Bris (Jewish cirumcision cremony) do u know...

[Proud Mummy]

Hello
I am Catholic however hubby is Jewish and if we're having a boy, he would like it to have a Jewish Bris which is a cirumcision ceremony. Does anyone know a Rabbi in Melbourne that will do this even though I am not Jewish but Hubby is?

[C~Q]

Hi there, i'm pretty sure a Rabbi won't do it unless you don't mention the fact that you aren't Jewish. In the Jewish religion a child is only considered Jewish if the mother is. You could still get in done through a Dr but I doubt a Rabbi, unless you convert (that's what my Mum did )

[Yael]

You will be very very hard pressed to find a Rabbi here to do it if only your husband in Jewish.

I do know somebody (isn't a rabbi, but you actually don't need a Rabbi to do a Bris, you need a Mohel), who is mohel but is also a dr, and does non-Jewish babies in a more medical procedure, rather than the religious ceremony - but the end result is the same.

If you like i can give you his name and contact details.

Personally i believe as a religious Jewish women it is very wrong to decieve a rabbi and tell them something that isn't true, but i guess that final decision rests with you. Oh, and converting isn't a very easy option, it is very difficult and takes many years to do.

Good luck

[C~Q]

Yael I didn't mean lie to the Rabbi. I meant her DH could do it/organise it without her being present. From memory women aren't allowed to be there?.

[Jodie259]

I am married to an Israeli Jew.... although I am not Jewish myself.
I have a HUGE respect for the jewish religion, but I have not been bought up with any religion (although I was baptised as a child). I do not feel comfortable converting to any religion for the sake of other people (husband, family, child).

Anyway... I really want my son to be bought up with the Jewish faith and education. And I really wanted him to be circumsized by someone who was Jewish. We phoned a number of 'reform' synagogues who could not help us out. They did recommend some doctors though. We organised a Jewish doctor who would come to our house... but then someone recommended us a Mohel who came to our house and performed the Bris. It had to be a private ceremony, which is what we wanted anyway. He didn't do the whole blessing thing either, as I have seen at other Bris'. He has also done my friends Bris' who are all Jewish.

He was fully aware that I was not Jewish, so we were not deceiving him in any way.

I will not put his name here.... but if you email me (via either of the websites below) - I will forward his phone number to you.
He lives in Balaclava - and we lived in Keysborough. He doesn't drive, so we picked him up, then dropped him back home. He was really lovely, and very understanding.

[Yael]

Rachel - there is absolutely nothing wrong with women being there. I was at my sons bris, and at many others. Women definetly come. When held in a synagogue, women are traditionally seperated from the men, but are still there and can watch if they so desire. Many people also have them in their homes, and women are def. there. Part of the ceremony involves the mother or a female passing the baby.

I'm not having a go, but even for her husband to omit the facts of the situation is slightly decietful. In a way you are forcing a mohel to do something that he wouldn't be happy with if he knew the full situation. The child is according to religious law under no obligation to have a bris, hence why the mohel won't normally perform one. There are plently of great drs (Jewish or non Jewish), who can do it, and the end result is the same.

Caro - i'm not sure exactly what would go on if you don't know the rabbi (we did it within our community, the rabbi was the one who married us, and the Mohel does all of the rabbi's son's, hence not being asked questions), but i know they do ask questions, explain, mini counselling type things when couples get marries, so i'ld presume its the same.

In Jewish law, religion is passed through the mother (one reason being its a lot easier to know with certainty who the mother is, a lot harder to know who the father is IYKWIM?). In orthodox Judaism there is no half Jewish, you either are or you aren't, regardless of the religion of your father. There is always the option to convert, but like i said before, its not encourgared within Judaism (we are strongly against missionaries), so its made to be a long process so you know the person is committed and really means it. My BIL converted, i think it took him around 5 years once he formally began the process.

There are pictures on my son's bris on our website for anyone who is interested in seeing what its like. It is normally held on the 8th day (as long as the baby is healthy enough, i.e. not jaundiced etc), and its when they are named. Girls are normally named on the first Saturday after their birth.

Yael

[Yael]

Jodie - i was hoping you would see this thread, as i knew you had been in the same situation.

I know there are some mohel's who do it, i just know they are normally hard to find, and they normally won't do it with the whole public ceremony thing to go with it.

