Buying a trained guard dog

[Charlotte91]

So, it looks like our circumstances will be changing towards the end of next year and we will be requiring that bit of extra security.

After some discussion between us and other people, we will most likely be getting a German Sheppard who is already trained in strong obedience and guard dogging.

This dog, if it all goes ahead, will be part of our family. Not just a some security.

I have been in discussion with a few different organisations who will choose and train a dog for us.

Has anyone done this before? Bought a pre-trained dog?

[Miss.September]

Are you buying a puppy to be trained as you want and then it's coming to you as a trained dog, or are you getting an already trained one (as in ex-police dog/security dog).

If it's an ex dog, I'd be wary, especially with young kids. We went through this with our family, getting mature shepherds that were already trained but had been rejected for some reason (like a shepherd who was trained for police but wouldn't stop chasing cats). Each reject dog had serious issues. One would bite. One had separation anxiety. One was rough. My stepmum has extensive knowledge on dog breeding and dog training and every dog she brought home was returned. In the end, she bought a shep puppy - he was raised with four kids around (aged 4-12), he was trained to be an effective guard dog and he was part of the family.

[~clover~]

Being a mother, I personally wouldn't bring a dog into my home over 3-6 months old. Especially not this type of dog.

I wouldn't have a dog around my kids I hadn't known from as early as possible, because the dog wouldn't know us. A dog needs to grow up around children to be able to tolerate them IMO. Children are very unpredictable & a dog needs to see that from an early age. Kids also need to know how to treat a dog, don't get me wrong! But a dog who's been with kids from a pup will have a different reaction to a dog who's never spent time with kids.

I got my last girl at 4-5 months old & security wise, she was the BEST guard dog. Part of that was because ex abused her, so she hated men Never tried to hurt anyone though, just let me know she wasn't happy with them in her yard.
But she let my kids crawl around all over her. She loved my babies & they loved her

She had it down to a fine art. The next door neighbours partner knocked on the front door, Bella didn't flinch. When next door didn't hear that the partner knocked on her window... Bella lost it. Anything normal was fine, but anything out of the ordinary wasn't on & she made it clear that there was something wrong. That was without any security training. Just being protective of her family.

[Jaycee]

Completely agree with the above posters.

I would absolutely not bring a trained guard dog into my family home. They're trained to guard and protect. They're not going to distinguish the difference between your children or an intruder, that's my opinion anyway.

These dogs have been trained to protect, and visciously.

Please think twice before bringing this type of dog in to your home.

[nickle730]

I was raised with German Shepherds and now have one of my own, a gorgeous long coat girl. My brother has his second GS since leaving home. I am a huge fan of the breed.

When buying a GS from a responsible breeder, they will be bred from one of two lines - working lines or show lines. Working dogs are bred for their strong prey instinct. These are the dogs used in protection and police work. Show dogs are bred for their desirable physical traits and have a lesser prey and fighting instinct, but generally a greater pack instinct. All GS, regardless of their breeding lines, retain a strong prey, fighting and pack instinct. They are intelligent, curious and loyal. They are also a huge responsibility and require a great deal of time and attention.

I would never bring a GS from working lines into a family situation. These animals are bred for their desire to seek out and capture prey and this instinct is incited by rapid movement combined with excited noises. You know, like kids running about, squealing! Working dogs generally respond best to an environment with a single master and can become frustrated by a family environment.

GS from show lines retain their prey instinct, but the drive is not nearly as strong as in those dogs who have been bred specifically for this trait. Their pack instinct is very strong and they are extremely protective of their family or 'pack'. The trick is to socialise GS puppies from the time they are very young, with both humans and other animals (particularly cats, if you have them. Cats set off that strong prey instinct every time!!). It is important to set the pecking order within the pack from the very beginning, and for the GS to understand that s/he is at the bottom of that pack. This is particularly important with young children as a GS has the size and strength to cause serious injury to a young child whom it feels is challenging it's pack position - the dog starts at the bottom of the pack and stays there always. You need to be prepared to deal with the dog challenging this position, particularly with the children and in the first 12 months.

TBH, to be a GS owner is a huge responsibility, more so than with a lot of the more docile breeds. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to raise a good GS! There is a reason a visit to the local pound will usually show a couple of dumped GS's, often some crossbreeds. Improperly handled, GS's can be unpredictable and aggressive. Being an intelligent dog, it is important for the owner to understand the psychology of the breed.

