I think I'll step out now. I totally respect everyone's point's of view but I can see this turning quiet nasty and disrespectful. :(
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I think I'll step out now. I totally respect everyone's point's of view but I can see this turning quiet nasty and disrespectful. :(
I don't think it has to be disrespectful Maz, if there is disagreeance. I think through discussion we can all learn things. :hug:
I have learnt something from this thread defently.
Its one thing to be opinionated and know what is important to you, its another to be open and be able to listen to what other say also.
Maz no need to step out at all :hug:
I LOVE that this is a respectful community where things can be discussed and opposed in a loving way.
If people don't share their experiences (like my decisions based on 2 personal accounts) then we don't learn.
Likewise, if ever a day comes that there is a definitive study that proves vaccines are absolutely no-risk, my kids will be first in line to get them!
This is slightly changing tack, but i wanted to say a few things about the talk of the sudden huge increase in ASD-type diagnosis that have been mentioned.
When i studied Celtic Civilisation (i know, random, read on) one of the things i looked at was town census'. Those have often got people named and described from mediaeval Ireland because surnames really weren't all that commonly used at the time. In those you find "idiots" mentioned again and again, and classifications of idiots - "idiots with lumps under the necks" - that's DS. "Idiots of the small heads" that's microcephaly. "Idiots with the large heads" - hydrocephaly. Again and again you find mentions of "Bird idiots" and "screaming fools" and the contemporary view is that these people had autism of some sort ("birds" was a reference to flapping the hands and "squawking"). Alongside these you will find "the iron smith named Eoghan, mute or nearly so" and references to people who spoke "only in tongues" and can only be understood by relatives and i did find one mention of someone described by the monk as "the idiot who counts" - i must add "idiot" is very offensive and non-PC to us modern people, but in those days it was a descriptive term and those "idiots" mentioned were loved and well-cared for within their own little communities, however odd they seemed to the majority. These disorders have been recognised and common for centuries, but the milder end was dismissed as "wicked, naughty, obtuse, twisted" (children) and "eccentric, reclusive, obsessive" (adults) and the more distant end "possessed, evil, retarded, idiotic" (children and adults alike). I know my dad was beaten for displaying traits at school, each and every time, and often at home too and that in a class of 61 there were 2 other boys who had behaviours somewhat like his. I was recently given my great great great grandfather's diary, freshly translated from Russian, and it was a shock to read how many completely obvious traits he was displaying, and he was just beaten and sent to a military-style tutor. His diary opens "we were all difficult children for my mother who was baffled by us, but for my father i think he saw his own machinery in our forms" so i'm fairly sure HIS father was somewhere out there on the spectrum too. They had one brother who couldn't be educated at all (he and 4 other siblings died in childhood/teens of flu) but the rest grew up and 4 (of 9 born) lived to adulthood. One sister was a writer-recluse, the rest, another sister and 2 boys, including my great great grandfather, became chemists or engineers.
The psych i mentioned in my other thread says historically these things have been dismissed unless they're severe enough for need for dx, and then mis-dx based on assumption, pre-conception and poor practice. There was a recent study in the UK (i think) which found that using the same diagnostic criteria for both groups the number of adults with ASD-like conditions is the same as the number of children with them. This doesn't discount vaccines as a factor for some children, of course not, but it does seem to indicate that there has not been the big scary jump in cases some people assume. Diagnosis and understanding are growing, which has to be good news, clearly there is much still to learn.
Bx
In refences to the studies done already, I have said it before and will stand on hill tops and scream it till I'm blue in the face but the studies I have looked at are hopelessly flawed when it comes to "assessing autism" Most are too short looking for symptoms from 2-4yrs. I know as a parent and a teacher that many kids go undignoised until 8-9. Some use an outdated criteria and the general methods of observation are severely lacking. Ask anyone who has had to get their child diagnoised and they will tell you what a hard road it is to find a diagnoises when we know something is wrong and they are expecting to discover how many cases of autism there are by asking parents to complete a checklist and a observation by a paed or psyc??? I know myself from filling out said checklists it is very hard to look at your childs behaviour and tick negative things on a checklist - even when you know there is something wrong, let alone when you are thrust into a study.
What is needed is a longitudinal study up to age 12 where parents, teachers and professionals are involved in indepth observation. Where all concerned know that autism is a varied and spectrum disorder and not all children display classic symptoms all the time and we need people who know autism and have been there to be involved in the designing of the test so it is relevent for families involved in the study and they don't feel frightened by admitting that their child is a little out there.
Paradise Lost - absolutely! Autism has been there through all of history and I read a great statement the other day about how different the world would be without people from the spectrum to enhance the world we live in! Most of the amazing people we have in the world, great thinkers, writers, passionate people have traits of autism. I believe we are currently being inundated with autism becasue of the society we live in and the schooling system children are working in at the moment. Schooling has seen a shift from rote learning and book learning to group work, problem solving and an increase in giving children choices, involving more movement, colour and play into the curriculum. Which is great, unless you have autistic traits. I also think that particularly boys with sensory processing issues are more likely to have issues in modern day classrooms where we are driven to school, have to sit still in the mornings so children can be supervised and then cooped up in a classroom for 6 hrs. Kids, boys and ASD childs need to move, run, walk, bounce, whatever and we are restricting there every move! I hate it. If I had all the money in the world I would open my own school for kids with asd, adhd and sensory processing - what a beautiful place that would be!
Inanna I am not aware of any studies that have found a link between vaccination and autism. Please post references for these studies. I can access most journals so can download them to read if you will tell me where to look.
If they have not been published in peer-reviewed journals it is hard to take them seriously at all (I'm putting that very mildly). It is best if they have been published in top-ranking peer reviewed journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, the Lancet, the Journal of the American Medical Association etc. Studies that have been published and subsequently retracted by their authors or been discredited by subsequent research published in similarly high-ranking journals are probably problematic at best and might be outright wrong (yes, scientists do make mistakes, but the good thing about research is that eventually a body of research will confirm or deny any particular result, so we can trust things that have been repeatedly confirmed, such as the lack of a link between autism and vaccination).
Mummato2: nothing is without risk. Have you been on a road today? Do your kids play sport at all? For that matter, did you give them anything to eat or drink (or nothing, obviously)? All of these things have risks. Risk is an unavoidable part of life. The question is what is the higher risk. For varicella (chicken pox), it works like this:
From the disease:
From the vaccine::
1 in 100 000 patients develop encephalitis (brain inflammation). About 3 in 100 000 patients die. Infection during pregnancy can result in congenital malformations in the baby. Onset of infection in the mother from 5 days before to 2 days after delivery results in severe infection in the newborn baby in up to one-third of cases.
Your decision about this vaccination appears to be that you are prepared to risk your children dying of chickenpox rather than risking them getting a mild rash or fever. Clearly the rash is much more common, but death is rather more drastic. I think your decision is very obviously the wrong one.:
About 1 in 5 has a local reaction or fever. A mild varicella-like rash may develop in 3–5 in a 100 recipients.
tenar reading your words is like reading my thoughts sometimes! Thank you! :hug:
Bxxx
:shakehead: Wow. So now we judge other parents on their choice and state they are wrong.:
Very nice.
