After having Lucy, before leaving the hospital they gave me the whooping cough vax. Is that everybodies experience?
Printable View
After having Lucy, before leaving the hospital they gave me the whooping cough vax. Is that everybodies experience?
DM they wouldn't have givn your daughter the Pertussis vaccine. It would have been Hep B.
Have a little check in her book - :hug:
It would have been that and the Vitamin K vaccine - again one that is slightly dubious. Or did you mean they gave it to you, you had the vaccination? I never had that but then maybe that's what they are doing now?
Trill and Inanna... I think they now give new parents the whooping cough vaccine/booster? It's free apparently? That may be what DM means?
Yeah Leash, I think I remember reading something about that a while back in the paper.
Aaah Qld health have begun to do that I think you're right Leasha...
Most babies who contract Pertussis contract it from their parents or another adult. So this would be why...
Yeah ME, I got it ;) Another friging needle, HATE them. My mid wife gave it to me...
With the ingredients also being found in some foods etc I think there's a big difference between consuming a food and getting the chemical directly injected into your body.
using 'smilies' that roll their eyes & poke out their tongues isn't necessarily helpful to having an adult conversation on a very emotive issue.:
Maz- As for ingredients & additives - I eat food every day without knowing what those little codes at the tail end of the ingredients are. Also, much of the food production processes remain a complete mystery to me. One of my biggest mysteries is bleaching of flour. I'm certain that chemicals are used in that to do it, and I'm also sure these chemicals are bad for me. But I have never cooked a cake with unbleached flour, and never will (I'm quite certain - but do use organic where possible). But these chemicals (just read a few pages: azodicarbonamide, Organic peroxides, Calcium peroxide, Nitrogen dioxide, Benzoyl peroxide, & Chlorine dioxide) aren't listed as ingredients because they are only used as processing, and don't form the bulk of the flour. I think you will find that the vaccine ingredients (on bulk - not all) are used in the same way.
Yes - injecting a baby with 0.1-0.5ml of vaccine (per dose) to some sounds harsh, but almost everything you eat in your pregnancy, as long as it enters the blood stream, will be passed through the placenta to your child. That includes traces of the chemicals used in processing that isn't listed on your pre-processed food. You child is already exposed to many of those chemicals through you.
Now I can see the next question - why add more chemicals? Well, this is where that wonderful emotive & extremely personal choice comes in... do you think the risk associated with small amount of chemicals in 0.5ml of vaccine outweighs the risk of disease & debiliation from infection?
Again - your choice. As long as you & your partner are comfortable with it, i expect neither option to be deadly in the short-term.
Entreat - OMG now im gonna rethink everythig I put into my mouth :ROFL: but I see what you mean with this, totally get it.
Isnt it a shame how with technology and trying to make things more time effective and better all round, that we are slowly going backwards. Its a shame that basic foods have got bleach in them to make them look more attractive to buy. I wonder if people in 3rd world nations would worry if their flour is bleached or not.
I have to ask then, if a BFing mother isnt immunised how effective is her immune system that she is then passing on to her child?
Maz - yep... this is my point. Once you see what we have been subjecting ourselves to (and our children), I begin to think I shoud learn to garden & eat soley out of that... I didn't even go into the chemicals in packaging... eek! But then I tell myself to get real. even my basil looks sick, what chance do I have for a family-sustaining garden!? in the desert no less...
This is part of an email I sent to MIL a little while ago - I think it was after the famous Channel 7 "report" earlier in the year.
"Measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis B, and the whole panoply of childhood diseases are a far less serious threat than having a large fraction (say 10%) of a generation afflicted with learning disability and/or uncontrollable aggressive behaviour because of an impassioned crusade for universal vaccination.......Public policy regarding vaccines is fundamentally flawed. It is permeated by conflicts of interest. It is based on poor scientific methodology (including studies that are too small, too short, and too limited in populations represented), which is, moreover, insulated from independent criticism. The evidence is far too poor to warrant overriding the independent judgements of patients, parents, and attending physicians, even if this were ethically or legally acceptable." --Association Of American Physicians & Surgeons
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good." - Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the US Federal Drug Admin.)
"Among school age children, (measles) outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98%. These outbreaks have occurred in all parts of the country, including areas that had not reported measles for years." -Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 29/12/1989.