The other thing to consider is that the first couple of years with a GS is generally pretty hard work! Without firm training, they can become quite destructive and they crave the time and attention of their pack, so are not animals who can be left alone to their own devices. They begin to mature at around 2, and this is when you see your hard work pay off.

My GS is just two now. She is - finally! - maturing. She is gentle, loyal, loving and protective. I'd even go so far as to say that she is obedient! We have had issues with her prey drive; she has on a couple of occasions, mouthed the arm of the older kids when they have been running about squealing. No damage done, but a good reminder of the potential. Both of these occasions were when she was about 6 months old, before the pack order was firmly established. She and the cats are only now becoming... 'friends'! Although we still need to ensure that the cats have a safe refuge from the dog as she will happily chase them down - if she does corner them, she doesn't know what to do! Her instinct tells her she must 'capture' them, but her training tells her she mustn't harm them! Fortunately, the cats are generally smart enough to get out of the way and her hesitation if they are cornered allows them to escape! She caught one of our pet ducks who escaped and was flapping about - goodbye duck. She guards our property constantly. We are on several acres and my GS takes up her patrol route approximately 20 times a day. When she is not patrolling, she lies at the door near the kitchen or at the front gate if we are out. If the kids are outside, she follows them about and will bark if something untoward happens such as someone falling over. (I swear she talks, she has a different bark for every situation, including the 'hey, mum, you need to come now, the kids need you'!) When the kids are in the pool, she patrols laps around it. Last summer, DD2 took off at a run for the edge of the pool. I was in the pool area, but sitting under the veranda perhaps 6 metres from the edge of the pool as DD2 played about a metre from me. The dog was at the other end of the pool (big pool, perhaps 15-20 metres from where we were). I jumped up to grab DD as I called her name. The dog bolted for us, leapt over two corners of the pool and by the time I reached the edge of the pool seconds later, DD was sitting on the edge, her toes dangling in... and the dog crouched over her lap, preventing her from falling in, looking at me as if to say 'what took you so long'!! The GF who was visiting was absolutely amazed. She, like so many people, was afraid of the breed as she believed they were aggressive and didn't understand that the 'aggression' is purely a poorly controlled protective instinct. The only time our GS has been aggressive is when, very late one night the police entered our property. We heard her barking at the gate and went to see what was going on - we found one police officer cowering on the ground (he fell over himself in his rush to run away!) as she crouched in front of him, growling menacingly and with teeth bared and his partner having just jumped back over the gate. She did not bite or physically contact either of the men, but she made it clear that these two strangers entering our property on foot at midnight were not expected visitors. As soon as we said 'It's OK, 'dog', come.' She backed off and wagged her tail. The police had actually come to inform us that one of our neighbours had reported a prowler on their property, but they suspected that we would't have any problems! Poor blokes, I think they both needed to go back to the station and change their pants. We do have large signs on the property warning of the dog, but for some reason the coppers decided to ignore them.

I work in a job which often brings me in contact with the police and occasionally with the dog squad. It is worth noting that that the officers from the dog squad keep their animals separated from the family environment at home. They truly love their dogs and would trust the dog with their own lives, but they recognise that the animal is not suited for running about with kids. A couple of the blokes I have spoken to have said that they do allow their kids to have contact with their working dog, but it is very closely supervised and only for short periods.

Anyway, I could ramble on forever about my dog. The bottom line is, a GS that you are willing to put a lot of time and effort into is a beautiful addition to your pack. S/he doesn't need to be trained to 'guard' you as this is the dogs inbred instinct. What the dog does need is responsible breeding, a responsible owner and firm, ongoing training. You need to be prepared, with your young children, to spend a great deal of time with the dog and the kids, establishing the kids position in the pack as higher than the dogs. Honestly, I have had to train my kids in how to deal with the dog as well as train the dog in how to deal with the kids! I would never bring a GS from working lines into my family, the prey instinct they are bred for is not suitable for a family environment. I would also not bring a GS into my home who has not been raised in a family environment as establishing a new pack with these unfamiliar little people would be very difficult.

Because of the misconceptions surrounding the breed, people are afraid of GS's irrespective of their breeding lines or training. If you are willing to put in an awful lot of time and effort, a GS puppy from a responsible breeder might be a good choice for you. Otherwise, I would look at other security measures.

[Jennifer13]

That is fantastic advice, nickle.

