[VENT] Why Didn't Midwives/LCs Just Tell Me I Had Large Nipples?

[fionas]

I'm peed off with both my BF attempts/experiences.

DD1 - tried to attach her for 10 days. Basically got nowhere, thought it was me being unco and a new mum. Had lots of help from midwives and a lactation consultant (in the hospital). Lost more than 10% of weight, got sent home before milk even came in and was told to attempt to BF, express, give top-ups. Did that for a while, attachment still didn't work so expressed for two months.

DD2 - exactly the same except that I'd worded the hospital up that I had probs first time around and I REALLY wanted to get the hang of it. Had help every single feed. Attachment was OK till my milk came in then boobs blew up like melons. DD2 was a smaller baby and lost more than 10% so panic stations. Again got sent home with instructions to attempt attachment, express and give top-ups. Did that for three weeks, saw a lactation consultant twice who just told me to "Keep trying". Hard to keep trying when there is barely any progress at something you've attempted eight times per day for three weeks. Decided at the three week mark enough was enough and stopped all attempts and all expressing because it was making me sore. On the spur of the moment tried to attach again at 7 weeks. Easy as pie. Started relactation. Semi-successful. Co-fed through supply line for 3 months until very recently.

Also randomly came across information that I have very large nipples which explains why attachment was so difficult and why expressing made me so sore. Wasn't my technique, wasn't anything wrong with DDs - just plain anatomy. Solved as soon as DD's mouth got a little bigger. WHY DIDN'T ANY MIDWIFE OR LC TELL ME THIS????????? If they'd simply told me that I would have attempted attachment again with DD1 and would have expressed a lot longer with DD2 and not had to have relactated from scratch due to lack of milk. DD2 had no nipple confusion whatsoever despite the fact that she was totally bottlefed for six whole weeks, it's like we both instinctively knew when she was big enough to breastfeed as I tried again and she had no problem attaching.

Bit peed off.

[Frangipani]

Wow...that was probably my issues too...and nobody ever mentioned to me either. I had a hard time bf DS1- he was a small baby- we persevered and ended up using a nipple shield. But DS2 was bigger and after a 2 week struggle seemed to just suddenly get the hang of it- and now you mention it- he obviously had to grow into it!

Actually now i think about it my DH may have made comments along those lines- but i wasn't in the mood to pay attention cause i thought he was just being annoying.

Sorry you had to go through those issues. But glad you were able to work it out with your DD2- even though it was alot of work.

Hopefully this information on here will help any other bb members who may be having issues. Thank you for sharing it.

[fionas]

thanks Bec - unfortunately, I was never able to fully BF DD2 because although I partially relactated, it was never enough for even one BF per day so I always had to use a supply line. I've also stopped doing that because of a whole wad of extra problems and gone fully to bottle. All these problems would have been completely unnecessary if one of the so-called experts had just pointed this out to me. I would have been patient and expressed until DD was big enough and maintained enough supply so that I only had to feed DD more to increase it rather than taking drugs, expressing every hour for two weeks etc. etc.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Unbelievable A friend of mine had a similar experience, her second bub couldn't feed and she tried so hard for 6 weeks, refused to give him formula, ended up with severe PND and couldn't bear to look at him for a while. She went to her doc and said it felt like bub couldn't attach properly, and doc says of course, he's tongue tied - which no-one had bothered to tell her! So it was a simple snip, but by then bub screamed whenever he went near her breast, so he had to be formula fed

Can you say anything to the 'professionals', to let them know how angry/disappointed you are?

[CrazyLady]

I think that was DD's issue. I mean no **** my nipples are almost 3cm across and DD was a tiny 2.1kg. The poor little bugger couldn't hold her tiny mouth open without wearing herself out so my supply went to ****. Also I found when expressing they'd chafe (sp?) like mad and I ended up with blisters.

[Barb Glare]

It can be so frustrating when you find a piece of information down the track...when it is too late which could explain your situation. You did such an amazing job for your little one despite your problems. We all just need to sit around the campfires a little more with our tops off. See who's got what. Occsionally there is a mis-match between the size of baby's mounth and the nipple, and the good news is that, indeed, in time (and usually quickly) your baby's mouth will grow to fit your nipples. Having said that, nearly all nipples work fine to feed a baby. Not long ago I went to see a mum at home who was expressing and bottle feeding because it was sooooooo painful to her to feed - she hadn't fed her other children. She seriously had the biggest nipples I have ever seen (and I've seen a lot!) But when she went to get her baby - he had a beautiful big mouth and soon she was feeding painfree.
Many women are told their problems are because they have *flat nipples* - this drives me mad. Small nipples, flat nipples, big nipples - they all work find. Problems that exist are usually not caused by the nipples. But sometimes if there is a size mismatch reassurance that you can feed the baby, and when he grows a little breastfeeding will work fine can be useful

[Rainbow_Mumma]

i think this has been my problem too i have very large nipples and always had attachment issues i am determind to get over it this time even though with twins im sure it will pose more of a problem

[CrazyLady]

Crossing my fingers this time around I get a bub with a HUGE, hungry mouth like my nephew.

