4 yr with TT problems - child psychologist?

[dee73]

(Didn't know whether to put this in toilet training forum but I put it here as I suspect there are other issues, mods move if appropriate...)

DS1 was late starting to TT, we tried a few times between his 2nd and 3rd birthdays, but he just wasn't interested. Started again when he was 3yrs 3months. He still wasn't that interested, but reward charts worked simply because he wanted to get new toys. Anyway, a whole year down the track, he is still having accidents nearly every day, often both types iykwim. He does a little "dance" and I'll say you need to go to the toilet, and he says "no I don't". Then a few minutes later his undies are wet (or worse). Now, the back story, I am being treated for anxiety/depression atm, and the main thing that sent me to seek help was the way I was treating DS1. When he had an accident, I would not be able to control myself, and would yell/sceam at him, way out of proportion to what he'd done. This started happening around October last year (so he'd already technically been TT'd for 8 months but was still having the accidents.) It just got to the point I couldn't cope. Our gp said it's common for boys to be like this, that they just have better things to do and he would grow out of it eventually (and MIL says DH was exactly the same till he was 5!). But now I'm worried that my over-reacting (which I don't do any more as I'm working through my issues) has set him back further and he'll never grow out of it. We've tried soooo many different techniques, from rewards for one pair of undies all day, to loss of priviledges (ie whatever he is doing when he has his accident, he can't do for the rest of the day.)

While I am coping with it better now, I feel really bad for him, as he's now at kindy, and on Tuesday went through 3 changes of clothes there. It doesn't seem to bother him - I really think he doesn't care, but I care (and I'm sure his kindy teachers don't like having to change him!)

I'm now starting to think maybe it wouild be worth seeing a child psychologist (my psychologist actually suggested that option) but I don't know. Has anyone had similar issues, or have thoughts on whether a psych is a good idea at this stage?

[skeetaboat]

I don't have much great advice but just wanted to pop in and offer support. It sounds *really* tough and I can understand why you're concerned, and also why you found it difficult to cope with. I imagine that would have made it difficult to leave the house or do anything social for all that time. Especially with all the competition that often surrounds parenting & child development (which shouldn't, we all do things differently and develop at different rates). Good on you for recognising that you needed help

I think he will eventually start caring, which will be the impetus for him to remember. The fact that your husband did the same suggests that it might not be anything to worry too much about.

As for the psych and wondering if you might've made the oroblem worse... is there anything to suggest that he's doing it on purpose or to weild some control over you? Unless he is, I don't think you've made it worse or need a child psych (JMO). What is it making you feel like he might need a child psych?

[dee73]

Skeetaboat - it's not that I think he's trying to "weild power", more just that I think he's so scared Mummy is going to be cross again that he might need help.

Anyway, we went to the gp today who didn't really say anything except that he thinks a paediatric assessment is needed. So we've got a 3 1/2 week wait to get into the paed. In the mean time, we actually had quite a good day today, after a REALLY bad one yesterday. So we'll just take it one day at a time and wait for the next appointment.

[Visitor7]

I'm sorry, I have no advice or experience to share, however I wanted to wish you all the best with your upcoming appointment with the paediatric assessment. I really hope you can find something that works for you both soon.

[~clover~]

I just wanted to let you know that at 5 DD1 would still get distracted & wet herself. Not often, but she did it.
You could have him seen & see what happens. There's no harm in it, but I wouldn't stress too much. Have you tried not saying anything at all? Next time he does it, just say 'woops!', go change him, then let him keep playing. Maybe bringing any sort of attention to the situation has him thinking about it too much?
No rewards, no penalties?? Just an idea

[skeetaboat]

Ah, I see. Well then I think an appt with a child psych won't do any harm and could help find a solution. It sounds like you might need to do some work building his trust in you back up again. I would spend a lot of time one on one, lots of cuddles and physical contact, responding to him promptly and with patience whenever he seeks out your attention - whether it's small thing or a big thing or a frustrating thing (hard I know). When he knows you'll consistently respond to him in a calm & loving manner I think he will feel more secure to ask for help in regards to TT when he needs it. And of course whenever he does have an accident, respond calmly and consistently. I think BJ rose has some good advice there.

Maybe it's worth talking to him about the difference between before and now too. Like "mummy is very sorry she used to yell at you when you had an accident. Mummy shouldn't yell at you because it's just an accident. Mummy won't yell at you anymore when you have an accident. If you have an accident, or you need help to go to the toilet, you can tell me and I will help you. I promise I won't be mad at you. I got angry and yelled at you before because X (sorry not sure what to say there), and it was very naughty of me to yell, and I'm not going to do that anymore " (and then of course, you have to demostrate that you mean what you've said - you can't go back on it or he won't believe that you'll help him when need be).