M2t... I didn't vac my last 2 against chicken pox...2 of my eldest who were vacced have now had it twice, mild doses we didn't really notice, who passed it on like wildfire...
My youngest 2 have it, were perfectly fine, now have a more TRUE immunity, and have a MUCH smaller risk of passing it on to anyone else, as they have a SMALLER chance of getting it again... so which of my kids is offering more "herd immuinity"?? My non vac'd kids!!
( and yes, peer reviwer research does state that non vac kids who have had chicken pox have MORE protection than vac kids,... I dont have it here ATM, but it is very easily found..)
Dont let anyone tell you you are WRONG, your not, your a mum who is free to make her OWN choice for your OWN child babe... :hug:
Wow Tenar. Judgement huh?:
Well those risks 1 in 5 of localised reaction are enough for me to sit up and say "local I can see, what else is going on".
My choice is INFORMED. I would NOT rather see my child die than risk a vaccine but you cannot without an absolute doubt tell me vaccination is safe? Chicken Pox vax is only relatively new. How many children did you hear about dying from complications? I'd rather take my risk in 1 in 100 000 - NOT 1 in 5.
Here are some Pub Med articles of interest and you'll soon see why this decision was reached without GUILT coupled with the people I know personally suffering from doing what they perceived as right for their children
I’d rather treat a sick child then injure a healthy one. You can change your mind and vaccinate, but you can’t unvaccinate if you change your mind.
Vaccines and Autoimmune Diseases
1. Vaccines and diabetes - Studies showing an unexplained increase among children
The rise of childhood type 1 diabetes in the 20th ... [Diabetes. 2002] - PubMed result
Newsroom
CDC's Diabetes Program - Data & Trends - Prevalence of Diabetes - Prevalence of Diagnosed Diabetes by Age, United States, 1980-2006 Graph showing diabetes doubling from 1980-2000 - Study linking vaccines and authors comments
bmj.com Sign In Page
Vaccine Induced Inflammation Linked To Epidemic Of Type 2 Diabetes And Metabolic Syndrome
BCG vaccination and GAD65 and IA-2 autoantibodies ... [Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002] - PubMed result
Clustering of cases of insulin dependent diabetes ... [Autoimmunity. 2002] - PubMed result
The timing of immunization affects the development... [Autoimmunity. 1996] - PubMed result
Childhood immunisation and diabetes mellitus. [N Z Med J. 1996] - PubMed result
Association between type 1 diabetes and Hib vaccine Classen DC, Classen JB. The timing of pediatric immunization and the risk of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Infectious Diseases in Clinical Practice 1997;6:449-54. Classen JB, Classen DC. Hemophilus vaccine and increased IDDM, causal relationship likely. BMJ 1999;eBMJ:
bmj.com Rapid Responses for Karvonen et al., 318 (7192) 1169-1172.
Pancreatitis following hepatitis A vaccination. [Eur J Med Res. 2000] - PubMed result Pancreatitis following hepatitis A vaccination
Life threatening pancreatitis following varicella ... [Med J Malaysia. 2000] - PubMed result Life threatening pancreatitis following varicella vaccination: cause, association or co-incidence?
Vaccinations may induce diabetes-related autoantib... [Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2003] - PubMed result Vaccinations may induce diabetes-related autoantibodies in one-year-old children
2. Vaccines and asthma - Studies showing an unexplained increase amoung children
Has the prevalence of asthma increased in children? Evidence from a long term study in Israel.
Prevalence of asthma among schoolchildren in Patras, Greece: four questionnaire surveys during 1978?2003
Asthma prevalence in 1973, 1988 and 2003
Hometown Has Been Shutdown - People Connection Blog: AIM Community Network Graph showing asthma rate doubles from 1980-2008 highest increase in the 0-14 year range - Studies linking vaccines
Delay in diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus vaccinatio... [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2008] - PubMed result DPT vaccination delay may reduce asthma risk in children
Bronchial hyperreactivity to histamine induced by ... [Agents Actions. 1984] - PubMed result This suggests a hyperreactivity of the parasympathetic, cholinergic pathways as a result of H. influenzae vaccination
Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood... [Epidemiology. 1997] - PubMed result The 23 children who received no diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus (DPT) and polio immunizations had no recorded asthma episodes or consultations for asthma or other allergic illness before age 10 years; in the immunized children, 23.1% had asthma episodes, 22.5% asthma consultations, and 30.0% consultations for other allergic illness
A model for experimental asthma: provocation in gu... [Bull Eur Physiopathol Respir. 1987] - PubMed result but provocation in B. pertussis-sensitized guinea-pigs seems to be a good model for bronchial asthma
Pertussis vaccination and asthma: is there a link? [JAMA. 1994 Aug 24-31] - PubMed result Pertussis vaccination and asthma: is there a link?
Effects of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus... [J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2000] - PubMed result DTP or tetanus vaccination appears to increase the risk of allergies and related respiratory symptoms in children and adolescents
http://www.fda.gov/Cber/label/prevnarLB.pdf In analyses of secondary safety outcomes, the adjusted relative risk of hospitalization for reactive airways disease was 1.23 (95% CI: 1.11, 1.35).
The relationship between vaccine refusal and self-... [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2005] - PubMed result Parents who refuse vaccinations reported less asthma and allergies in their unvaccinated children.
