Saying no to germ theory.

[RockinSAHD]

Hello, I'm not sure this is exactly the right part of the forum but it seems the most relevant.


Do you believe that the idea of germs causing disease is false?


I had someone say to me the other day that my idea of what causes disease and illness is very different to theirs. This seemed like a throwaway comment at first but got me thinking. To say that to someone who's spent the last 15 years staring into microscopes and working closely with bacteria and yeasts seems a bit like saying to a sailor that the sea doesn't exist? I'm confused, can someone fill me in?

[Yeddi]

Hmm... I don't think anyone would say that germs can't cause disease, but there is some debate about HOW they cause disease - germ theory vs cellular theory. Is this what you are talking about?

[AnyDream]

I for one believe that the pathogen is just one factor in the existance of disease in any individual.

A good example of this is cancer. There is some evidence that viruses may be involved in triggering some cancers. And yet some individuals who are exposed develop cancers and others do not- so it's the sum total of the other inflammatory vs immune processes going on in the body that ultimately determines whether their body knocks out the few renegade cells where they started or whether the disease progresses to a point where there are symptoms and ultimately the death of the individual.

Some of the inflammatory processes that encourage or allow the development of disease involve things like - total load of toxins from the environment, degree of oxygenation in the body (smoking vs exercise), balance of good vs bad fats in the body, ongoing raised blood sugar levels. Some of the immune processes that discourage or halt the development of disease involve things like - exercise, the stress-relaxation response, melatonin-Vit D relationship (involving sleeping well in darkness and getting out into sunshine), and access to plentiful nutrients like Omega 3s and bioflavenoids.

We all know intuitively that eating well, getting enough sleep, exercising, and relaxing are good for us. We all understand that when we're feeling "run down" by not doing these things enough that we fall ill more often and take longer to recover. No surprises in any of this.

[RockinSAHD]

You might be surprised Yeddi. I agree with you 100% Marydean, I don't think any person alive wouldn't say that if your not treating yourself properly your going to get sick.

...With the exception of some fast foods that are so full of chemicals that they might be potently anti microbials!
I know peoples bodies who eat lots of processed foods break down a lot slower because of the preservatives but that's for another thread!

[AnyDream]

You might be surprised Yeddi. I agree with you 100% Marydean, I don't think any person alive wouldn't say that if your not treating yourself properly your going to get sick.

...With the exception of some fast foods that are so full of chemicals that they might be potently anti microbials!
I know peoples bodies who eat lots of processed foods break down a lot slower because of the preservatives but that's for another thread!

Well I have to tell you about the powdered cordial that's in the army ration packs. To the best of my knowledge it's just plain cordial (dried) but it has an antimicrobial effect, and they use it without any additional water purifying tablets. Scary.

[Yeddi]

You might be surprised Yeddi.

I would assume then that anyone who says that germs aren't part of disease then would be misinterpreting Cellular Theory. Cellular theory's premise is that diseases are associated with a particular condition rather than simply a micro-organism - in that germs can only create disease in the right biological environment, so that if someone does catch a disease it is because they are in a state of unhealth that allows that germ to have the power to cause disease, not because the germ has the power to cause disease of its own accord ITMS. I could see how someone could take this theory as saying germs don't cause disease, bad health does, but it's a little more complicated than that.

[RockinSAHD]

No, I'm talking about people who believe that germs don't cause disease, I assume that either bacteria etc don't exist or don't play a part in disease. It's a pretty well established community in the US, I'm not sure about here.

I'm assuming that's what the comment was about because I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with all the comments made so far. I think that even the most hard nosed scientific skeptic type would agree that the human body has an amazing ability to prevent disease under the right conditions.

Except for Marydeans comment about the cordial, thats wrong in so many ways!!!

[Yeddi]

I've had a look around for these American groups, but all I could find was stuff like below which sounds very much like Bechamp's Cellular Theory to me.

From "Germs don't cause disease, you do"

It is commonly thought that we would be dropping like flies from the plague and other epidemics if it weren’t for medicine. There is no doubt that infectious disease can be devastating. For example the 1918 Spanish bird flu pandemic which began among military recruits in Haskel, Kansas, spread throughout the U.S. killing 675,000. It then moved across the Atlantic killing millions of soldiers and on to colonial India taking 20 million lives. Contrary to popular belief, however, diseases like the flu, polio, measles, and typhus were not conquered by humans. Note in the accompanying graphs that the vaccines or chemotherapeutic agents that are credited with vanquishing the scourges were introduced after the majority of the decline in the diseases had already occurred!2 For modern medicine to claim responsibility is like a person taking credit for dropping the level of the ocean by bucketing water out as the tide was receding. Infectious diseases have a natural ebb and flow and so does the general immunity of the population. That is the reason epidemics decline, not because of human intervention.