[fionas]

Thanks guys.

The other thing that I find perplexing is the whole attitude that if you give one bottle, your baby will become very confused and will not take to the breast again. I believed this so strongly with DD1 that I absolutely refused to give a bottle and only gave in when they threatened not to release me from hospital because she had lost too much weight and I simply could not attach her. I was so scared that giving her a bottle would mean the end of our breastfeeding that common sense left me.

I don't think breastfeeding advocates realises what a huge disservice this does to many women (like myself) who struggle. It just makes us more stressed which makes us even less likely to be able to get it together. I put huge amounts of pressure on myself every single breast feed as I thought if I couldn't get it to work 'this time' and had to give another bottle, that our journey was over.

While I have no doubt that some babies do get confused, I wonder if this is true of the majority. When I was reading about relactation it said that most babies could be persuaded to go back to the breast provided that they were under three months old.

Now to me, you can't have it both ways. You can't demonise giving the odd bottle but then on the other hand say, "but oh yes, if you want to relactate, it should be possible."

I didn't even try relactating with my first baby because I simply assumed because I had given her bottles, that she would be so confused she would never have gone back to the breast. Whereas in actual fact, relactating with my first daughter would have been easier than with my second because I had expressed for two months so still had supply whereas with my second I had no supply.

[Barb Glare]

These questions have been occupying my mind, a lot, too. And after a very full day at the coal face, I am not feeling any more positive about the future of breastfeeding. By and large, as a society we have been sold the lie that *breastfeeding doesn't work*. We just don't believe it works. So at the first hint of a problem, it confirms our belief that it *just doesn't work* and the best/only alternative is to go to the bottle. My evidence: The mother who went home for christmas (2 bouts of mastitis in 4 weeks - her relatives regaled with stories of how many bouts of mastitis they had *continually* - it was hereditary. They'd have to stop. The mother whose baby had an issue with dairy proteins. Told by her paed that she had no alternative but put her baby on soy formula. The mother whose baby had a tricky medical/developmental issue, expressing for her baby told (by friends and drs) "No point putting yourself through it - just put her on the bottle" even though she'd breastfed her son and badly wanted to do it for this baby. The mother whose baby clusterfed in the evening but worried it was not normal and she was neglecting her other child.
All of these problems are real, but could be worked through.
What these mothers are going through is not the fault of breastfeeding advocates. Let's lay it at the feet of where it belongs - the culture that tells mothers *it's just not worth it* (and who benefits from that - not the breastfeeding advocates. The Baby whisperers? The formula companies?)
The way I approach it and other LCs I know approach problems is that problems exist. The first rule is *always* "feed the baby". Optimally from the breast, then with mother's own milk, then if necessary by other means, including bottle if appropriate, and it no breastmilk is available, then with formula. You need to prioritise. But always the aim is to utimately breastfeed, even if you need to use bottle/formula on the way.
Most babies will feed from bottle or breast just fine. But some won't. And that information is not printed on their forehead. It would not be responsible to suggest that all babies can feed from both just fine. Because if you introduce a bottle and your baby can't deal with both, then the grief of not breastfeeding and the difficulty of re-establishing breastfeeding is accute for you - even if the 9 out of 10 other babies do just fine.
My motto for the year - we are aiming for success - not perfection. Fiona, going what you went through and relactating and feeding your baby for 3 months is absolutely amazing. You know it's worth it. It was a successful breastfeeding relationship - because success is not measured in mls or weeks, but in getting there, and experiencing that special journey.
And - side-not - there is no age limit to entice babies back to the breast. It's what babies are designed to do, and with patience and in their own time they all will. Adoptive babies may breastfeed even if they have been bottlefed for *years*.

[fionas]

I understand what you're saying Barb, I really do, but in my experience and in the smug, educated, middle-class, we KNOW breast is best/better/optimal (whatever phrase is preferable because I can't be bothered with the semantics) circles I move in, women DESPERATELY want to breastfeed and many women I know, like me, absolutely put themselves through the wringer trying to do it. We crucify ourselves with guilt if we do any of the things that we're not meant to - including giving the odd bottle of formula or a dummy.

So to be told that giving a bottle here and there can radically affect the breastfeeding journey to me seems disingenuous because I don't think it does in the majority of cases. So why don't advocates just say that? Why don't they say that in some cases, not all, it does cause problems. It's unlikely but it can. Rather than the message that I hear (and maybe it's only my interpretation of the message) which is, "do NOT give bottles if you can absolutely avoid it because it will most likely cause problems." To me it feels patronising to be told not to give bottles when most of the women I know would ONLY give them as a last resort. Not just when they're a bit tired and can't be bothered, but when they are genuinely at the end of their tether.

BTW, even though I think we're having a robust discussion Barb, I love your work and really appreciate the fact that you're replying and that I'm getting the opportunity to discuss this with you.