What's with mohels who don't drive - we also had to pick ours up and drop him home

[Jodie259]

What's with mohels who don't drive - we also had to pick ours up and drop him home

- Maybe it's the same guy??

MMmmm.... just looked at your website - it IS the same guy!!!

And it was HARD to find a mohel willing to do it. If someone hadn't referred Rabbi V, we were running out of time and would have had to go with a doctor instead. I am glad we could get the Rabbi to do it - for the sake of Yariv's family back in Israel. They are happy that Yariv has a 'good life' in Australia - but they have no idea about the Jewish community in Australia - and I want them to know that there is a strong community here for him.

I also hope that Shaun will embrace the Jewish faith himself. He will be learning Hebrew, naturally. In fact, we are sure his first word was ABA. (I think it is babababa)... but Yariv is convinced it's Aba!!! He said Mama yesterday for the first time.... (warm fuzzy feelings).

ooops... sorry to hijack this post.
but contact me if you want the rabbi's number.

[Yael]

Its actually with a W not a V, but how funny it was the same man! He was great, and he came a few times to check on DA afterwards which was fantastic.

Only problem was we had to have it in the middle of the day because of his other job, (normally they are held first thing in the mornig), and cos it was a week day less people could come.

DA also said Aba, and we keep saying "No, Tatty (Yiddish for Daddy)". I'm Mummy, but a lot of people are Ima also.

Our good friends aren't Israeli, and the father speaks to them only in Hebrew (he taught himself mostly), and the kids understand and speak fluent Hebrew. I think its a great skill to have, (especially with family overseas), i just6 wish we spoke Hebrew well enough!

[Jodie259]

sorry to hijack this thread.... but Yael I have to tell you - DA looked ADORABLE in his purim outfit!!!!!! We didn't do anything for purim this year as Shaun is too young to get into it. But next year we will do something.

[Yael]

Jodie - thanks! my camera ran out of batteries, so you can't see any of his back, but my sister has more pics.

She made the whole costume (was up until 6am that morning.. she tends to go overboard), and even dyed a body suit black when she couldn't find anything!

We didn't do anything last year, but now i've got to start planning for the next one, as i want to dress the 2 of them up together.

[Pandora]

Proud Mummy, I do hope you will find a Mohel who will help you.

OK this is a serious question, prob for you, Yael.

What about people like me, who are baptised (but not practising) Catholic, all of my family are Catholic, but when I did my family tree discovered that, tracing the Female lineage (is that a real phase of did I make it up) my mums family back 4 or 5 generations, they were from Germany and very probably Jewish. So I'm talking mums, mums, mums, mums, mums etc. that far back, but all women.

Assuming that they were Jewish, does that mean i'm Jewish too? I was obsessed with this for a good few of my teenage years, as I'm interested in theology anyway...

[C~Q]

Ok, my Father is Jewish, my Mother was not. My Father wanted any children he had to be brought up as Jews and any son to have a Bris. For this reason my Mother converted. She converted before their marriage and they only knew each other for a couple of years before they got married so I don't believe it took 5 years but I will ask her. She converted because she loves him and knew how important it was for him and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. They have been divorced for 11 years and she still goes to Synagogue.

Proudmummy said her DH wants a son to have a Bris and she is not willing to convert. I wouldn't suggest that he lie to anyone and if he was asked then explain the situation. As someone else has put abpve, depending on the person he may go ahead and do it anyway.

My Mother always told me that she was not allowed at my Brothers Bris and that she was in the other room with all the other women, again i'll ask her. This was 35 years ago in London but I doubt that makes any difference.

I really didn't mean to offend anyone. This is my opinion.

[Yael]

Rachel - you didn't offend me at all, I was just stating my views on the subject.

Length of conversions are usually up to the disrection of the individual Rabbi and the appropriate Beis Din (Rabbinical court that awards the conversion). It also depends whether it was done through a Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Synagogue. As we are (Ultra) Orthodox, I can only speak for my experience within that community, but i know that it is a lot easier to convert through Reform or Conservative, but the conversations are not widely accepted, so people should be aware of that before they go in.

I believe (once again, not reform so can't speak for them), that in Reform your mother wouldn't have needed to convert, I believe they feel that 1 Jewish parent in enough?