3. Vaccines and allergies
World Allergy report calls for urgent worldwide collaboration to tackle global increase in allergies
Pertussis adjuvant prolongs intestinal hypersensit... [Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 1999] - PubMed result exposure to bacterial pathogens may prolong the normally transient immune responsiveness to inert food antigens
The effects of Haemophilus influenzae vaccination ... [Eur J Pharmacol. 1980] - PubMed result results indicate an increased sensitivity to antigenic challenge and suggest that the functioning of beta-adrenoceptors was decreased as a result of H. influenzae vaccination
A model for experimental asthma: provocation in gu... [Bull Eur Physiopathol Respir. 1987] - PubMed result B. pertussis not only alters adrenergic function but provocation in B. pertussis-sensitized guinea-pigs seems to be a good model for bronchial asthma
Aluminium phosphate but not calcium phosphate stim... [Allergy. 1978] - PubMed result It is hypothesized that the regular application of aluminium compound-containing vaccines on the entire population could be one of the factors leading to the observed increase of allergic diseases
Immunoglobulin E and G responses to pertussis toxi... [Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 1994] - PubMed result indicates that the role of immunization for the development of allergy merits further studies
Multiple vaccination effects on atopy. [Allergy. 1999] - PubMed result Multiple vaccination effects on atopy
Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine ... [Clin Immunol. 2001] - PubMed result a potential side effect of vaccination with live attenuated viruses may be an increase in the expression of IgE
4. Vaccine and arthritis - prevalence
Elsevier - case reports
Arthritis following combined vaccine against diphtheria, polyomyelitis, and tetanus toxoid immunization against diphtheria, poliomyelitis and tetanus toxoid may cause arthritis (2 Case studies)
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies Chronic arthropathy associated with rubella vaccination
Rheumatoid polyarthritis after rubella. Rheumatoid polyarthritis after rubella
The development of rheumatoid arthritis after reco... [J Rheumatol. 1998] - PubMed result Recombinant hepatitis B vaccine may trigger the development of RA in MHC class II genetically susceptible individuals
Rheumatic disorders developed after hepatitis B va... [Rheumatology (Oxford). 1999] - PubMed result Hepatitis B vaccine might be followed by various rheumatic conditions and might trigger the onset of underlying inflammatory or autoimmune rheumatic diseases
Arthritis following combined vaccine against dipht... [Clin Exp Rheumatol. 2000 Mar-Apr] - PubMed result Although our cases suggest that immunization against diphtheria, poliomyelitis and tetanus toxoid may cause arthritis, additional cases must be reported before studies aimed at confirming this possibility are considered
Patients who develop inflammatory polyarthritis (I... [Br J Rheumatol. 1997] - PubMed result In a small number of susceptible individuals, immunization may thus act as a trigger for RA
Measles virus-specific antibodies and immunoglobul... [Infect Immun. 1979] - PubMed result
5. Vaccine and Gulf War Illness/Chronic Fatigue
Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induc... [Neuromolecular Med. 2007] - PubMed result findings suggest a possible role for the aluminum adjuvant in some neurological features associated with GWI
[Lessons from macrophagic myofasciitis: towards de... [Rev Neurol (Paris). 2003] - PubMed result Multiple vaccinations performed over a short period of time in the Persian gulf area have been recognized as the main risk factor for Gulf War syndrome
Cellular immune activation in Gulf War veterans. [J Clin Immunol. 2004] - PubMed result multisymptom illness in Gulf War veterans is characterized by ongoing Th1-type immune activation
Fatigue in Cambodia veterans. [QJM. 2000] - PubMed result of which retrospective recollection of side-effects of vaccines and causal attributions also have been shown to be relevant in studies on Gulf-related illness
Role of vaccinations as risk factors for ill healt... [BMJ. 2000] - PubMed result Multiple vaccinations in themselves do not seem to be harmful but combined with the "stress" of deployment they may be associated with adverse health outcomes
Gulf War syndrome: is it due to a systemic shift i... [Lancet. 1997] - PubMed result Factors that could lead to a Th2 shift among Gulf War veterans include exposure to multiple Th2-inducing vaccinations under stressful circumstances
AlOH3-adjuvanted vaccine-induced macrophagic myofa... [Neuromuscul Disord. 2006] - PubMed result AlOH3-adjuvanted vaccine-induced macrophagic myofasciitis in rats is influenced by the genetic background.
Macrophagic myofasciitis in childhood: a controver... [Pediatr Neurol. 2005] - PubMed result The presence of aluminum inclusions in these macrophages points to an inappropriate reaction to aluminum used as an adjuvant in some vaccines (7 Case studies)
[Macrophagic myofasciitis: inflammatory, vaccinati... [Dtsch Med Wochenschr. 2003] - PubMed result Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF) is a rare inflammatory muscle disorder characterized by a characteristic infiltration of muscle tissue by PAS-positive macrophages, which is caused by pathological persistence of vaccine-derived aluminium hydroxide
Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode in a 7-month-old ... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005] - PubMed result The report describes hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode, encourages reporting of vaccine-associated adverse events (Case study)
Pediatric macrophagic myofasciitis associated with... [Clin Neuropathol. 2006 Jul-Aug] - PubMed result MMF should be considered in the evaluation of children with failure to thrive, hypotonia, and muscle weakness
6. Measles and MS
Measles-specific antibodies in sera and cerebrospi... [Infect Immun. 1980] - PubMed result
The relationship between measles virus-specific an... [Acta Neurol Scand Suppl. 1977] - PubMed result
Antibodies to vaccinia and measles viruses in mult... [Arch Neurol. 1976] - PubMed result
Oligoclonal measles virus-specific IgG antibodies ... [Scand J Immunol. 1976] - PubMed result
Measles virus antibodies in serum and cerebrospina... [J Neurol Sci. 1975] - PubMed result
Antibodies against three different structural comp... [Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand B Microbiol Immunol. 1973] - PubMed result
The occurrence of measles antigen precipitating an... [Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand B Microbiol Immunol. 1973] - PubMed result
Identification of different measles virus-specific... [Infect Immun. 1972] - PubMed result
Measles antibodies in patients with multiple scler... [Neurology. 1970] - PubMed result
Measles antibodies in the cerebrospinal fluid of p... [Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1971] - PubMed result
7. Vaccines and Autism
Abnormal measles-mumps-rubella antibodies and CNS ... [J Biomed Sci. 2002 Jul-Aug] - PubMed result we suggest that an inappropriate antibody response to MMR, specifically the measles component thereof, might be related to pathogenesis of autism
Immunological findings in autism. [Int Rev Neurobiol. 2005] - PubMed result MMR vaccination may increase risk for autism via an autoimmune mechanism in autism
Thimerosal exposure in infants and neurodevelopmen... [J Neurol Sci. 2008] - PubMed result Consistent significantly increased rate ratios were observed for autism, autism spectrum disorders, tics, attention deficit disorder, and emotional disturbances with Hg exposure from TCVs
http://www2.swinburne.edu.au/lss/sab...nts/JRS436.pdf An epidemiological analysis of the 'autism as mercury poisoning' hypothesis
Unexpected Effects of the vaccination program
Mumps epidemiology and immunity: the anatomy of a ... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2008] - PubMed result mumps outbreaks included ones with 77% to 97% of students having had 2 doses of a mumps vaccine
Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic Shingles on the rise
Herpes zoster-related hospitalizations and expendi... [Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol. 2008] - PubMed result Shingles on rise since 2001
Increase in severe pneumonia in children may be caused by vaccine - Health News, Health & Families - The Independent sero-replacement
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6571.full.pdf
A Study of Molecular Mimicry and Immunological Cross-reactivity between Hepatitis B Surface Antigen and Myelin Mimics molecular mimcry
Apnea and its possible relationship to immunizatio... [Vaccine. 2008] - PubMed result Sleep Apnea
Urinary tract diseases revealed after DTP vaccinat... [Am J Ther. 2004 Sep-Oct] - PubMed result It seems that the aforementioned pathomechanism may also be responsible for some cases of sudden infant death syndrome, which is often preceded by infection/inflammation
Epidemiology of autoimmune reactions induced by va... [J Autoimmun. 2001] - PubMed result
Give us this day our daily germs. [Immunol Today. 1998] - PubMed result
Adjuvant disease induced by mycobacteria, determin... [Agents Actions. 1976] - PubMed result
Long-term regulation of interferon production by l... [J Infect Dis. 1988] - PubMed result The study showed that the measles vaccine produced a significant long-term immune suppression
Changes within T cell receptor V beta subsets in i... [Clin Immunol Immunopathol. 1996] - PubMed result
Update: recommendations from the Advisory Committe... [MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2008] - PubMed result Seizures
Vaccination and autoimmunity-'vaccinosis': a dange... [J Autoimmun. 2000] - PubMed result temporal relationship (i.e. always 2-3 months following immunization) is impressive
Autoimmunity, environmental exposure and vaccination: is there a link? the results tend to support the hypothesis that vaccination could enhance the risk of autoimmunity in genetically susceptible individuals when exposed to certain environmental chemicals
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...6&blobtype=pdf Testing of participants in 2 national surveys demonstrates no significant decrease in hepatitis B virus infection, despite the availability of hepatitis B vaccine
Systemic polyarteritis nodosa following hepatitis ... [Eur J Intern Med. 2008] - PubMed result After reviewing the 27 cases of vasculitis after hepatitis B vaccination reported in the current literature, the authors suggest that, in some cases, vaccination may be the triggering factor for vasculitis in individuals with a genetic predisposition
Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and developmental disability in US children aged 1-9 years - Toxicological & Environmental Chemistry This study found statistically significant evidence of an association between the thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and EIS, a proxy for developmental disability.
Incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines in a pa... [Clin Drug Investig. 2004] - PubMed result An active search for subjects with suspected adverse reactions to vaccines led to the detection of reactions that are usually not reported
Using electronic medical records to enhance detect... [J Am Med Inform Assoc. 2007 Nov-Dec] - PubMed result Using electronic medical records to enhance detection and reporting of vaccine adverse events
Autoimmunity, environmental exposure and vaccinati... [Toxicology. 2004] - PubMed result the results tend to support the hypothesis that vaccination could enhance the risk of autoimmunity in genetically susceptible individuals when exposed to certain environmental chemicals
Over-immunization-an ever present problem. [Aust Fam Physician. 1976] - PubMed result
Infection, immunisation and atherosclerosis: is th... [Vaccine. 1999] - PubMed result
Atopic dermatitis is increased following vaccinati... [Acta Derm Venereol. 2003] - PubMed result
Autoimmune hazards of hepatitis B vaccine. [Autoimmun Rev. 2005] - PubMed result HBV is remarkable by the frequency, the severity and the variety of its complications, some of them probably related to a mechanism of molecular mimicry leading to demyelinating diseases, and the others reproducing the spectrum of non-hepatic manifestations of natural hepatitis B
Multiple sclerosis and hepatitis B vaccination: ad... [Med Hypotheses. 2006] - PubMed result HBV has an unusual potential to induce central neurological disorders amongst others unwanted side-effects
Acute encephalopathy followed by permanent brain i... [Pediatrics. 1998] - PubMed result a causal relationship between measles vaccine and encephalopathy may exist as a rare complication of measles immunization
http://www.sarnet.org/lib/ATT01062.pdf Neurotoxic effects of thimerosal at vaccines doses on the encephalon and development in 7 days-old hamsters
Anaphylaxis from the influenza virus vaccine. [Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 2008] - PubMed result
Monitoring the safety of annual and pandemic influ... [Expert Rev Vaccines. 2008] - PubMed result Any vaccine used against an influenza strain of pandemic potential will have an incompletely described safety profile
Vaccine-derived polioviruses: is it time to stop u... [J Infect Dis. 2006] - PubMed result Vaccine-derived polioviruses: is it time to stop using the word "rare"?
An outbreak of poliomyelitis caused by type 1 vacc... [J Infect Dis. 2006] - PubMed result An outbreak of poliomyelitis caused by type 1 vaccine-derived poliovirus in China
The future of measles in highly immunized populati... [Am J Epidemiol. 1984] - PubMed result However, despite short-term success in eliminating the disease, long-range projections demonstrate that the proportion of susceptibles in the year 2050 may be greater than in the prevaccine era
DTP with or after measles vaccination is associate... [Vaccine. 2007] - PubMed result The case fatality was increased for children who had received DTP with or after measles vaccine compared with children who had received measles vaccine as the most recent vaccine
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7560/174 Most of the children in our study had received a full set of primary immunisations. Although immunisation failed to protect them against pertussis
Infectious episodes following diphtheria-pertussis... [Clin Pediatr (Phila). 1988] - PubMed result an increase in infectious episodes seems to occur in infants during the month following administration of this vaccine
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7574/912 Influenza vaccination: policy versus evidence... Evidence from systematic reviews shows that inactivated vaccines have little or no effect on the effects measured
Protracted fever with cellulitis-like reaction in ... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2008] - PubMed result protracted fever with a cellulitis-like reaction after PPV23 vaccination is not rare in pediatric patients
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/08-054692.pdf Incidence of pneumonia is not reduced by pneumococcal conjugate vaccine European Federation of Internal Medicine Published by Elsevier B.V. European Journal of Internal Medicine Volume 19, Issue 5, July 2008, Pages 383-385 Brief report -- We suggest that, in some cases, vaccination may be the triggering factor for autoimmune and neurological disturbances in genetically predisposed individuals and physicians should be aware of this possible association Vaccines and increase in other pathogens
Five-fold increase in pediatric parapneumonic empy... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2008] - PubMed result
https://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/344/6/403 The number of episodes attributed to serotypes that are cross-reactive with those in the vaccine was reduced by 51 percent, whereas the number of episodes due to all other serotypes increased by 33 percent.
Community-wide vaccination with the heptavalent pn... [Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2004] - PubMed result The proportion of Gram-negative bacteria became 2-fold more frequent than S. pneumoniae
Effect of pneumococcal conjugate vaccine on nasoph... [Pediatrics. 2006] - PubMed result The increase in bacterial colonization of the nasopharynx during AOM could be associated with an increase in AOM pathogens and theoretically can predispose PCV7-immunized children with AOM to a higher rate of antibiotic treatment failure or recurrent AOM
Colonisation by Streptococcus pneumoniae and Staph... [Lancet. 2004] - PubMed result These findings suggest a natural competition between colonisation with vaccine-type pneumococci and S aureus, which might explain the increase in S aureus-related otitis media after vaccination
JAMA -- Abstract: Emergence of a Multiresistant Serotype 19A Pneumococcal Strain Not Included in the 7-Valent Conjugate Vaccine as an Otopathogen in Children, October 17, 2007, Pichichero and Casey 298 (15): 1772 In the years following introduction of PCV7, a strain of S pneumoniae has emerged in the United States as an otopathogen that is resistant to all FDA-approved antibiotics for treatment of AOM in children
Double post
I should also mention that I do not buy into the AVN or Whale. These are scaremongering sites with no substance.
Thank you :hug::
I'm a strong willed person who can back up my reasons. I won't ever feel guilt not vaxxing but I know I'd never live with myself if I physically took my babies into the Dr and deliberately made them pay with a bad reaction.
