IMO! Did you find them accomodating in modyifing the program to something you were comfortable with, or did u have to fight with them? I just have visions of fighting with them the way i had to with my first midwife during labour about not going on the oxytocin drip!

At the moment we are trying to get him sleepy, then putting him down and getting him to go to sleep, and coming back in and giving him a rock when he starts to get worked up (he kinda squeaks a lot), but before he actually starts crying, and then leaving again.. I figure it will take a while, but if i come in before he cries than that way its not horrible... But is that still modified cc?? What would gentle sleep techniques be instead??

Anyway, DA is playing atm, so i might try and describe our sleeping problems!

Ok, generally we don't have much trouble getting him down during the day, he goes down pretty easily, rock him until he is sleepy, put him in his hammock, and thn rock the hammock and he goes off to sleep (being wrapped with a dummy).. but every time on cue he will wake up after 40 mins, and be so very awake then, but i know he is still tired.. If i catch him early enough i might be able to get him back down after 20-30mins or rocking and patting, but other times i give up and get him up..

Problem is he has a little play for like 15 mins, but as he is still tired
he doesn't enjoy himself and starts getting all kvetchy, and then we end up going through the whole cycle again... And once it gets further on in the day it gets harder to get him down and get him to stay down, even for the 40 min thingy! By nighttime its just terrible, and we can easily be in there in and out for 2 hours... but once we have got him down, at least he stays down!

I'm getting more and more frazzaled as i have no time to myself and is hard just being in and out of there all day long, but i could handle it if at least he was happy this way, but i genuinely believe that this isn't good for him either... He never gets to have proper play times cos he is tired, and when he does sleep (on sunday he had a 3 hr sleep in the afternoon!!!!) he was so happy when he got up and got to have 1hr of happy play, rather than lots of 15mins on unhappy play!

Also, if i try and go out anywhere I have got no chance of getting him to sleep! he has always been such an alert baby, so if i want to go shopping he could easily stay up for like 5 hrs with one 20 min doze... I try covering his pram, but it doesn't help (so i might as well keep it open so he can see out and at least that way he doesn't scream), but by the end i'm holding him to stop him crying cos he's so tired, and pushing the pram 1 handed!

I hardly ever go out because of this, but eventually i need to get out also, and this always happens.... Or if i can get my mum to babysit he doesn't settle for her either, and i feel guilty getting someone to mind him when he acts like this...

This week i've tried getting him up earlier (he normally feeds between 6.30 - 8.30am) and normally wants to go straight back to sleep, but if i unwrap him and change him and try to get him up, he'll have like a 30 min play and the go back down, and then he seems to sleep a bit better during the morning (might have a 1hr to 1.5hr nap instead), but by around 2pm he is back to his usual thing!

I don't want to do cc, i want something more gentle, but i also know that this situation isn't good for him or me, and i want to change it (mainly for him though!!!!)

I'm worried that maybe i should cancel the daystay, but i don't know where else to turn to get some help!

I've already cried so many times tonight because i've had a rough day and for the last 2 nights he has been feeding every 3hrs (Normally goes at least 5.5hrs plus), but he must be having a growth spurt, and i'm so exhausted from lack of sleep!

I feel like a bad parent cos i can't help my son to sleep, and in my tired haze i wonder if leaving him to cry is really such a terrible thing, even though i know if i had more energy i wouldn't even consider it! Better than the other suggestions ppl give me about drugging him to "teach him to sleep" (WTF?? - who drugs a 3 month old baby!)... And i hate to way ppl look at me like i am a bad parent when i tell them we have sleeping issues and they act like they have perfect babies! GRRR....

Does anyone have any more suggestions?? I don't know what else to do!!??

**Lucy** · May 1st, 2006, 08:25 PM

Yael,

Just one thing off the top of my head that could possibly help......with breaking the 40 minute sleep cycle thing.........(you may be doing this already, so please feel free to ignore!)

Do you have any music playing for him? ie Peacebaby or similar? A CD that lasts more than 40 mins? Do you have a little CD player with a repeat function?

Peacebaby, for example, has the sleep assisting 60 beats per minute which is suggested really helps restful deep sleep, and the CD lasts for around 47 mins.....it may help break the 40 minute cycle, especially if you have it on repeat?

(It also has the benefit of keeping YOU calm, which always helps!)

**Yael** · May 1st, 2006, 08:39 PM

Hi Lucy,

we have the CD "Sounds for Silence", which i put on repeat, but to be honest haven't noticed that its made any difference...

I don't mind trying another one, but if it just does the same thing it might just be a waste of money??

Thanks for the reply though

Yael

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