Also, you could explain to him how his tummy works, that after he eats it sends his body the message that he needs to do poos. Remind him after each meal or snack, which will get him in the habit of checking if he needs to do a no 2 after a meal and get him to learn the signals from his body that a no. 2 is coming. There's a really good kids book that explains it but I can't for the life of me remember what it is called. It's not as predictible with no. 1s.

What about a digital watch that beeps every hour and when it beeps he goes to the toilet or at least checks if he feels like he needs to? You could make a bit of a big deal about getting his 'special' watch

Anyway, hope that helps. How are you coping with it now that you've gotten help?

[MantaRay]

dee, it is a very frustrating problem and it is very understandable that you have been reacting. I too have yelled at DS1 who is now 5 and at school and still doesn't recognise the need to do number 2s most of the time. We are only human and this really is a difficult thing to handle.

The biggest help for us has been Occupational Therapy. Who knew that there were OT's that just worked with toileting issues? It is far more common than you would expect, and many of the kids they work with are older than my DS1. I think we don't know about it because mums are too embarrassed to tell others.

The OT has been so fantastic, and they have so many strategies for different situations. In DS's case, he has lost the sensation of needing a bowel movement due to past constipation and withholding. This has stretched his bowel, so when he says that he doesn't need to go, it's because he really doesn't know he needs to go unless he sits on the toilet and tries. Even understanding that, knowing that it's not behavioural, has been a huge help and makes it easier to deal with. But also she has given us some awesome strategies for managing and fixing it, and I have to say that things are heaps better and we are nearly there.

I highly recommend seeing an OT who specialises in this - if your GP gives you a referral and asks for it, you can get some visits for free with the allied health plan that has recently come in. Seeing an OT is the best thing we could have done.

GL with it hun - I know it's hard

[dee73]

Skeetaboat - I have talked to him about how mummy's behaviour was because she was sick and that the doctor is helping me get better - he's noticed it himself anyway, the other day he said to me "mummy, you're happy now". We do have a body book and he understands hor the system works.

Mantaray - thanks for that - I didn't know OT's did that either! At this stage we have our paed visit in 3 weeks, so will see what he says. We've had 2 really good days now, no accidents yesterday, and a lovely no 2 with no complaints on the loo this morning before kindy.

It seems as if just going to the gp yesterday was an incentive for him. He's not fighting me now when I ask him to go to the toilet, he just goes with no fuss. Hopefully this new attitude will last!

[skeetaboat]

Skeetaboat - I have talked to him about how mummy's behaviour was because she was sick and that the doctor is helping me get better - he's noticed it himself anyway, the other day he said to me "mummy, you're happy now". We do have a body book and he understands hor the system works.

Mantaray - thanks for that - I didn't know OT's did that either! At this stage we have our paed visit in 3 weeks, so will see what he says. We've had 2 really good days now, no accidents yesterday, and a lovely no 2 with no complaints on the loo this morning before kindy.

It seems as if just going to the gp yesterday was an incentive for him. He's not fighting me now when I ask him to go to the toilet, he just goes with no fuss. Hopefully this new attitude will last!

It's lovely that he's noticed the change in you Also for you that his new attitude lasts, and if not, it sounds like you've been pointed in some great directions for professional help. best of luck, let us know how it goes.

[mrsmac]

I teach kindergarten at school and we often have kids wet their pants cause they get preoccupied! DS is 4 in May and still has accidents a LOT but always at home not anywhere else and like your son he just doesn't seem to care which frustrates the heck out of me.

I think a paed check to make sure its not an infection or bladder reflux would be good, it may be medical. Then if that all pans out a psychologist would be a good idea.

BTW Can I say what an inspiring woman you are for dealing with your issues and be able to talk about them with your son openly- he is a very lucky boy.

[SJL]

I am not sure about seeing a psychologist but would be worth at least seeing a continence nurse, your doctor should be able to refer you to one.

Sjl

[dee73]

Thanks Mrs Mac, I can't say I feel particularly inspriring at this stage of my life though...

We had a really good day today - his 1st accident free full kindy day! So he got to have a bowl of "Daddy's special cookie ice cream" when he got home. He was very proud of himself too, which is the first time he's shown pride in that.

Paed appt is in 2 weeks...