On Whooping Cough –
"Dutch scientists are struggling to identify the exact cause of an epidemic of whooping cough that has swept throughout the country despite vaccination rates as high as 96%. Similar problems are also being reported from Norway and Denmark." -British Medical Journal, 1998.
"Only after realising that routine immunisations were dangerous did I achieve a substantial drop in infant death rates. The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine... it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage. In susceptible infants, it knocks their immune systems about, leading to irreparable brain damage, or severe attacks or even deaths from diseases like pneumonia or gastro-enteritis and so on." --Dr. Kalokerinos, M.D.
Now Japan has changed their vaccination policy, they don’t start until children are 2 years old and the death rate dropped considerably. According to Australia’s immunization schedule, babies are pumped with no less than 21 vaccs (and all the considerable CRAP they contain) by the age of 6 months. It’s far too much for a tiny body to handle. When you contract a disease normally, it is filtered through your nose/lungs to a point and your body gets a warning and a chance to prepare for what’s to come. Injecting live and killed viruses directly into the bloodstream just cannot be the answer.
This bothers me –
"Autism may be a disorder linked to the disruption of the G-alpha protein, affecting retinoid receptors in the brain. A study of sixty autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by inserting a G-alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the D.P.T. vaccine, into genetically at-risk children." --Mary N. Megson, M.D.
And this
"Every day new parents are ringing us. They all have the same tragic story. Healthy baby, child, teenager, usually a boy, given the DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus) or DT (diphtheria and tetanus), MMR or MMR booster followed by a sudden fall or slow, but steady decline into autism or other spectrums disorder."--The Hope Project (Ireland)
xoxoxo
I'm biting my tongue on that. channel 7...
It is irrelevant what channel it's on Entreat - it's the quotations that are important.
These people are not ill educated - they like thousands of others have a story to tell. I have learnt never to be so sure of myself or an opinion that I am smug. For therein lies a danger that we don't open to the possibility that there maybe something that we don't know or that we can learn...
I guess the difference for me is that you are definitely going to put that stuff into your child's body, but your child may not ever get that illness if you leave them unvaccinated kwim? It's like a 100% chance of having those chemicals in your body against the much smaller percentage chance of ever catching the illness.
to make it clear - the information in my post had nothing to do with Channel 7. It was the "report" that triggered yet another round of questions as to why I choose no vacc.
back to the original posti answered tongue in cheek :lol: .. cos we have 2 of these threads atm:
Im just wondering why some people dont?
yet lots of vaxers seem to be answering their reasons FOR vaxing??
:dunno:
You're right Inanna - the channel is irrelevant. The fact that all of 'current affairs & community interest' programs have a vested interest in producing alarming & sensationalist tripe is relevant. They are journalists collecting information to use on a pariticular angle that will gain them ratings. From ratings, they have businesses vying for advertising space - which is where the money comes in.
My point: the more frightening/outragious the claims, the more ratings. They are ensuring their income by not presenting a balanced story. Who wants to hear them say, "the world is lovely & nothing at all went wrong today". Vaccinations (& teh risks of) are a hot & emotional topic, and an obvious choice for them is to seek out anecdotal opinions from sources that will support their angle.
Again - look at the age of the 'references'. 1989??? I was 9 years old! ya don't think we've made some medical science since then? And that two-sentence quote mentions nothing of areas with poor vaccination coverage (and the severity of the outbreak).
This is my point.
The 7 program was FOR vaccination. Those quotes aren't from that, as Lulu said.
No I don't think much has changed - it's the THEORY that is my point. That certainly hasn't changed. Have the vacc's changed much?
Did some of these quotes come from peer reviewed blah blahs?
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good." - Dr. J. Anthony Morris (formerly Chief Vaccine Control Officer at the US Federal Drug Admin.)
This isn’t worth a teeny tiiiny bit of consideration?
ah, I've read all of these threads & for a moment forgot what I was even going to say LOL. So much info, going around & around & around.........getting dizzy!!!!
So here's my small take on things, take it as you wish (i'm a little sadden some people thing it's ok to tell people they are "wrong" or not "the norm" for their choices...but whatever)............
MY CHILD/REN.....MY CHOICE!!!!! and ditto goes for you & everyone else!!!!! some may make "seemingly wrong" choices some may make "ill informed choices" some may make "well informed" choices. At the end of the day YOUR CHOICE!!!! we can ask "why" to get some info but you'll never get the answer you want if you don't find it out for yourself. We can sure ask to get some conversation flow going, to get some direction or perhaps often some desperate help but still at the end of it all YOU make the CHOICE!!! we will all have our own opinions etc to why we choose something, some of us so strong willed we will "force feed it to others" or get "nasty" about it with passion without realising. But all I can say is YOU CHOOSE & WHY....because it's the choice YOU made.