I'll take my risks with nature
Well, some decisions simply are wrong. I think we can probably all agree on that much. I know some people think that "passing judgement" is unacceptable behaviour. I think we actually take that "rule" way too far. Some decisions are simply wrong, and in those situations it isn't right to just let them pass because otherwise one might be thought to be being judgemental.
To me, it depends on the context. If someone is making what I think is a bad decision for wrong reasons I will tell them that is what I think. That's me being honest.
Mummato2 thanks for the list of articles. It would take me some time to go through them, obviously, and time is short at the moment. I assume you've already read them all? Can you please crop the list to those that refer to vaccines used in Australia at the moment, and can you please crop off the articles like the first couple that don't have anything to do with vaccination at all?
The first couple of articles are simply tracking a worldwide trend, that is unexplained, and don't mention vaccination at all. Those are irrelevant to this discussion. The next couple seem to refer to a vaccination used in other countries some 15 years ago, so that's not important to us here at the moment. After reading that far I've run out of time to wade through such a long list to get to the stuff that actually matters to us now, so it would be great if you can help with the research you have already done.
It would be great if you could also summarise the following question, because I assume you have already pulled out the relevant data from each article while doing your own research to make your own decisions about vaccination : even assuming that all of the adverse reactions (diabetes etc) listed in the above research are actually happening - ie assuming that this research has been confirmed as correct, what is the risk of adverse reaction from the vaccinations compared with the risk of adverse reactions from catching the diseases. That's the nub of the issue here. Nobody, certainly not me, denies that some adverse reactions from vaccines occur. Question is whether those are more or less likely than the adverse reactions (like death...) that definitely are caused by the diseases we vaccinate against.
Let me be clear: vaccines can be and need to be improved. That is not in doubt, and that is why such research as you have listed is being done. But the question is and has always been whether an imperfect vaccine is less dangerous than the disease it protects against. For the vaccines offered to us here, that is certainly the case. Which is why I and my family are and will continue to be vaccinated.
Anyway, now I need to get up and embark on a far riskier endeavour than vaccinating: I have to cross our suburban street and take the dog to the park...
So much for me staying out :rolleyes:
:
now while I agree on my own with what you are saying......I think that you need to take a step back and allow others to make their own chioces without a judgmental or snide comment. Its almost as if your taking it personally. Take a step back and listen to why others think the opposite of you instead of yelling over the top of everyone.
Just because you think your right, doesnt mean the other person is wrong. We are all doing the best we can to nuture our children.
that's fine Tenar - lots of us think your decisions are wrong too, but we don't need to be so rude or snide about it....
Well we are all entitled to our opinions and even to express them, aren't we? This is a forum that encourages discussion of different approaches to parenting. I am not aware that I have been rude (I am certainly forthright, though), and I am sorry if you are offended by my opinions. I am reading every response to this and other similar threads with great care, because I want to better understand why people make the choices they make.
At least I haven't resorted to calling anybody names... :)
And of course I consider this to be, in some ways, a personal discussion. It is certainly something that I take much more seriously now I am a mother. The reason is that people's decisions not to vaccinate their children increase the chances of my child becoming ill from something she is not yet old enough to have the vaccination for. Reaching and maintaining herd immunity is the point of the exercise.
I think you need to understand that even if all children were vaccinated, they can be carriers of virus' and therefore your child would still get sick... even if all children were vaccinated.:
The reason is that people's decisions not to vaccinate their children increase the chances of my child becoming ill from something she is not yet old enough to have the vaccination for. Reaching and maintaining herd immunity is the point of the exercise.
My DD1 has autism, she was vaccinated through a delayed schedule and we had a special MMR vaccination. DD2 had one vaccination at 6 months and no more since. She does not have autism.
I know from my personal experiences that vaccination is not always "the cure". I also know how it feels to see lives lost due to the diseases that are vaccinated against. I work as a vet nurse, and see dogs and cats with diseases which can be vaccinated against. I also have seen the misuse of vaccination in the industry.
I don't think its anyones place to say if its "right" or "wrong". I really don't. So if your choice is to vaccinate, that is your informed decision. If someone elses choice is to not vaccinate, that is their informed choice.
My heart goes out to anyone dealing with severe heath issues and of course to parents of children on the autism spectrum. I can only imagine how difficult it is and how you long for answers and solutions.
But, anecdotal evidence (as compared to rigorous scientific evidence) has been shown time and time again to be a very poor basis for decision making. And in fact, making decisions based on anecdotal evidence can be dangerous and do more harm than good.
I fully acknowledge that science doesn't have all the answers. Inanna your personal health issues and the cancer cluster at ABC Brisbane are stunning examples of that. But I would say that exceptions like those examples are actually very rare and for the most part science gets it right a vast majority of the time.
As some of you have said, it's all about risk assessment isn't it? What are the risks of giving a vaccination compared to not giving a vaccination. Unfortunately so much of the evidence that seems to persuade people not to vaccinate is anecdotal, not scientific and not peer reviewed. I think that people should be very careful of this sort of information and that it is not the best evidence for making decisions about risk.
I personally don't understand why people seem to have latched on to vaccination. There seems to be so many other more plausible culprits to me? Smoking, drinking, drug taking, eating food with pesticide residues and who know what kind of preservatives and additives, trans-fats. Not to mention the chemicals exuded from paints, carpets, plastics, etc, etc, etc.... The modern world really.
and that my dear is how everyone feels.:
Thankyfully you havent had to worry about the joys of autism as many others have. I understand now why people do not immunise due to fear of having a spectrum child. Chicken pox, measles ect only stay a short while.....autism is a life long sentence.
I have been watching this thread, and the discussion with interest.
I have a question, I hope no-one minds me asking just out of curiosity.
For those of you who believe there is a link between vaccinations & autism, is it the MMR vax that you believe is most to blame? Or all of them?
A lot of the talk has been about the chickenpox vax, but I have heard people blaming vaccinations for years before this vaccine was introduced. Do you believe that this particular vax poses a risk? What about the other diseases people vaccinate against?
ETA - I'm not holding an opinion here - I think a lot of you have made some great points - I'm just trying to keep up with you all :lol: & understand a bit more.
Jasp - for us, I had immunised DD up until 12 months as, after reaserching I believed that it was the right decision for us. Shortly before DD was due for her MMR there was the case of the 8 yr old who feel into a catatonic autistic state in the US and was awarded millions in compensation. This got me thinking again and after discussing with our dr and consultation with the currently available articles our dr advised us that in our situation with a strong family history of autism he would not advise vaccination considering none of the articles currently saying there was no link have looked indepth to vaccination and family history.
We will not be vaccinating against anything else either until research proves one way or the other.
I believe the chicken pox vax was brought up as it is mentioned in the press release that chicken pox is another vax that has the same additives and is given around the same time and could be a contributing factor given the scanario in the article of a "perfect storm" complex where it is the culmination of a genetic predisposition, proteins in the body of the individual, an imbalance between two amino acids and the addition of the additives in the vaccine that may trigger a reaction in some people that results in the development of autistic traits.