Like i said before, in a synagogue women and men are seperated, either women upstairs and men downstairs (women can see through as its more like a gallery), or both on the same level with a curtain type material dividing. A bris is normally held first thing after morning prayers, so they won't exactly take down the division (called a mechitzah) for the bris. Maybe that is why your mother was in a different room, more out of practicality. I was just saying according to Jewish law (Halachah), there is nothing wrong with women being there.

You're on the Gold Coast right? My friends used to work in the Chabad House in Brisband, i can't remember which Rabbi was in charge though, but he was very nice.

Caro - because converting is not encouraged (infact, you have to actively discourage people), and there are a lot of laws people are obligated to follow once they convert, you want to make sure that 1) they are committed to living that kind of lifestyle afterwards, and 2) have learn enough about the religion to know what is allowed and what isn't. There are other reasons bought down by commentators on why Judaism is passed through the mother (mainly for spiritual reasons i believe), but the reason i gave you is one of the practical reasons given.

Rachel - if ones mother mother mother mother etc is Jewish, than the person is Jewish no matter what religion they might be practising. Judaism is not something you can get rid of by converting to another religion, one would always be Jewish. If you really believe you might be Jewish, you would need supporting documentation, normally in the form of a Jewish marriage certificate (ketubah) etc, and the subsequent birth certificates. There are many records still held in Germany today for people to trace things, i needed to find some documentations for when i got married. If one couldn't find the documents, but it was generally accepted that they were, normally the person would undergo an easier type of conversion, one done just to make 100% sure. Feel free to ask any more questions if you like.

[Jodie259]

My husband and I phoned three reform synagogues - and they wouldn't perform a bris on Shaun as I wasn't Jewish. So they still have some 'rules' that are fairly strict.

I am sure that the reform conversion is nowhere near as long (1-2 years) as the orthodox conversion (3-5 years). A friend of mine was "married" to an Israeli.... and she did a Reform convertion. But as soon as he got his papers, he was out of there! But she's now living in Israel, and has been able to get an Israeli passport - so we were surprised that they recognised her "Jewish" in Israel.

I had a landlord who lives in Glen Huntly. She was European (not sure where from)... and she was married to a Jew. They had a number of children. He died and was buried. Then she found out she would not be able to be buried with him as she wasn't Jewish. So she converted after he died... so she could be with him in eternity. How sweet is that?!

One thing that surprised me was that if I was to ever consider converting; my children would be regarded as Jewish - regardless of what age they were. I thought I would have to be Jewish before they were born. (correct me if I'm wrong Yael). But at the end of the day, I will only consider conversion if I really want to be involved in a religion. I have 100% respect for everyone's religious beliefs, but I'm not at the stage of wanting/needing to convert. Funny enough - many of my Jewish clients (which is about 80%) - all say I'm more Jewish than they are!!! I wouldn't say that though! Just because I hang a sedar plate, a hamsa, and a map of Israel in my salon, doesn't make me Jewish!

And as Yael says... women can be at the Bris. I've been to a number of them, and there are just as many women as men watching. One of the mums stayed in another room as she didn't want to watch her son have it done.... but that was just a personal thing for her.

[Proud Mummy]

Wow! Thanks for all the info! I've sent you an email Jodie for the details, thanks
Yeah theres so much I didnt know and have learnt a lot from you guys, I really appreciate it

[Yael]

Jodie - the info i heard was more in relation to reform in the US, which is a lot more lax than reform here. I believe reform here is more like the US conversative - confusing i know!

Like i said, i could be wrong, i'm not in the reform community and never have been, its just what i've picked up from newspapers and other places.

Caro - a bris is just the Hebrew word for circumcision. I will try and write a bit about the ceremony (i've 1/2 done one on the wedding, just have to find it). And i'll answer the rest of your questions soon, just got really bad m/s atm (had my first spew this afternoon.. i guess at almost 9 weeks it wasn't such a bad run)...

Have to go lie down.. But feel free to ask any questions you want, they are nothing i haven't heard (or thought myself) before (i didn't grow up religious, or barely Jewish myself).

Proud Mummy - glad some of it helped. If the mohel Jodie suggest can't help, i can send you the info on the other guy.

[hannanat]

aaw Yael, hope you feel better soon hun.