And my other little bit to say that may be viewed wrong.....like anything we debate, for example to Circumcise or not to. It's not Illegal not to so therefore you are given a choice aren't you???? so unless they make it mandatory that you MUST Vaccinate, you MUST Circumcise, You Must use cloth nappies & so on......we are free to choose our own way. If it was that clear cut that you "should" vaccinate or that obviouse it was too "dangerous" to vaccinate it would either be mandatory or not available. Just IMO.
Goodluck with YOUR decision.
i think people should be more educated on the fact that they DO have a choice when I had DD1 it was made out to me that the immunisations were compulsory i never got told i didnt have a choice it was always dont forget Claire needs her shots at 12 months etc.
It would be interesting to group all these opinions into a pros and cons list for vaxing
I was talking to my dad (a GP) about all this today.
He is alarmed at how little the community know about vaccinations, because, since the introduction of MCHN mass vaccination days, fewer and fewer people actually go to the GP for vax. It is sad, because the GP actually has a lot of info on vaccinations. I know people want to save money by going to the MCHN, but the council receives money from the govt for those vax days, and I feel they do little to help parents make a decision. I hate the cattle call, rush in and out and the little information that is given. No wonder people are turning away in droves. It feels like a one-size policy...and it is. So why not go to the GP and ask about the vaccinations that YOUR child might benefit from. They're not all fanatlically pro-vax and many have opinions about variations to the schedule.
A couple of things dad told me, that I didn't know:
To practice medicine, nursing, in fact any health professions in Australia, you must be fully vaccinated.
The Hep B vax was introduced from birth because the govt is trying to reduce Hep B, which has steadily risen since the most recent wave of migration. It is alarmingly apparent in many parts of our community, especially hospitals. I know...babies aren't a risk group (unless they're drug addicts or into sex lol), but they are members of our community who may need to use hospital etc. we can't live in a bubble.
The vaccinations prior to 6 months are mainly for bacterial infections (barring the pertussis) because bmilk and placental antibodies don't protect the baby against bacterias in the same way as viral infections.
From 12 months the placental (IgM) antibodies have started receding, so bub now has only their own immune system to help them. Dad says this is why it is vital the 12 month ones are done promptly, because the baby is starting to explore the world more fully...they need all the help they can get.
Breastfeeding is not a substitute for vaccinations. Breastmilk does boost children's immune systems, but it cannot magically create T-cells in the blood that can target infectious diseases.
As for the autism link. Sadly, so far it is just anectdotal. I know that doesn't help parents desperately searching for an answer.
Finally, vaccinated children CAN pass on strains of the disease to other children. Scary. Yes. While they are generally milder, unvaccinated children can contract this disease, and can often spur a mutation, which then re-infects everyone (which is how outbreaks in vaccinated communities occur).
As a society, I think we need to make a decision, because while ever there are people in both camps, we actually pose a risk to each other.
I was at a playgroup meeting recently and a mum told me how her little one had rubella recently - he was unvaxed. She was saying it was mild etc. BUT all I could think about was the pregnant women she might have been in contact with before it was diagnosed...9 in 10 babies exposed to the virus in the first 10 weeks have severe congenital abnormalities.
I am not offering my child as a matyr to the cause, but surely vaccination is a community issue as well as a personal one?
Thats why I started the thread ;) When I had Annabelle and even now with Lucy. At MCHN appointments I get " So her vax are due next visit, what date suits you?":
Its never " So are you getting her vaxs next visit?"
Anna- thanks for your info ;)
:yeahthat:
I posted pretty much the same in another thread... I am in much the same boat as you DM & I think it's fantastic to have a forum where these things can be discussed & people can share their opinions & experiences.
I really like hearing all sides of the topic, it makes for an interesting & thought provoking read :)
I like the idea of a pros / cons list. Could you do that though? there seems to be a LOT to consider & not all of it applies to everyone...
i was wondering that too whether it could be done but for people sitting on the fence it gives all the info in one place instead of reading through pages and pages and even if it doesnt apply to them it may to someone else and then all the info/opinions is there regardless
anna- my thoughts exactly.