Mummato2 - That exhaustive list of 'references' you posts should, on the bulk, be treated with extreme caution. I randomly selected a few just to see the credentials, and in you list there are many articles that are not written by experts in their field.
One on the list is posted on a blog.
Another is written by a 'health editor'... that's code for journalist - definitely not to be confused with medical scientist.
One (may be more, I only looked a few) was written by a person specialising in 'Life & Social Sciences'. Although this contains the word 'science', it's not. not by a long shot. It's psychology. Very very very different degree to science &/or medicine
Many on the list are over 10 years old - which in the relms of science start to become 'uncitable' due to age. Where they are recent, they are usually reviews of literature of which, most of that original literature is over 10 years old.
There is a very big difference in a scientific study using raw data & a literary review (sometimes called study). The latter is not pure science, but draws conclusions from other peoples conclusions. Like a professional game of chinese whispers.
Let me state this: chose what you want in terms of vaccinations. It's your choice. I won't tell you that your decision is wrong just because it is different. But be educated about it. Don't read sensationalist garbage & expect to have the best information.
the following is one from the list that actully contains an appropriate number of references for the size of the paper (+140), but you also must consider that this particular only studied 45 hamsters - which is a fairly small population. Something else that is good is that it has 6 pages of dicussion. Never believe any article that summarises in one paragraph - as some did from that posted list.
http://www.sarnet.org/lib/ATT01062.pdf
That's enough from me.
Epacaris my love I will kindly and respectfully loudly dispute that the examples I gave are very rare... They simply are not. We don't know. I would be foolish and erroneous to say unequivocally that vaccinations can trigger ASD in susceptible children. However, I have seen enough to know that it is a distinct possibility.:
I fully acknowledge that science doesn't have all the answers. Inanna your personal health issues and the cancer cluster at ABC Brisbane are stunning examples of that. But I would say that exceptions like those examples are actually very rare and for the most part science gets it right a vast majority of the time.
I have seen a child regress into an unresponsive state within 20mins of vax. I have seen that with my eyes. No reason could be given. I know that child now is severely autistic. I saw that.
I have seen my friends child convulse from febrile convulsions & regress. She also is autistic.
I have seen other less severe reactions.
No doctor worth his degree is going to state that vaccination is not risk free. Thankfully for most children the reactions are not life altering. However, for some it appears they may be.
To use my cancer cluster at the ABC comment. Those people were told that there was no evidence, just a fluke, people get cancer. If towers caused cancer we'd all have it... yadda yadda. However, all of those that have cancer - that isn't any comfort. I believe those people who are working tirelessly to solve this mystery will uncover a truth. Do you think ABC want that to happen? Not likely as it will cost millions in compensation.
In fact I believe the compensation payouts are in negotiation. Scratch the surface and you will find countless cases where these "flukes" happen time and again...
Of course colloquial evidence isn't weighty - bu it would be very foolish for anyone to discount it.
When Imogen was to leave the RBWH I was really put through the grill for not immunising her. I was told quite truthfully if she was to contract pertussis she would almost definitely die. I chose not to immunise her. Now when she arrived at the private hospital where she was to complete her stay in special care she had routine bloods. She had a condition where she just didn't have the reserves to fight anything - more so than would be expected. The alarm bells were rung - was she immunised? NO! Thank the heavens as she likely would have become critically ill had she been. I actually cried for 3 hours after that. Shaking, crying - if I had consented to what my intuition told me I shouldn't what would have happened to my beautiful baby?
Science is wonderful but to hand our bodies and our children over to it as if on a platter is dangerous. Why? Because we are human beings. We have much more than chemicals. We have integral differences each of us. We are each unique. We have triggers that maybe the next one doesn't. That is why a perfectly "safe" injection of penicillin is fine for you - for me I have an anaphylaxis and end up on life support. (true story)...
It is an outrage Tenar for you to announce that I who have studied this subject extensively for 16 years, who has had a child react badly and has ASD - that I made the "wrong" choice.
Just as outrageous would it be to call you "wrong" for immunising. Of course you are not wrong you have made the choice that you believe is right for you. I made that choice too for my first child & it ended in hospital with strict instructions not to immunise her anymore... Interesting that "science" exempted my oldest daughter...:lol:
My son I am sure would be ASD had he been triggered. He has the hallmarks without the antisocial behaviour that his older sister displayed... I wasn't going to hand any of my other children over to the science that some love and trust so deeply. I couldn't after my experience with his sister. And so his sisters following him also.
Now, I took a chance with their health. However, for me the chance to immunise was greater.
I am not "wrong" Tenar. Nor am I an ill informed or uneducated woman. I am a very intelligent woman who is often times very conflicted about my decisions. I sometimes cringe when I read some anti vax stuff - it can get very military... Then I read the pro vax & frankly its no less so.
I will not be involved in vaccination programmes in small babies as I have no faith that what I would be giving is not going to cause long term problems.
I also know that when our vax levels reach below 30% we are at risk of large outbreaks.
Do you think Gardasil is safe??? What about the reactions to this vax that have occured? Do we know the long term issues??? The answer is no we don't. I couldn't give it to my daughter - as we just don't know.
Science has deemed safe many drugs and vaccines that have proven to be unsafe or cause terrible reactions.
Having worked in health care - man I wouldn't hand over my health or my child without asking lots of questions.
Because I know the answers are not there. When my liver ruptured and I was bleeding internally - that wasn't "supposed" to happen... My results showed I had no clotting disorder so the anticoagulants were ceased. I clotted and had a cardiac arrest - twice.
Science is a miracle - it is fabulous and I love it. But I am more than a chemical reaction - I am more than a proven theory. I am unique so what science says is right for me may kill you...
As for the claims of being "wrong" for choosing to not vaccinate. If you are the judge of that then I am wrong. But my love you would walk a very long way to find a Mother who has cried the tears of confusion, pain, conflict and worry than I... (over this issue)
It might be a "good" thing to remember that families and individuals don't choose not to vaccinate because they are ignorant. They choose to not vaccinate because they have concerns, intuition,family histories...
Don't make the burden of these choices any heavier by labelling those that feel, think & have differing knowledge than you as wrong. :hug:
We are all struggling to be the best parents we can & to make great decisions for our kids. :hug:
Inanna, I truly feel your emotions in every word you write and thank you for sharing so much of your family's story with us. I also fully and completely recognise (and so do good health professionals) the magical intuition of mothers, they just *know* when something is right and when something is wrong with or for their children.
Yes, I know Science is not perfect, there will always be risk, but I truly believe it's the best we've got. I think making decisions based on anecdotal evidence doesn't offer us any more protection from that danger at all.:
I understand what you are saying - and as always you state your opinion kindly and gently. :hug:
I agree that science is wonderful & you are right tis the best we have right now. However, whilst theey are certainly in the minority there are some practitioners of western medicine who also are cautious. Because they have personally experienced the issues that some of us have with vaccination.