Dogs and children together require very close supervision and a lot of training (for both, like nickle said). It is well worth it if you've put the effort in. I can't see how someone else training the dog would help, because a great deal of a dog's responsiveness comes from being trained by you. While our dog will respond to everyone in our family, there is no doubt that I am the one he obeys and responds to best, because I am the one who put the hours of training into him. And he's just a pet, so that basically entailed sitting, coming, lying down, a few tricks, good behaviour on the lead and with other dogs, family rules around kids toys, etc, etc. We had him from one year of age, and like nickle's dog, he wasn't mature until two. It is like having a child in the house before then (except you don't have to take them everywhere with you!). He has no other job but to be our family dog, not our guard dog. TBH, I can't really see how guard dog and family dog go together at all. You're looking for gentleness and a lack of (ready) aggression in a family dog, which is completely contradictory to why you need a guard dog.

Have a think about why you need a guard dog. Often just having a dog around will provide a level of security (they bark, will still alert you if anyone comes onto your property, can be somewhat protective of their family, just aren't trained to 'guard'). Most intruders are put off by any dog being on a property. If, on the other hand, you are truly after a security guard level of protection, then you'll probably need a dog that is not closely involved with your family. Is there any other kind of security you would consider instead (ie alarm, security guard?).

[Phteven]

No way I would get a guard dog.
Not to live with my children.

A dog is a great deterrent to crimes against property and people but most studies indicate that a yappy little chihuahua is just as effective as a slavering doberman. Any dog will deter a casual intruder and a committed intruder will neutralise a dog no matter how well trained.

Get a family pet not a guard dog. I've never had one but I'm sure that a GS from a responsible breeder will be a great family pet however keep in mind that it is a large active dog that requires a lot of exercise. If exercise isn't part of your lifestyle don't get a dog that needs it. Find a dog that is happier with a sedentary lifestyle.

[LionsandBears]

Before you buy a trained guard dog, research current Victorian legislation, specifically the definition of "dangerous dog". The rules about owning a dangerous dog are very strict, with breaches resulting in heavy fines and possible prosecution. Also contact your local council to understand their requirements.

i do know of organisations that will train a dog for you. They then train the owners. I would make sure they are a reputable training organisation, if possible.

Our heeler x has a strong prey drive and is extremely territorial. He did not need to be trained as a guard dog - he is one by nature. However, we have worked strongly on his training to overcome his behavioural issues. Despite that, he is now classified as a menacing dog, which means being on lead and muzzled at all times off our property. This is due to dog fights, not attacking a person, but he is on his last chance and so are we.

GS's are beautiful dogs but they need a lot of intellectual stimulation, leadership and exercise.

[Phteven]

poor old R**. I'd hate to wear a muzzle.
Is it permanent or will he get parole one day?

[LionsandBears]

poor old R**. I'd hate to wear a muzzle.
Is it permanent or will he get parole one day?

He copes. It's that or no walks at all, so he's adapted. It is for at least 12 months. If there are no incidents in that time, we can appeal and they can remove the menacing dog title. Even then, to be safe, we'll need to have him on-lead at all times. He's fine with most other dogs, but if he sees a staffy/mastiff/pug looking dog, he attacks. The last incident was my fault for having him off lead without guaranteed voice control, when he saw a staffy cross I thought we were going to lose him. As it is, if he'd been declared a dangerous dog and wasn't allowed off the property at all, we would have had him put down. That kind of life would just be miserable for him.

sorry to hijack.

[misty]

Fabulous advice in this thread. We have two dogs, a lab and a beagle. Both very much family dogs, would never do anything aggressive to any child (either our own or anyone else's child) despite a LOT of rough play from the kids. But they are also naturally fiercely protective of our house and boundary and have chased off more then a few prowlers and would be robbers who didn't stop to look for a dog before trying to climb our back fence. They are super friendly to anyone who approaches them 'normally' but intelligent enough to understand what is 'abnormal' and a threat to their home and pack / family (us). They have only had minimal 'formal' dog obedience training whilst puppies.
Most dogs will have this protective instinct, training or no training.

A 'guard' dog in the other hand is a very very different matter. My dad had a guard dog when I was young. A gorgeous very well trained ridgeback. Us kids were never allowed near him unless in the presence of my father. Even mum would only approach the dog in certain circumstances. It simply wasn't safe. The dog 'knew' us, and never made an aggressive move towards any of us, but this dog was trained to attack intruders. That was its job. And the intruders may be people the dog had met on previous occaisions, so 'knowing' the dog wasn't enough if it decided you were an intruder.
That dog ended up being rehomed with a new master as my dad no longer had a need for a guard dog with a job change, and it was not at all suited to being a family pet. Rehoming him involved a good couple of months of training the new owner before he took physical control and ownership of the dog.