Isn't vaccination one reason why polio has been pretty much wiped out??
Anna you have raised very valid points.
I understand the opinion that we have to have an above 80% immunisation rate to protect "the herd".. I too lament over this - however not at the peril of my kids. That has been a choice I have made.
I am a nurse & I am not vaccinated. I have a zero sero conversion on HepB and I haven't been vaxed for many others. Not one employer has ever asked for my vax record. Of course HepB - and after multiple vax I don't have immunity... I had chicken pox as a child and measles and rubella and mumps! But as I said I have not ever been asked. I would imagine my childhood illnesses has not afforded me lifelong cover for these illnesses though so I am likely at risk.
If vaccination rates drop below a certain level, diseases currently controlled by vaccination will become more common in our society in both un-vaccinated and vaccinated people. Some people with the disease will only experience mild symptoms but some will be severely affected and some will die. The more common the disease becomes, the more likely it is that some people will affected at the worse end of the disease spectrum.:
I vaccinate because of all the reasons Anna has stated and because I am absolutely, truely THANKFUL that vaccinations exist so that my child does not have to suffer the full extent of the diseases they are designed to prevent.
I think that vaccinations are a community choice, not just a personal one. Your choices affect me & my child.
Actually no that isn't correct:
NO ONE schools, daycare etc NO ONE has the right to refuse your child an education.
You sign a "conscientious objector" form from Centrelink, get a Dr to sign it basically saying they've explained the risks of non-vaxxing and then you enrol your child.
IF there is a vaccine preventable outbreak, your child MUST be kept home for the quarantine period (which I'd rather have anyway)
I can see the viewpoint that vaccinations are a community responsibility. But how can one reconcile that when their child has reacted severely to vaccination or when the evidence suggests that it is not healthy?
I actually don't believe that injecting small children with vaccines is "the best" for a community. There are countries (Japan, Scandanavia) where it is thought that it is not safe to vaccinate young babies...
Why is our "community" so sure that it is the only safe way... When others it is thought not so safe until much older?
I think it could sound a little dismissive it is a "community choice".. When some in that community have very real fears about the safety of these injections for their children.
The immunisation rate for MMR is now at around 50%... Despite campaigns to immmunise. I think we need to ask why is this so? Why do so many families have so many questions and concerns? Why are there these links?
It is a choice that parents do not make lightly - to not immunise their children. Yet as so many have pointed out in here - many parents don't even realise they have a choice not to immunise. Many parents don't ask the questions as it is pedalled as the "right" & "best" thing for our children.
I am yet to come across a GP who is not wildy pro-vax, but I'll take your word for it Anna that there are some who aren't. Going to talk to your GP about vaccs is a lovely idea in theory......but the view is very one-sided, and often sponsored by pharmceutical companies (not saying that all HCPs fall for that ;)), and kick backs from the government for fulling vaccinating children. Oh, and vaccs at the GP should be bulk billed, so should not cost anything, like if the council does it....so I don't think that's the reason for people utilising the cattle-call system over going to their GP (I have no idea why this is the case).
I have worked in dental health for 12 years, the only contagious disease they really worry about for workers is Hep B (well, Hep C too, but there is no vacc for that one). All of my employers have asked casually if I have been vacced (it is not a requirement, simply a recommendation in my field)........after multiple attempts, and nil sero conversion, I gave up.
DM, we partially/delay vacc. I too feel very conflicted by this, but less so than if we fully vacced our DS (I think :rolleyes:). We will reassess the situation as we go, and DS will probably receive the MMR at 3 or 4, I'm not sure yet. I didn't want to want give him the Hep B shots, certainly not at birth anyhow, but the hospital scared the beejeesus out of DH, and I consented. I firmly believe that my babies are not in a risk group of contracting Hep B. Yes, DS had surgery at 8 weeks.........but does anyone really think he would have been fully protected against the disease at that age????? I really doubt he was, so the vaccine gave me no reassurance. We are yet to have the discussion, but I will be bringing it up with DH again for this baby.
As for my reasons for delaying/partially vaccing........most of them I feel are too personal to share on an online forum, but I do have concerns. If you would like more info DM, please feel free to PM me :)
yes i went and got our consious (sp) objection signed and the doctor said i was stupid and he wouldnt want his kids to go to school where mine go(that knocks out a 1/4 of all schools in our area)...as well as some other choice words
he did not talk about the vaccinations and the pros and cons he gave me his opinion on MY parenting(this was the first time i met him). I can see why lots of people esp those wanting to partially vax there kids would want to stay away from a doctor.