I also concede that for the general populus probably immunisation will have no harmful affects. However, the issue I have is that you don't know who the general is and who the miniority is until it's done.
I am no quack - & I don't make big decisions lightly so it's been a difficult journey for me!
:yeahthat::
Absolutely these probably are also causative factors to many of the ailments that children face. One of them perhaps being ASD,
The reason why vaccination has been linked is to the large behavioural shift that occurs with some children who then go on to have an ASD diagnosis. Because large numbers of parents cried out with suspicion. This was quickly quashed by the scientists...
For every study that appears to discount the link the suspicion is still there! Why? Perhaps because there is an unfound link. Perhaps because people want an answer... However, we as a society, as a community would be gravely amiss just to say: "no way"!
Because that type of reaction discounts the thousands who have had adverse reactions to vaccination and then been diagnosed with ASD. The thousands who had marked behavioural changes post vaccination.
The assault of that injection on a newborns immune system must be massive. Injecting into that new little body a synthetic form of an illness - it's risky business... Yes, it is risky business not to also. That is an absolute truth.
Depending on how you've been bitten, what you've studied & the experiences you have you will see this differently.
Back to the environmental factors though quoted by Epacris... It could be this - this could be the reason. However, that does not make sense of the large number of children/babies who have severe and immediate reaction to vaccination who develop ASD...
History is full of examples of these links being made in folk literature to various illnesses etc & finally science being able to understand why.
A paediatrician I spoke to recently about this said: "I would be a fool to say there is no link between immunisation and autisim" he went on to say somthing to the effect of: there are too many reports, too many people claiming a link - what we do know is that more children are not affected.
That to me says it. However, how the hell do you know if you're child is going to be affected until it is... You don't. I didn't. So I chose no for my others. It still creates unrest for me as I also see the benefits of immunisation.
I just couldn't with all conscious call those who do wrong and those who do right. It is not that simple. :hug:
I just vote for more investment in research! research that works towards creating vaccines that carry as little risk as possible and research that then questions that research! that's what it's all about imo!
There is a need for hard raw data collection as well as research that questions it. Quantitative/qualitative research approaches are also about interpretation of results. To infer that it is 'fact' simply because it is 'raw data' is flawed. That is why we also need 'literature reviews' and theoretical approaches to any study (and no, it is NOT a version of 'professional chinese whispers', which is just offensive btw).
And even after the whole Lancet-gate ( :D) fiasco where Wakefield et al had to make retractions and the like of their conclusions, there still remains, even in peer-reviewed medical journals caution in applying any blanket statement that the MMR has/has no link to autism.
For example, in 2002, the Journal of Clinical Pathology published an article that described this difficult issue (in response to Wakefield's latest publication). The authors stated: "that reliable epidemiologists are content that there is no significant association between MMR and either autism or bowel inflammatory conditions. However, epidemiology is a pretty blunt tool and the studies done do not rule out the possibility that there may be “at risk” groups where a real link between MMR and autism/bowel inflammatory conditions exists." (Morris A and Aldulaimi D 2002. 'New evidence for a viral pathogenic mechanism for new variant inflammatory bowel disease and development disorder?', Journal of Clinical Pathology Vol. 55(2):83.
I think, IMHO that if I had a familial link to autism or the like it would be the 'yeah but' that would have me questioning, and in most cases for people where there's doubt there's no doubt.
In our case, our daughter is vaccinated with a delay schedule on the MMR. We did this based on our own summations and that has given us peace of mind. So at the age of 4, like the rest of her peers that are getting their boosters, she will have her first. And trust me, just because we made that decision doesnt mean that we have stopped reading or maintaining an interest in current vaccination trends as a whole. I want the best for my child, like we all do and I am beating a path that feels right for us.
Thank you Saram.
I think that sums it up , it's what I am seeing in this thread, there are some very well considered opinions here & I can see the POV of most of you & where you are coming from.:
yep... I'm with you on that one.:
This is an emotive subject - one close to the hearts of those debating from either side of the fence (or hovering on it).
I think it's timely to remind everyone that whilst we welcome differing opinions, it is always not acceptable to disparage another parent's choices.
This can be an informative discussion - please ensure you think before you post, and don't criticise what someone else has chosen in the best interests of their child. We all want what's best for our kids, and interactions like this can help us decide what is best. :)
I've just read this thread... it's very interesting and just want to thank everyone for their contributions. I really find it fascinating to hear so may diverse ideas.
Speaking for myself maybe I am a bit of a fence sitter. I generally have faith in medical science... although I don't tend to follow advice without questioning it and using my intuition as Inanna importantly mentioned.
I see a parallel argument to the vax/autism debate and why I have choosen to avoid red meat proteins. I am always being told that eating red meat is good for you... "we are meant to eat it" etc. I agree that it doesn't seem to harm the majority of the popluation. But increasingly i am hearing of people who have recently been diagnosed with an inability to process some animal proteins and intuitively i feel that i might be on that spectrum. Mention it to my GP and I am laughed out the door. But i know my own body. To justify my decision i have mentioned ethics... which at least tends to stops people rallying against me... it's more plausible IYKWIM than trying to explain that when I ate red meat I didn't feel right. It was hard as a 15yo to put into words how I was feeling.
I have respect for science and medicine... the topics fascinate me. But I know that if I had failed to listen to my intuitive voice on many occassions my life would be the poorer for it.
Special mention to Paradise's post too... I also agree that for some people on the autism spectrum it must be hard to hear how tradgic it is to be "them".... in a similar way that Down sufferers often struggle to hear reports of women terminating Down pregnancies (no judgement on my behalf BTW).it's a very sensitive issue indeed. I just thought Paradise's point was being a bit over looked.
Thanyou everyone for your empassioned posts... this is the type of discussion that makes BB so valuable. :thumbsup:
Inanna, just a quickie because indeed I have had enough of this thread for today: I wasn't referring to your decision when I commented earlier and it certainly seems that given the medical situation of your kids, your choice not to vaccinate might have been well made (I don't know enough about the details to comment further, obviously). It is absolutely clear from your writing that you are intelligent and passionate about this subject and that you have done a lot of reading about it.
In my opinion, the fact that some people cannot safely be vaccinated makes it all the more important that the majority of people are. Such individuals have no protection other than herd immunity, so herd immunity is much more important for their safety than it is for the rest of us. That's actually one of the reasons why my husband and I are vaccinated and why we are vaccinating our daughter, even for some things that she has no great risk of getting. My husband and I believe that we have a social responsibility to do that.
Tenar, on this last point - I agree with you absolutely that herd immunity is so vital for people those who are likely to react to vaccinations. The main problem seems to be that currently we're not able to predict who is who. I am another who is all for more research, particularly research not funded by a pharmaceutical company (or any body linked to one).