[Jaycee]

Charlotte, I don't know what circumstances are changing, however I would be looking into other forms of security that won't put your children's lives at risk.

[Teeki]

I agree with other posters here, that a guard dog is not a family dog, especially if has been raised and trained by someone away from your family and doesn't know you and your kids from a very young age.

We've got a lab. Apparently the perfect family pet. He's brilliant with DD, he's never given cause for concern around anyone we've let into our house. He's been beautifully trained by us, but even he has an instinct that I cannot control. At our old house the electricity metre was in the laundry. The metre reader just let himself in one day and our dog let him know that wasn't acceptable. Since then one of us had to be home to have the metre read as he was listed as dangerous by this man. If someone ever comes into our backyard uninvited the dog runs at them barking, he does this stomping run that sounds like thunder. He never gets close but at the same time the person always goes straight back out again.

I guess my point there is that you don't need a specifically trained guard dog to have a dog that will protect your home. I would be very concerned about adopting an older, unfamiliar, already trained guard specific dog with my kids around (and honestly, I probably wouldn't do it if I didn't have kids either). I think the point someone made earlier is also good - they listen most to the one that trained them. We had a German Shepherd growing up, and while he was good with my mum, brother and I, no one could control him like my dad. He was the pack leader.

[LimeSlice]

I totally agree with Nickle. We have always had Sheps, they are amazing animals, but they require just as much commitment as another child in terms of time, effort and money. When I was growing up, we had a family friend who was with the dog squad. His two girls were kept in their fully enclosed cages while at the house. They were not family pets. And while he kept them both when the retired, and they were as cherished by him as his own children, they were *never* part of the family, as a normal, family pet would be; there are real reasons why this is the way it is.

I also wanted to point out that most reputable breeders will not sell you a dog for what you are describing. They simply will not put their dog, or your family - or their reputation - in that kind of danger. It is unnecessary. So I think that you would have a hard time finding a reputable breeder to allow you to buy their dog in the first place, if you are honest about your intentions.

I am not quite sure what would warrant such excessive measures, but I would look at others before even considering allowing a true guard dog in my home with my children.

[Miss.September]

I totally agree on the comments about any dog can be protective. Our old golden retriever was as gentle as their reputation is, never an issue with anyone or anything. Happy for the meter reader to even come, she'd greet him no problems. Not a guard dog in any sense. But one day mum had someone come to the door acting in a manner that had her afraid and our dog stood beside mum, teeth bared, snarling and hair standing up. It was not her nature to do this, she was not trained to do this but she felt that there was a need to protect.

Our beagle barks only when there is an issue. She doesn't bark when a car arrives or people turn up unexpectedly. She carried on a treat though when there were people walking along the otherside of the fence when it was the middle of a work day and she knew that normally nobody would be there. Our c ocker spaniel also acts to guard, she even tried to bail my brother up when he came into the backyard and we weren't home. He was there to feed her when we were in hospital having DD1 but although he was somewhat familiar to her, it was totally unusual and in her world, totally wrong. She wouldn't eat the food he left for her either.

I don't know what sort of circumstances you're going to be living in where you feel you need a guard dog but maybe these stories of non-guard breeds might help you make a decision.

[Charlotte91]

So, my original question of "has someone done this" would be a no?

Thank you for all your opinions, but I have to listen to the people surrounding our change of circumstance. DH is looking at changing jobs, which would mean we would need protection should the need arise. But, I can't discuss the work for obvious reasons.

If someone has actual experience with this, please message me and this thread can be closed.

Ta.

[Teeki]

I guess there have been responses by people who have lived with a guard dog in the family, or know people who have, and the general recommendation is that hopefully there might be another option

[Phteven]

From a professional perspective......
I would never advise a client to get a guard dog to protect their family unless they wanted to pay for a handler as well.
For the really paranoid we generally suggest a well set up electronic system including CCTV, motion detectors, zoned alarms, external lighting, panic buttons and back to base monitoring.
Overcoming these things is much harder than shooting a dog.

There are also numerous tweaks that one can make to the built environment to make your home less intruder friendly.


ETA - having read the thread I believe that several people with experience with guard dogs and German Shepherds have indeed replied and the overwhelming consensus is that they don't believe that your children will be safe.