My dr advised us not to get our child vaccinated, or rather his exact words - "I cannot advise you not to vaccinate but if I was in your position I wouldn't be getting my child vaccinated" We have a strong family history of autism and after reveiwing current literature with him in his office and discussing the lack of significant research into the prevalence of children developing autism with a family histroy after being vaccinated he agreed it was a risk he wouldn't take. However he also said we were lucky that the community we live in has a 93% vaccination rate so we could afford to make the decision without too much risk.
We too have a conscientious objection form and we have to agree to take our kids out of school for 2 wks if a vaccinatable (is that even a word) disease breaks out in daycare/school.
Deciding not to vaccinate my DD was one of the hardest decisions I have had to make but I believe it was the right one for my particular family.
There are alternative out there to the standard vax schedule too if that makes you more comfortable, delaying, requesting specific brands or seperate vax, homeopathic vax are all options you can look into. Good luck with your decision
Aside from thinking doctors are on the take from pharmaceutical companies - why not trust a doctor you see regularly?
Saram - I can see why, if your family has a history of autism why the doctor would suggest against it. I would also be erring on the side of caution in that case.
Inanna , I think the checking of vaccination of HCP may be a new thing. My sister is a nurse (graduated about 5 years ago) and was required to get all her boosters before employment. She had to get a certificate to say she was up to date *shrug*
I am not sure what is meant by "kick backs" from the govt. There is a pool of money the govt has put aside for vaccinations, to cover the costs. If you go to the MCHN, the council gets it, if you go to the doctor, they get it, because the aim is to make vaccinations available to everyone. Its not like doctors advertise "come get vax" because they want more patients. Doctors are already overloaded, esp in rural areas.
Yes, most doctors are pro-vax. That is what they have been taught in their degree. They wouldn't BE a doctor if they didn't subscribe to the scientific literaure available...which at this stage says vax is the safest option. Doctors are also people though (well most of them lol) and you should be able to have a discussion with them about your own options.
I am sorry if you don't have a regular GP you can trust. I agree it is hard, esp in the city, but they are out there. Perhaps we could also compile a list of GP's who are more open minded?
Because other countries are looking into the links and parental concerns more seriously. In the UK, a split vaccine for MMR was created in response to parents who wanted to split it. The drug company later found this vaccine to not be profitable (now let's just remember that Pharmaceutical companies are businesses that rely on turning profits. They are not there for the good of the community) and this vaccine was removed from production.:
You know when I took Cooper for his 6 week follow up check after he was born, the Dr stood up and starting mucking about with syringes etc. When I asked her what she was doing she said "getting Cooper's vaccinations together"......:o "ummm....no, we aren't vaccinating".......she seemed personally offended and when I probed her for stats and facts, she could only spout the benefits and completely failed to mention the risks.....I think that constitutes medical negligence - but then again I have to wonder how many parents have just allowed her to vaccinate without question because Dr's and thought of as all knowing beings - when in fact they are really only fed the benefits.:
Further to that, anyone who doesn't think that Dr's get kickbacks for favouring a particular drug or company over another are kidding themselves. There are a number of different pharmaceutical companies all in competition with each other all with different brands of the same drug and then their reps pedal to Dr's and send top specialists on all expenses paid trips etc to continue to back their brand. It is a Corporate Business - don't kid yourself!
I have always said if you want to see the vaccination rate go to 100% - find a way to naturally suspend the vaccine AND offer single vaccines to parents. Do that and sit back to watch what happens.
Another thing that stuck in my head, when we were getting the Conscientious Objector form signed, I brought up the financial motivation to my Dr. He actually said "yes, it's true that pharmaceutical companies benefit from these sales, but imagine how many needles bub would have to have if it were single and staggered - almost one per month".......my response? "that should become the parents choice. When it isn't available, you have just made my choice NOT whether I consent to a single, delayed vax schedule, but whether I do or don't consent to multi vax - which is my specific issue"
All he said to that was "if only it could be that simple"
Why can't it? Why can't it be that bloody simple? How hard is it to give people choices?
.......
So basicly if there was a natural/organic/safe way to vax everybody would do so?
I found a lot of you just dont like whats in the vax. So if it were organic/natural ingredients would you then vax?