Don't get me started about the general lack of funding for scientific research in this country... it's a sad fact that in many industries, the only way for researchers to access funding is through the large corporations with an interest in the research. It's true all over, from mining to materials technology to pharmeceuticals. Not an ideal state of affairs, by any means.
The lack of funding for the reasearch we need instead of the research large pharma companies want is why i don't give money to Cancer Research UK - they give money to support research for new drugs, which is great, but the companies then license the drugs to make generics difficult and so the poorer people in the world die for the lack of $$$ rather than an available treatment. Horrible.
Re: Tenar's post which i found myself strongly agreeing to - i guess because of my literal mind i didn't find it offensive. When i saw "wrong" i didn't think it was a judgement call, just that given the evidence KNOWN it is a very illogical decision. Of course, not everyone relies on logic in their decisions (parenting or otherwise), but if you do it's really hard to understand why other people seem to be dong incredibly illogical things, y/k? I don't actually know if tenar is a scientist but when you have a mind like that you are taught NOT to think emotively or use anecdotal evidence when making certain decisions. Lots of times we see posts over on Relationships or similar where people are making utterly illogical emotive decisions which may end up being to their own detriment and people tell them so. The topic of vaccination is close to some hearts and the topic of ASD's also, but logically does that exempt them from the same logical examination and critique? Unfotunately when you have a logical mind it isn't only when other people want to hear it, it's all the time.
I believe what you have written Innana, about your children, i believe what all of you have written about YOUR children. But it would be completely illogical for me to make decisions on vaccination based on that. I do not have your children, i have MY child. I cannot stand upon your opinion, based on YOUR child, and make a decision, to me it feels like building castles on sand. I must make my own decision, i can only believe scientific evidence (and my criteria, like tenar's i think, is very strict, as to what is scientifically valid and what isn't). And so far the scientific evidence tells me it is safer to vax than not. DD is already showing autistic traits, some of which i have seen in her personality since pregnancy (sensitivity to sound being one - she would literally jump in the womb if a loud noise happened nearby). Besides my own personal preference not to try to avoid or cure that part of her, i simply cannot find evidene that vaccines could have or did bring that about. I see a lot of evidence in my family for hereditary factors being relevant for us, and for ME and MY child it makes no logcal sense that her parent and grandparent are autistic, but she only is because of vaccines. Any more than it makes sense for me to say my great-granddad, my gran and my dad have curly hair but *I* only have it because of vaccines.
In regard to the towers/cancers story, i remember a huge fuss being made a few years ago at my dad's work because there were clusters of childhood leukemia around large powerstations and high voltage cable-paths (my dad was an engineer at a power company). When the studies (which confirmed the increased prevalence of childhood leukemia's) were completed they found one common factor to the regions of higher-incidence...influx of population. There were people, families, living right UNDER the lines in some remote areas who had suffered nothing. The company who build the stations and erected the lines to take the power onto the grid used 4 or 5 labour companies based in Eastern European countries, and those areas where the stations and lines had gone up had had an influx of people from those areas living and working in them. Eventually an apparent link was found - unfamiliar infection, very common in those countries, but utterly unfamiliar to the local kids immune systems, seemed to be causing a mutation in SOME children which later led to childhood leukemia. By the time the science had shown this there were already annual demonstrations to take down the stations and lines (which continue still) because people believe it is the power station itself which is causing the effect. Science says it probably isn't but it's hard to get funding to go on. Several studies on clusters of childhood cancers have foun similar things - that certain outbreaks of infection seem to be a strong factor. One day perhaps there will be a vaccine to help protect children against those certain kinds of infection which can cause leukemia.
From a personal (and of course, logical, it's me after all!) POV i think it's for the best that some parents do not vaccinate. As i have said before, i have no interest in trying to prevent autism. To each there own on that one. For my child to be protected by vaccines the infections need to remain relatively stable (that is, not mutate to form new strains which might be more dangerous and would need more vaccines). For the status quo to remain some children need to get ill. Likewise for the majority of children to stay well and to prevent hundreds or thousands of deaths from these illnesses, as there were in the past, there needs to be some herd immunity. I guess for me it is sad that some children die of vaccine reactions, and it is sad that some die of these preventable diseases, but either way your kid might die. I have chosen what science and logic tells me is the less risky risk, which gives my child the smaller chance of death. Other people with other children will have different levels of risk to examine.
Well of course you wouldn't make a decision based on one persons experience, and that's the thing, Deb isn't the only one to experience this there are many, many parents that believe/know what happened with their own children. Lots of them from the medical field themselves.
I can't dismiss this. I don't understand why it's not logical to take in more than just scientific evidence.
No one is saying vaccines soley cause Autism and it quite clear in your case (as with MANY) that it's simply a family trait/s.
And you know that the spectrum is broad - how would you feel if dd (or yourself) were on the furthest end of the Autism scale? It's probably easier for you to say you wouldn't change a thing about dd than it would be for a parent whose child is locked in the far end or close to it?
Completely OT - Bec your recent posts are confusing the crap outta me! It seems you think you can only think in a logical fashion when so many post of yours over the years have been so passionate and emotive...and they also elicit such an emotive response from those that read them, touchy emotional subject and the like...ah I dunno :p- maybe I'm being simplistic or maybe it because you haven't been around for awhile, maybe I'm remembering it wrong...I'm going back to bed :D
Ok, ok, ok I tried...but it's still not sitting well.
Bec your post is offensive in about 8 million ways and you know it. I think the main one is that you think it's ok to speak like this because you "have a logical mind".
Oh Please! start showing a bit of respect. It does not matter one squirt if you think vaccination is the best thing ever and is your social responsibility to have your children vaccinated to the hilt. What matters is that you should be able to agree to disagree because the parents who have taken the path to not vaccinate, or to delay vaccinating have chosen to do so because of their own individual and unique situation and as a fellow parent you should respect that decision even if you don't understand it or agree with it.
Not one single person who agrees with what was in the OP sees this as definative and conclusive proof that there is a link, only that this is the starting point and if further research was to be done that one day there could be a proven link found. It doesn't even mean that having definite proof will make a difference because you simply cannot know which child will have a reaction that will put them on the spectrum. But it will probably give some comfort to the parents of children who have been affected by it and prove that they weren't just ill-educated crazy people for all these years ;)
I myself do think that the link is weak at best, and there needs to be a hell of a lot of research done to prove it either way, but would I show complete disrespect to parents who did think that there was a link? Not on your life because I am a better person than that. I truly believe these parents 100% when they say that they think their child's ASD is directly related to having vaccinations. And if you don't, then thats fine too but please do not call them ill-educated or tell them that they are wrong and their children are more likely to die.
Here here :clap::
Im over people using their 'ways' as an excuse to attack and belittle other's parenting choices!
Try sitting back and reading and trying to understand why those are not in agreeance with your rather then attack their 'logical' thinking. SO if someone isnt agreeance with a certain way then you are a brainless, selfish fart! Come on...please try and understand people's reason and be respectful in the process!!!!
You might just actually learn something, like I have!!!