We can’t even eradicate the mosquito, a creature which we can see and for which we can examine every life stage in detail. How are we going to eradicate microorganisms, which, if crowded side-by-side, would require numbers in the trillions to occupy the space of one mosquito? Creatures in the wild thrive in filth. Rabbits eat their stool, vultures eat rotten carcasses, and dogs will roll in the most putrid, decaying material they can find and then lick themselves clean.

Children constantly have their fingers in their mouths after wallowing on the floor, playing in the toilet, or exploring the garbage pail. We adults aren’t exactly sterile in our habits, either. Up until relatively recently, a bath once a year was considered plenty in western society. That frequency of bathing, or less, is common elsewhere in the world to this day. Billions wipe themselves with their fingers (usually with the left hand, a reason it is customary to shake with the right) and yet live in societies that rank higher on health scores than nations with bidets, perfumed toilet paper, disinfectant aerosols, and soaps.

Don’t buy the simplistic germ-based view of how we get disease. True, certain pathogenic organisms can be associated with disease, but likewise so are crows and buzzards associated with road-kill. Buzzards are not responsible for road-kill, neither are pathogenic organisms responsible for disease. They are both opportunists. They wait until prey is weakened and then they dive in.

The resistance of healthy tissue is demonstrated by the effective medical use of maggots to clean infected and necrotic tissue from wounds. These revolting little creatures will digest all the rotting tissue but leave the healthy tissue intact. In microcosm, infectious disease is like the carnivore-prey drama occurring throughout nature. Predators always choose the easiest meal: the unfit, the weak, and disabled.

We are not victims. Germs do not ‘get us.’

Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?

[RockinSAHD]

Maybe, thats an interesting quote, have a look at this:

My first encounter with one of these people was when a chiropractor told me, “Germs don’t cause disease: if they did, we’d all be dead.” He believed all disease was caused by misalignments of the spine. He had never been immunized. He said he simply could not catch any infectious disease as long as he kept his spine straight. He was so convinced germs couldn’t hurt him that he would be willing to walk into the midst of an Ebola epidemic with no protection. He knew he would emerge unscathed.

I told her that the smallpox virus can be seen on electron microscopy of the fluid from the blisters. She said it was just cellular debris. I told her the smallpox and chickenpox viruses are distinctive and have been fully analyzed and can be easily told apart. Their entire genomes have been sequenced. No one could possibly confuse them with cellular debris. She wasn’t convinced. She quoted Dr. Vivian Vetrano:

As Natural Hygienists, we know that there is no such thing as a viral disease. There are simply states of impaired health with cell degeneration. That the virus is an entity and that it occasions cellular degeneration is a moot question. The so-called viruses may simply be the various toxic debris that Hygienists have been condemning and shouting about for many years. Not wanting to keep the toxin in the bloodstream, the body may find a means of encapsulating it in a protein membrane and injecting it into a cell to get it out of the bloodstream. Eventually these toxins pervert the metabolism of the cell and cause cellular degeneration. The virus may be only encapsulated protein, the body having surrounded it with a membrane to prevent an excess from upsetting the system. The modern high protein diet may be the reason for so-called viral infections.

RFL went on to explain that

Smallpox is a disease that is instituted by and for the body for purposes of body purification. Its causes are the same as all other diseases — toxemia. Therefore, it cannot be transmitted and it cannot be “prevented” by means of injecting serums or poisons into the bloodstream.

I'm not judging any of this, I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm still assuming this is what the person meant, as this is the other side from what I believe about disease. If your thinking that I'm taking the ****, I have to remind you that until recently I assumed that people who didn't vaccinate were confused but I've come to realise that intelligent and well thought out people come into this category too.

[RockinSAHD]

Quickest way to test it would be to ask Mr straight spine to snort a line of anthrax spores. One suspects he'd have a good excuse for not doing it....

That was my immediate reaction but maybe they wouldn't get sick or would have another explanation?

The human mind is a powerful and mysterious thing.